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  1. #51
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Oh hang on, no, I've seen this one. My brother does it all the time and he's ENFP; "sorry" isn't a word that comes easily to him either... It's the classic disclaimer-veiled accusation-denial, and invalidation tactic. Example:

    Well-meaning, interfering stranger:I'm not saying you're a lazy, apathetic bum [disclaimer], but shouldn't you get up and get a job?[accusative rhetorical question]
    Dude: Fuck you man, you don't even know me, and didn't you listen to all the reasons I already told you why I can't?[legitimate annoyance and indignation]
    Stranger: Hey I said I wasn't accusing you of anything [total denial of the accusation], so no need to get all touchy! [invalidation of the person's response and discrediting of their perception] I was just asking whether you knew... [morphing what was blatantly a rhetorical question into a supposedly gentle, genuine enquiry]

    Tchah... it's a good tactic, well done, bravo

    But yeah, of course there's an element of venting annoyance at other people who've done that. But I don't randomly go around venting annoyance at people for things that are nothing to do with anything they said or did, that other people have. There's always got to be some reason, something that I'm responding to, which has given me reason to connect what's been said to me with wrongs done to me before either by the person in question or others.

    I appreciate that I might've jumped in on the defensive too hotly, and that you probably only meant well, however. No hard feelings. All's fair in love and Ne
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  2. #52
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Oh ho ho ho substitute, I'm glad you realize that ENFP's do not apologize.

    Especially for things which we have no reason to apologize for.

    So let us leave it at that, I'm right, you're right, (did I mention I'm right?) the world is a beautiful place, and we can let the thread continue with the discussion at hand.

    In more seriousness though, having 2 close ENTP friends who I often get into circular never-ending arguments with (sometimes I don't even understand what we're arguing about), I think sometimes it's best just to say that perception is everything and sometimes even with good or inocuous intentions people just don't see eye to eye.

    (BTW, would it horrify you that I sometimes test as your type? I am actually an ENTP/ENFP cusp and I test as ENTP not ENFP depending on the test. I'm right on that 50/50 mark and have been since adolescence.)

    And now -- on with the thread!

  3. #53
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    And now -- on with the thread!
    Not quite, I just have to say...

    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    (BTW, would it horrify you that I sometimes test as your type? I am actually an ENTP/ENFP cusp and I test as ENTP not ENFP depending on the test. I'm right on that 50/50 mark and have been since adolescence.)
    Not at all, because not only do I do that tactic as well, but my T/F preference is about 65/35.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  4. #54
    Senior Member NewEra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    This is a very long post, but it needs to be to give you the full low-down on the situation here that I want some input on. So bear with me.

    I know two guys called Dave and Adam. I've known them both long enough to be able to type them as ISTJ with total certainty. On top of that, they've taken tests and always come out as ISTJ.

    But neither of them are at all dutiful or hard working. They're both completely workshy, lazy bums. In fact, they almost are bums - they certainly both look like bums, and the state of their apartments beggars belief.

    Dave is about 45 and suffers quite badly from OCD, which has kept him unemployable for about the last 20 years. He lives a very lazy life, wallowing in his own filth at home, sleeping, eating far too much of the same crappy food every day, watching TV, rarely venturing out of his front door unless complelled to by some kind of appointment with his shrink or the promise of free food somewhere, or perhaps a film that he wants to see - he's been an ardent film buff since his childhood and INSISTS on going to the cinema at least four times a month, and prioritises it over his household bills; he always goes to the cinema alone and always sits in the same seat in front of the same screen.

    He won't go on holidays, he procrastinates everything in the universe. He started to be warned by his doctor years ago that he had to control his eating otherwise he'd become diabetic, but he didn't listen - "But I like this food. This is the food I've always had and I'm used to it, I don't want to change my diet" - and even though he's now diagnosed as diabetic, he just cuts out sweet stuff but carries on eating FAR too much of everything else (a large mixing bowl full of cereal for breakfast every day, for example - the same cereal every day for the last 20 years).

    He rarely washes and he hoards things - some good things like books (though he compulsively buys them every time he goes past a second hand book shop, he has to spend about an hour at least in there and comes out with a load of books that he'll never, ever read and that he can't afford) and some bad things like trash (literal trash - "But I don't want to put it out - it's MY trash!"). He only started using deodorant a year ago, and I've only recently, after years of trying, managed to get him to try using a sponge in the shower and actual shower gel. When I've been out with him, people have often taken him for a bum and me for his social worker. He just laughs and thinks it's funny.

    He hasn't a friend in the world apart from me, because nobody else will put up with him, even his own family. He's completely insensitive and very rude, he doesn't give a damn about other people's feelings and he's greedy and very selfish, and constantly critical of everything and everyone - I've never heard him give an unreserved compliment. If he goes out and sees any people, especially if they're not people he knows well, he 'needs' to take a few days of sitting in bed at home to recover from the 'stress' of it.

    Dave has a degree in Electrical and Electronic Engineering; he has a MENSA IQ and he can do The Times cryptic crossword in 9 minutes. He does calculus for fun. But he's absolutely unemployable, and he's wasting away his life. When I've tried to talk to him about this he's said that he believes himself to be a person who is predestined to misery, and that he's frightened of happiness because he doesn't know what to expect, and that he'd rather stay comfortable in his misery because "at least I know where I am".

    Adam is much the same as Dave, except that he doesn't have OCD. I don't know what's wrong with Adam that makes him act the way he does, and I know that it can't all be down to the OCD with Dave.

    Adam is about 35 and has a degree in philosophy from Cambridge, as well as being an incredibly talented musician and artist. He spends most of his time on the X Box, playing the same three games day in, day out. He won't go anywhere that he hasn't already been before unless physically dragged there. He won't DO anything. He lives with my brother Jack (ENFP), who is a driving instructor and has offered to teach him to drive for free, but Adam is yet to motivate himself to apply for his provisional licence. He also insists that they go to the area near where his mother lives (about 200 miles away) for the lessons "because I know the roads there".

    Adam developed a crush on a girl called Judy about 11 years ago and despite never standing a snowflake's chance in hell with her, and despite her now being married with three kids, he still refuses to accept this or move on, and still talks from time to time about how he'll sort himself out once him and Judy get together - he's convinced that her marriage will fail which, even if it did, still wouldn't mean he had a chance with her.

    Adam finds himself to be so unable to face doing any housework (Jack does it ALL, all the time, and before Jack lived with him it just simply didn't get done and the place was disgusting) that when a piece of meat went mouldy in his fridge once, rather than remove it and clean the fridge, he simply left it there until it became so putrid that it made him retch every time he opened the fridge door. At this point, he simply closed the door, taped the fridge door shut and left it there for three years, just accepting that as far as he was concerned, he didn't have a fridge now.

    Now, both these guys are ISTJ - they have all the traits and without a doubt Si and Te are their main functions. Everything they do and say seems to be hallmarked with the letters Si and Te, and yet somehow this hasn't led to any sense of duty or work ethic. They both sneer at people with jobs and careers and at phrases like "sense of honour" or "personal dignity" - they think it's a pile of old crap... though my guess is that it's their very overly critical fathers that they're actually trying to 'defy' by saying those things, I think that a large part of why they live the way they do is because they're still locked in a sort of 'rebellion' against their fathers (though Dave's is dead long ago and Adam's hasn't seen him in years).

    So WTF is up with all this? Anyone else ever known an ISTJ that went wrong? Anyone figure out what it was in their temperament that made them go this way? Both of them used to be bright college students that were always good for a laugh, they used to be fun and loyal friends with promising futures. It hurts their family and friends to see them letting themselves be reduced to living squalid and unhealthy lives in misery but nothing anyone tries seems to get through to them. Advice/thoughts please!

    And thank you, if you made it to the end of this post!

    Wow, that doesn't even sound real. I'm not saying it's not real, I'm just saying it's so crazy that it doesn't sound real. I don't think it's 'When ISTJ goes wrong' so much as 'When laziness goes too far' or in Dave's case, 'When OCD goes wrong'. Also it's a good example of the fact that OCD isn't all about cleanliness. I have no idea how these people got that way, but I can tell you it's probably nothing to do with MBTI... nothing. It's probably more to do with their past environments.

  5. #55
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    yeah I got that, thanks, but since I'm not a shrink and just their friend, the "deeper help" stuff they need is a bit beyond the scope of what I could offer

    anyway, old thread, outdated info, they're both on the mend now. using approaches towards ISTJ's that I learned through this thread and others here, I managed to railroad them both into therapy and they're getting on quite well with it
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  6. #56
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    @substitute
    I know it's been years, 4-6 to be exact. But if you're still here, can you give us updates? I'm very curious to know how these guys are doing. Even though you don't identify yourself with the characteristics of sympathy and the like, I know you are one tolerant guy. What made you stick with Adam and Dave while they were going through this rough patch? I know ExTPs don't have the patience or time to deal with this type of stuff.

    I read the whole thread. I can definitely see myself in their shoes. To be in that position, I must've tried literally everything I could to get out. I must've worked my butt off every day, been stressed and frustrated as hell before going to that state of apathy. And still, I'd push everyone away from me. I wonder how you were able to be with them, under those circumstances. To have a friend accept you at your worst is a treasure.

  7. #57
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    Naomi Quenk says that in midlife if an ISTJ doesn't progress positively toward integrating their extraverted intuition along with their tertiary feeling, they can become a more exaggerated version of themselves.

    "They may develop rigid rules and unvarying routines, insisting that everyone else conform to their way of doing things."

    It's hard to stand by and watch that, isn't it?

    If these ISTJs can develop their inferior and tertiary more, they can become better balanced people who will enjoy their families more and who will be enjoyed more by their family and friends.
    This came to mind but my gut says these people suffer from some sort of mental illness or chemical imbalance and that they need to be in therapy.

    Please provide feedback on my Nohari and Johari Window by clicking here: Nohari/Johari

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  8. #58
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rawr_sheila
    To have a friend accept you at your worst is a treasure.
    That is very true.

    --

    Curiously, I know an ISTJ who is sort of like this, but to a far lesser extent. I agree with highlander that those guys probably both have/have had very serious underlying issues. I'm happy for them if they're getting help.

    The ISTJ I know is very stubborn and fairly lazy, but is enjoyable company and is generally warm-hearted. He's even a bit of a doormat to his family, which is probably part of his problem. He had one marriage that didn't work out and recently remarried, but maybe too fast. I think she's a a bit of a gold digger, unfortunately, and he is very generous to her and her children, even though she's actually fairly well-off, and retains her own private bank account. He holds a lower management position in which he does what is expected of him, and no more. Sometimes a little less, if he can slip out early, and he overdelegates fairly often. He likes being in charge, but he gets irritated when anyone asks him to work more than his set hours or to do unusual tasks.

    I think he could definitely benefit from more Ne and Fi usage and influence, but the stifling, bottom-line-obsessed nature of his particular workplace isn't helping him (or anyone else, for that matter). IMO, he should find a more relaxed job and take his time finding a new wife, but obviously that's no small task.

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