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  1. #21
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Splittet View Post
    I would speculate Si and Fe are the two most confirming functions. That would make either the ESFJ type or ISFJ type most affected by their environment. I simply cannot see a reason why ISTJs would be more affected by their environment than these two types.
    Not 'more', but possibly 'as', due to the Si needing stability and the Te needing 'correctness'. There's a part in a French movie that reminds me a lot of what I think is a side-effect of the Si-Te partnership:

    Père Leon: What's your name?
    Chouchou (a man): Chouchou
    Frère Jean: [giggles and sneers]
    Chouchou: [upset, self-conscious, embarrassed]
    Père Leon: Oh don't mind him, he just needs things to be... arbitrarily correct.

    Doesn't translate quite so well into English, but I hope you see the point. The Frère Jean character is very much ISTJ, and needs things in the environment around him to be stable and 'arbitrarily correct' - that is, correct as he defines the term, according to his prior experience, no matter how limited or dubious.

    And he needs to be seen as Always Being Right. Dave and Adam really can't stand it if they're proven to be wrong about something, or if something they say confidently believing it to be the One Correct Answer, is conclusively shown to be wrong - they both just fall to pieces, totally embarrassed and ashamed and they usually leave the room as soon as face allows it and go beat themselves up in another room. And they're both TERRIBLE losers at things like Scrabble, and absolutely absurdly competitive with them. Like Dave will actually spend ages taking his turn when he's playing against my 8 year old daughter, because he NEEDS not just to beat her but to THRASH her. He can't even 'let her win', even though he can't seriously believe that anyone questions the fact that he's capable of beating her.

    So that's how I think that Si-Te can be just as strongly affected by their environment as Si-Fe.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
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  2. #22
    Wannabe genius Splittet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Not 'more', but possibly 'as', due to the Si needing stability and the Te needing 'correctness'.

    [...]

    So that's how I think that Si-Te can be just as strongly affected by their environment as Si-Fe.
    Can be, sure, but on average, I highly doubt it ... But anyhow this all comes down to definition. What do we think of as being "affected by environment", I guess we might see that a bit differently.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Splittet View Post
    Can be, sure, but on average, I highly doubt it ... But anyhow this all comes down to definition. What do we think of as being "affected by environment", I guess we might see that a bit differently.
    True... I'm thinking of both human and non-human elements. I suppose I'm thinking that the Te pedantry and perfectionism is a sort of Thinking equivalent to the Fe insistence on everyone/thing being happy and cheerful and 'nice'...? Te is just as 'hurt' by people being (or seeing him as) inaccurate/slovenly as the Fe is by people being 'mean' or seeing them as mean.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  4. #24
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Splittet View Post
    Sorry, but the theory is not exactly obvious to me … What are your arguments for it?

    Same goes for:



    Aren’t extroverts on average more affected by the environment than introverts? And what makes ISTJs more affected by environment than ISFJs? As far as secondary functions go, I would argue Fe is far more confirming in nature than Te …
    I do not see you can separate the MBTI of general psychology.

    According to Eysenck the dichotomy of E is impulsion and activity.
    Within the MBTI P and J highly correlate with impulsion and activity, respectively.
    P and J are the opposite poles within the E continuum.

    It would be much too simple and even incorrect to say EP corresponds with impulsion and EJ with activity.

    The poles are not the continuum. E is not J + P but the continuum between J and P.

    What if you are all J but have no adequate P: are you then an extravert? Does activity function without impulsion?

    Extraverts may have one side dominant, but they need both.
    Impulsivity is the prerequisite of activity.

    An extreme ISTJ has no functioning Ne. Therefore he needs discipline. He succeeds in an environment where he is the recipient of direct orders. Then the responsibility is not his.

    The ISFJ on the other hand does not need direct orders. Social pressure is enough. What people may think of her if she does not go to work and clean her room?

    The extraverts or other kind of introverts do not need the will of others. They are endowed with the will or shame = their activity is functioning.

  5. #25
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    I had an ISTJ friend, a school mate.
    He followed me everywhere.

    He was a dedicated young Communist. He saw forward to the day when he could vote.
    To be there for the cause.

    He liked to have a multitude of books hanging about his room. On display.
    He had a wardrobe full of clothes. He liked to show them.
    He could not afford to buy anything.

    One day they got him. A police officer came to his home. He was a decent chap. They did not inform the school.

    After school he went to work in a shop. There he found another friend, a T.P.

    His mother died. He came to see me after the funeral.
    He confessed.
    He said: I know you do not like it, but I wept there by the coffin.. I could not help it.
    His eyes said: Please forgive me.

    He never had a girl friend. I was surprised when one day, years later, he came to see me with a girl in a tow.

    She was a sprightly young thing, an ESFJ.
    A solid member of the Agrarian Party.
    She announced they were going to get married immediately.

    After the wedding I called him.
    He said he voted for the Agrarian Party.
    He said: Do not call me. I call you.
    But he did not call.

    So one day I called him.
    The wife answered the phone. She said: My husband is not coming to the phone.

    I ran into his other friend, T.P.
    He said: I called our friend but the wife said he is not coming to the phone.

    I met the husband in the train. When he saw me, he panicked. He left the compartment and walked to the other end of the train. I think he went to the lavatory to hide, because I could not find him.

    He had found happiness.
    It was quite unnecessary to be shamefaced about it.

  6. #26
    GirlAmerica
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    PTypes - Correspondence of PTypes, Keirsey, Enneagram, Psychiatric, and Astrological Types

    This link is interesting, cooresponding personality types/mental health issues...it has proven helpful in the past.

  7. #27
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    I also know a number of ISTJ men who stay in very bad unhappy marriages.

    One I know sites having children as the reason for staying.

  8. #28
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    I can related to your friends.

    I, myself, as a weak ISTJ, could imagine myself living their lives. It's a very simple, safe, and low-key life.

    ISTJs are only duty-fillers when they see the work as WORTH completing, especially if there is a desirable reward or dire consequence. When they do, they go to no ends to finish it. They need to be properly motivated.

    I am guessing that your friends have not found the -purpose- they are seeking. They are very happy with their safe lives (according to themselves) right now. They don't like changing their lifestyle for the fear of hardship.

    Once they do, expect them to progress at an alarming rate. They need a 'trigger'. Help them.

  9. #29
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helfeather View Post
    I am guessing that your friends have not found the -purpose- they are seeking. They are very happy with their safe lives (according to themselves) right now. They don't like changing their lifestyle for the fear of hardship.

    Once they do, expect them to progress at an alarming rate. They need a 'trigger'. Help them.
    You're right - I agree, but it's just trying to find that trigger. I've been trying everything for over ten years now, everything I can think of (and ENTP's can think of A LOT! lol), but it's like he's this big fat rock, that just sits there, and all my best efforts, all my attempts, the things I do to try and bring him out, to try and motivate him or get a response - it's like I'm standing there throwing custard pies at this great rock, and each one just splats against it and runs down the surface and onto the ground impotently, nothing seems to penetrate, nothing gets through, and he doesn't budge. I'm about at my wits' end as to what on earth it's going to take to get through to him.

    He often said in the past "I want to get better and change, and become a tougher person that can handle life's complications. But I want to get there without all the effort and pain that's involved." And I assumed because of the obvious absurdity of that statement that he was either joking deadpan (he does that a lot), or that he was speaking rhetorically, sorta knowing that it wasn't possible but just saying it like I might say "I want to win the lotto and get a holiday home in the Bahamas". But in the past year it's become clear that he actually means that - and thinks that it's possible, and he refuses to do anything until he finds this 'perfect way', this 'painless way' of getting to a place that we all know can't be reached without pain. And because of course no such way exists, he just never progresses.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  10. #30
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Yeah I have asked them why they do it and they both give the same answer "I'm comfortable the way I am, I'm used to it, I don't want to change".

    When I ask them why they chose to be that way in the first place, before it became 'familiar', Adam says because with his dad not around any more he felt free to let himself go. Dave says something similar - that he reached a point where he was actually sectioned and while he was in the nuthouse he realised he'd wasted his time trying to please his father and that it was an impossible task, that he'd been living with guilt for 'failing' constantly and become obsessed with it. In his words, "So I dumped all the guilt, and it set me free" - free to be a lazy, selfish slob, apparently... He doesn't see that what he thinks is him "being free" is actually gradually killing him and wasting his life - he doesn't see that it's him he's hurting, no matter how much I try to point it out.

    I think both of them have a mental age still of about 18. I mean they still bitch about "Why should I have to tie my hair back and wear a tie at work?" They think they should be allowed to "be individuals" at work and turn up looking like bums.
    You know what, what you're saying right here reminds me of something I read in Naomi L. Quenk's book, Beside Ourselves, the other day. I wasn't reading about ISTJs but the behavior in mid-life, if they fail to mature in a positive direction can take some real negative turns. There might be a key to some understanding in her book. Now I'm curious. I'll have to go look.

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