• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

[SJ] SJ---Breaking Rules

heart

heart on fire
Joined
May 19, 2007
Messages
8,456
So according to what we're told in MBTI type literature, SJ types believe deeply in rules and tradition. But all humans fall into error.

Here's a sensitive question that I would be grateful for an SJ to shed light on. What is the thought process or rationalization process that an SJ would go through when tempted to break the rules. Like say, Adultery as an easy example, but any example will do.
 

Snow Turtle

New member
Joined
May 28, 2007
Messages
1,335
1. What's the benefit?
2. How much negative impact will this have on others?
3. Am I compromising on a major value for myself?

4. For serious issues like adultery if I were to do it. I'd probably be thinking: Do I really care?

Listening to music and the likes would be the most obvious rule breaking thing that I engage in.
 

EJCC

The Devil of TypoC
Joined
Aug 29, 2008
Messages
19,129
MBTI Type
ESTJ
Enneagram
1w9
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
1. Is there a route I could take that WOULDN'T involve breaking the rules?
2. Is the rule unfair?
3. Is it a very serious rule, or a small, less significant one?
4. Would it be hypocritical of me to break this rule?
5. Is it worth it?
 

Habba

New member
Joined
Jul 22, 2008
Messages
988
MBTI Type
ISTJ
Enneagram
1w9
1. Am I breaking the idea behind the rule, or just the rule itself.
2. Is this rule causing loss of efficiency?
3. If the rule should be broken, will the consequences be negative?
4. Am I bound to honor this rule?

Maybe it could something like that.

It wasn't until some time ago I realized one thing about traffic lights. They are there to give priorities to people and vehicles (green light), not telling who must not cross (red). Therefore, I have no problem crossing streets on red, if there's no one else to use their priority (green). So practically I looked behind the rule to understand why it is there, and then applied the rule so that I would only break the rule (you must not cross the street on red), while not breaking the idea behind the rule (The ones with green light are supposed to go first).

Rules and structure feel so natural to SJs that they rather question the absence of rules and order, than question the existing rules. That's why I have to keep telling myself to see beyond the rules, to understand the reason why the rule exists.
 

ajblaise

Minister of Propagandhi
Joined
Aug 3, 2008
Messages
7,914
MBTI Type
INTP
SJs often conform to norms, and the wider societal norms tell them to follow the rules, but sometimes their closer social group sanctions or encourages breaking certain rules.

And because peer pressure is often felt more strongly than societal pressure, they'll sometimes follow the former and break the latter when they conflict.

That's the exception I've seen in SJs, especially with regards to drug use.
 

Snow Turtle

New member
Joined
May 28, 2007
Messages
1,335
1. Am I breaking the idea behind the rule, or just the rule itself.
2. Is this rule causing loss of efficiency?
3. If the rule should be broken, will the consequences be negative?
4. Am I bound to honor this rule?

Maybe it could something like that.

It wasn't until some time ago I realized one thing about traffic lights. They are there to give priorities to people and vehicles (green light), not telling who must not cross (red). Therefore, I have no problem crossing streets on red, if there's no one else to use their priority (green). So practically I looked behind the rule to understand why it is there, and then applied the rule so that I would only break the rule (you must not cross the street on red), while not breaking the idea behind the rule (The ones with green light are supposed to go first).

Rules and structure feel so natural to SJs that they rather question the absence of rules and order, than question the existing rules. That's why I have to keep telling myself to see beyond the rules, to understand the reason why the rule exists.

That's quite cool. It's sort of interesting that many people don't mind jail walking or crossing the roads when the lights are red, but when it comes to driving it's slightly different. Suppose it's a matter of risk assessment and the feeling that it's easier to just wait it out.
 

Habba

New member
Joined
Jul 22, 2008
Messages
988
MBTI Type
ISTJ
Enneagram
1w9
That's quite cool. It's sort of interesting that many people don't mind jail walking or crossing the roads when the lights are red, but when it comes to driving it's slightly different. Suppose it's a matter of risk assessment and the feeling that it's easier to just wait it out.

When I cross the street by foot, I'm the one taking the risk.
When I drive a car on reds, I'm putting that risk on someone else. That's not cool. (plus I don't even have a license. :))
 

Eiddy

Pronounced eye-ee-dee
Joined
Apr 20, 2009
Messages
757
MBTI Type
DEAD
Enneagram
1w2
1. If I break a rule I think about how it will affect me in the long run (my own self-respect).
2. I have noticed it may not be all about morals per se, but the fact that I don't want someone waving it in my face later.
3. If I will break a rule it has to exceed the cares of what other think. If I feel that I am justified.
4. I may break a rule if I feel it is insignificant and I am not profiting off of it anyhow, like file sharing, etc..
 

NewEra

New member
Joined
Dec 21, 2008
Messages
3,104
MBTI Type
I
How will this affect me? What is the benefit? Will the consequences be bad enough to warrant not doing it? Can I do it in some other way without getting caught?
 

Snow Turtle

New member
Joined
May 28, 2007
Messages
1,335
I wonder if there is a significant difference between how temperaments would react to doing something against the law, assuming they never got caught. Just reminds me of an ENTP friend who kept talking about how he'd do stuff as long as he had a button to reverse time. I wasn't so keen on the stuff that would hurt other people.
 

NewEra

New member
Joined
Dec 21, 2008
Messages
3,104
MBTI Type
I
I wonder if there is a significant difference between how temperaments would react to doing something against the law, assuming they never got caught. Just reminds me of an ENTP friend who kept talking about how he'd do stuff as long as he had a button to reverse time. I wasn't so keen on the stuff that would hurt other people.

It depends what kind of crimes they are, if they're petty or more serious offenses. Also it depends on the person's conscience, something I don't think can be measured by MBTI (I could be wrong).
 

Snow Turtle

New member
Joined
May 28, 2007
Messages
1,335
It depends what kind of crimes they are, if they're petty or more serious offenses. Also it depends on the person's conscience, something I don't think can be measured by MBTI (I could be wrong).

Yeah. I figured the whole conscience thing wouldn't be solely defined by type, so I was just wondering if there's even a small correlation at all.
 

ajblaise

Minister of Propagandhi
Joined
Aug 3, 2008
Messages
7,914
MBTI Type
INTP
I wonder if there is a significant difference between how temperaments would react to doing something against the law, assuming they never got caught. Just reminds me of an ENTP friend who kept talking about how he'd do stuff as long as he had a button to reverse time. I wasn't so keen on the stuff that would hurt other people.

Yes, I'd say there is a correlation, with ESTPs being the most likely to break the law. And with ISFJs the most likely to obey the law. But that's just my theory.

I also think there was a site that said INTPs were most likely to get drug and alcohol violations in college. Which was true in my case.
 

wrldisquiethere

New member
Joined
Apr 2, 2009
Messages
233
MBTI Type
xSFJ
Enneagram
2w1
  • What kind of effect will breaking this rule have on other people?
  • What kind of effect will breaking this rule have on me personally, even if no one else ever knows about it?
  • Who set the rule? Is it fair? How important is their authority and respect to me?
  • What are the possible consequences for breaking this rule, no matter how unlikely?
  • Is this something I will regret later and will cause me to lose respect for myself?
  • Will breaking this rule cause me to be insincere and inconsistent in how I appear to live my life (IOW, will this make me a hypocrite)?
  • Is this the only time I will be tempted to break this rule and something I can consider an exception, or will breaking this rule tempt me to get into the habit of breaking it in the future?
  • What is the purpose for this rule? Can I break the rule while not violating the purpose for the rule?
  • Will breaking this rule benefit me in any way?
 

NewEra

New member
Joined
Dec 21, 2008
Messages
3,104
MBTI Type
I
Yes, I'd say there is a correlation, with ESTPs being the most likely to break the law. And with ISFJs the most likely to obey the law. But that's just my theory.

I also think there was a site that said INTPs were most likely to get drug and alcohol violations in college. Which was true in my case.

Here's a good site on the types and 'most often' or 'highest type to' statistics. They're based on actual factual evidence, too: Facts About the 16 Myers-Briggs

Examples:

ISTJ: Overrepresented among men at risk for heart attack - more than 3.5 times the proportion in Myers' high school sample.

ISFJ: One of 4 types in college reporting the lowest level of assertiveness.

ESTP: Among the highest in college retention.

ENTJ: Ranked 1st of all 16 types in using physical coping resources.

INFP: In national sample, with INTPs, most dissatisfied with the work they do, where they work, and future work opportunities, and likely to leave job.

etc.
 

ajblaise

Minister of Propagandhi
Joined
Aug 3, 2008
Messages
7,914
MBTI Type
INTP
ISTJ: Overrepresented among men at risk for heart attack - more than 3.5 times the proportion in Myers' high school sample.

Nice. Proof that you ISTJs worry too much for your own good.
 

heart

heart on fire
Joined
May 19, 2007
Messages
8,456
...Also it depends on the person's conscience, something I don't think can be measured by MBTI (I could be wrong).

Yes, I was asking the question with the idea that all types can and do break rules but I was more wondering what the internal dialogue and justification process would be.
 

Saslou

New member
Joined
Feb 1, 2009
Messages
4,910
MBTI Type
ESFJ
96% of the time, i won't break any rules or laws.

The other 4% though, well, i have to question how bad it goes against my morals and values and if my actions could possibly hurt anyone else.
If i am just doing something silly, like using selotape to strap someone to a chair, thats not hurting anyone. I am aware i am not being sensible.
Same with driving, 37 in a 30 zone, if i am not hurting anyone, then its OK.
I suppose i just rate each experience at the time.

Adultry .. Never.
 

wrldisquiethere

New member
Joined
Apr 2, 2009
Messages
233
MBTI Type
xSFJ
Enneagram
2w1
96% of the time, i won't break any rules or laws.

The other 4% though, well, i have to question how bad it goes against my morals and values and if my actions could possibly hurt anyone else.
If i am just doing something silly, like using selotape to strap someone to a chair, thats not hurting anyone. I am aware i am not being sensible.
Same with driving, 37 in a 30 zone, if i am not hurting anyone, then its OK.
I suppose i just rate each experience at the time.

Adultry .. Never.

Yeah...and I'd say that a lot of the time when I am breaking rules it's when I don't realize that I am.
 
Top