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  1. #21
    Senior Member Clonester's Avatar
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    I've found from personal experience that ESTJ's aren't the biggest rule followers themselves, but they are more than glad to dictate rules to others. Perhaps a bit of an SJ exception?

    Definitely true about peer pressure and SJ's breaking rules to conform to a group. I've found that too. Otherwise they are the keeper of rules, much to my dismay.
    ENFP Male: E-74% N-95% F-58% P-84% 3w2
    "I feel there are two people inside me - me and my intuition. If I go against her, she'll screw me every time, and if I follow her, we get along quite nicely." -Kim Basinger

  2. #22
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    -I will not cheat in competitive scenes, ever.
    -I will not break the rules if doing so would hurt somebody else.
    -I will not break the rules if doing so would damage my reputation, particularly if breaking the rules would reduce how much I can be trusted.
    -If a rule is plainly stupid, I will be tempted to break it just to show how dumb it is. Usually this is not the case, as these rules are often not particularly restrictive.
    -If a rule is plainly in the wrong (by wrong I don't mean morally, more like if the rule was made with bad logic), I will not abide by it.

    Beyond those considerations, breaking or following the rules comes down to a matter of logic.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Nonsensical's Avatar
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    Beat, D@V3, and even raz are the biggest rebels and troublemakers at TypoC.

    One more toe out of line and they'll need leashes!
    Is it that by its indefiniteness it shadows forth the heartless voids and immensities of the universe, and thus stabs us from behind with the thought of annihilation, when beholding the white depths of the milky way?

  4. #24
    Senior Member 2XtremeENFP's Avatar
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    When I cross the street by foot, I'm the one taking the risk.
    When I drive a car on reds, I'm putting that risk on someone else. That's not cool.
    Side note, I was driving with an ISTJ as a passenger in my car. It was late late laaate at night, so the roads were empty as a ghost town. I pulled up to an intersection and the light was red. Seeing as how it was late and ready to go home, I looked both ways (saw no cars were coming) and drove through the red light.

    The ISTJ FREAKED OUT. Saying things like "Traffic laws are created for a reason; why couldn't you just wait?; is risking our lives more important than sitting at a red light for a few extra moments"

    I responded with ideas like: "I looked both ways. No one was coming, and there were no cops. Who cares?"

    ISTJ Response: "..oh! So you can go around murdering people as long as no cops see you commit the crime? Breaking the law is breaking the law, even if people don't see you do it".

    Am I the only one to find this funny? or do you ISTJs agree with their point?

  5. #25
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clonester View Post
    I've found from personal experience that ESTJ's aren't the biggest rule followers themselves, but they are more than glad to dictate rules to others. Perhaps a bit of an SJ exception?
    In my experience (i.e. my experience being an ESTJ), we'll dictate the rules that we follow. The ones we break, we won't force others to follow. I guess we're like ISTJs that way (if ISTJs are like the one mentioned in the above post). Maybe your experience relates to the fact that we're quicker to succumb to peer pressure - that is, if all our friends are doing it, we'll be more likely to do it, too.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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  6. #26
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2XtremeENFP View Post
    The ISTJ FREAKED OUT. Saying things like "Traffic laws are created for a reason; why couldn't you just wait?; is risking our lives more important than sitting at a red light for a few extra moments"
    Yes, I agree with him (sorry ). You are a criminal. Also, patience is both a virtue I like and something I'm improving in myself.

    My friends have done things of a similar scale, and when I know we won't get in trouble for it, I can calm down pretty quickly, sometimes. So I just "shake my head," instead of freaking out. But especially if it were me driving all alone, I would wait at the red light. Of course I see the logic in your position, and it runs through my head as I sit there, in the back of my mind wondering (not really consciously) how laws and traffic lights could be better arranged. But for now, the law is the law, and isn't there just because someone likes to see you suffer .

    But it is also kind of funny. I'm aware of that, and I use it as a source of joke material with my friends.
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    SJs often conform to norms, and the wider societal norms tell them to follow the rules, but sometimes their closer social group sanctions or encourages breaking certain rules.

    And because peer pressure is often felt more strongly than societal pressure, they'll sometimes follow the former and break the latter when they conflict.

    That's the exception I've seen in SJs, especially with regards to drug use.
    I can vouch for this. The social norm is to go around 5-10ish over the speed limit here. I usually go about 5 over because EVERYONE (except those annoyingly slow do-gooders :steam does it.

  8. #28
    it's tea time! Walking Tourist's Avatar
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    I have to say that I agree with the ISTJ.
    You only looked for cars. You weren't looking for bicycles or pedestrians. Obviously, in your situation, no one was hit or injured in any way. But, it's better to sit at the light than to risk the life of a pedestrian that you might not see in the dark.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2XtremeENFP View Post
    Side note, I was driving with an ISTJ as a passenger in my car. It was late late laaate at night, so the roads were empty as a ghost town. I pulled up to an intersection and the light was red. Seeing as how it was late and ready to go home, I looked both ways (saw no cars were coming) and drove through the red light.

    The ISTJ FREAKED OUT. Saying things like "Traffic laws are created for a reason; why couldn't you just wait?; is risking our lives more important than sitting at a red light for a few extra moments"

    I responded with ideas like: "I looked both ways. No one was coming, and there were no cops. Who cares?"

    ISTJ Response: "..oh! So you can go around murdering people as long as no cops see you commit the crime? Breaking the law is breaking the law, even if people don't see you do it".

    Am I the only one to find this funny? or do you ISTJs agree with their point?
    I'm a little teapot, short and stout. Here is my handle and here is my spout. Every time I steam up, I give a shout. Just tip me over and pour me out.

  9. #29
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    So according to what we're told in MBTI type literature, SJ types believe deeply in rules and tradition. But all humans fall into error.

    Here's a sensitive question that I would be grateful for an SJ to shed light on. What is the thought process or rationalization process that an SJ would go through when tempted to break the rules. Like say, Adultery as an easy example, but any example will do.
    Actually this is a mistake; that's only true of older guard SJs.

    Newer breed SJs reveal that Si isn't following tradition just on principle--Te/Fe likes to have rules and a structure, but Si-ers aren't just brainwashed zombies who follow rules just because they should...Si seeks stability and consistency above all.

    Si is just an attitude of playing it safe and sticking with the by the book method because it's established to have definitely worked in the past. It's not that RULES SHOULD ALWAYS BE FOLLOWED GRRRR, just that the consequences of breaking the rules are unpredictable, and that's not very safe, so it's generally to be avoided.

    Now that we have so much more information readily available in the current age, SJs have gotten a lot smarter and caught up with the times. Since the collective body of human knowledge is larger and much more readily available now, SJs can still maintain a safe, measured, cautious approach without having to adhere strictly to "traditional values", and I think that's great. I know one ISTJ girl who thought she was INTJ for a long time because she thinks tradition for its own sake is stupid and had been misled by poor definitions of Si--and I don't blame her. Si is NOT concerned with tradition for its own sake.

    This actually results in a fair number of SJs mistyping themselves because the literature on MBTI paints them as straight-laced penpushers, which is simply not the case anymore.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  10. #30
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Actually this is a mistake; that's only true of older guard SJs.

    Newer breed SJs reveal that Si isn't following tradition just on principle--Te/Fe likes to have rules and a structure, but Si-ers aren't just brainwashed zombies who follow rules just because they should...Si seeks stability and consistency above all.

    Si is just an attitude of playing it safe and sticking with the by the book method because it's established to have definitely worked in the past. It's not that RULES SHOULD ALWAYS BE FOLLOWED GRRRR, just that the consequences of breaking the rules are unpredictable, and that's not very safe, so it's generally to be avoided.

    Now that we have so much more information readily available in the current age, SJs have gotten a lot smarter and caught up with the times. Since the collective body of human knowledge is larger and much more readily available now, SJs can still maintain a safe, measured, cautious approach without having to adhere strictly to "traditional values", and I think that's great. I know one ISTJ girl who thought she was INTJ for a long time because she thinks tradition for its own sake is stupid and had been misled by poor definitions of Si--and I don't blame her. Si is NOT concerned with tradition for its own sake.

    This actually results in a fair number of SJs mistyping themselves because the literature on MBTI paints them as straight-laced penpushers, which is simply not the case anymore.
    Thank you for this post. This is true for me too. That said, I think there are some newer breed SJs who like going with tradition just for the sake of going with tradition because they perceive it to be "safe" but you never know until you talk to them and ask them about it. Also in western culture, there is just as much safety and support in going with views that are unconventional as well, and I don't perceive those who go with unconventional views to be any more well-informed or impressive, because sometimes they do it for no other good reason except to go against the norm, which gets to be predictable and boring in itself to me.

    I'm more impressed with principle, gumption, and sincere passion.

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