• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

[SJ] SJ's .. Are you content with your type?

bornslippy

New member
Joined
Jul 16, 2009
Messages
13
Haha, easy there, Slippy. First off, what I said is that I don't relate to the "SJ" type overall.

Glad you took my snippy comment as intended -- in jest.

The SJ stereotype I'm most familiar with is the black and whiteness, the not reading between the lines (ie. not reading into symbolism, sticking with face-value). SJs seem to live in a world of, and describe life as, visually descriptive ad copy, as prose, versus the NP's world of poetry and possibilities. A log book full of concrete information versus a link list of concepts and potentials. Is this incorrect? Whether E or I, T or F, is this stereotype not "true"?

I propose a test. Read George Meredith's "Lucifer in Starlight." What is Meredith trying to represent metaphorically in this poem?
 

NewEra

New member
Joined
Dec 21, 2008
Messages
3,104
MBTI Type
I
Glad you took my snippy comment as intended -- in jest.

The SJ stereotype I'm most familiar with is the black and whiteness, the not reading between the lines (ie. not reading into symbolism, sticking with face-value). SJs seem to live in a world of, and describe life as, visually descriptive ad copy, as prose, versus the NP's world of poetry and possibilities. A log book full of concrete information versus a link list of concepts and potentials. Is this incorrect? Whether E or I, T or F, is this stereotype not "true"?

I propose a test. Read George Meredith's "Lucifer in Starlight." What is Meredith trying to represent metaphorically in this poem?

I'll admit, I don't understand any of that kind of stuff, but it doesn't mean that all SJs are like that. I will admit that I mostly take things at superficial value too, but once again each SJ type is different.
 

/DG/

silentigata ano (profile)
Joined
Mar 19, 2009
Messages
4,602
Glad you took my snippy comment as intended -- in jest.

The SJ stereotype I'm most familiar with is the black and whiteness, the not reading between the lines (ie. not reading into symbolism, sticking with face-value). SJs seem to live in a world of, and describe life as, visually descriptive ad copy, as prose, versus the NP's world of poetry and possibilities. A log book full of concrete information versus a link list of concepts and potentials. Is this incorrect? Whether E or I, T or F, is this stereotype not "true"?

I propose a test. Read George Meredith's "Lucifer in Starlight." What is Meredith trying to represent metaphorically in this poem?

Excuse me? I don't think he was asking for a challenge of intellect here. There many are stereotypes for every type. Who is speaking of this one stereotype that you are suggesting here? I didn't find any posts in this thread relating to that. This thread is simply about the many stereotypes of SJ's. Some are true and some not, but it depends on the person in question. We are all individuals, not mindless zombie robots programmed to be the same.

Oh and for the record, I read your little poem and I can honestly say that I don't know what the symbolism is in it. But I didn't understand the literal part of the poem either. I'm not intelligent enough to understand the wording. Happy?
 
Last edited:

Snow Turtle

New member
Joined
May 28, 2007
Messages
1,335
I didn't understand it much either but from the title alone Lucifer in Starlight - I originally assumed it would be about the fallen angel, alone in the night being shone upon by something glorious, perhaps the starlight is in reference to the whole king or the baby.

But really it doesn't help that you choose a poem that uses old english. There's alot of difficult words for people that don't study english literature, therefore don't understand the basic meaning of the words. Anyhow I ultimately ended up googling one interpretation and some parts were obvious, others not so much.

On a starred night Prince Lucifer uprose.
Tired of his dark dominion swung the fiend


Above the rolling ball in cloud part screened,
Where sinners hugged their spectre of repose.
Poor prey to his hot fit of pride were those.

And now upon his western wing he leaned,
Now his huge bulk o'er Afric's sands careened,
Now the black planet shadowed Arctic snows.
Soaring through wider zones that pricked his scars


With memory of the old revolt from Awe,
He reached a middle height, and at the stars,
Which are the brain of heaven, he looked, and sank.
Around the ancient track marched, rank on rank,
The army of unalterable law.


The unbolded part was difficult to understand.
 

Eiddy

Pronounced eye-ee-dee
Joined
Apr 20, 2009
Messages
757
MBTI Type
DEAD
Enneagram
1w2
It seems to mean Lucifer was on high standing now he's down on earth looking up where he once stood, with God's unalterable law; opposed to him and the sinners that follow him, due to a hot fit of pride he sunk to a lower kingdom. Starlight opposed to Sunlight, dark vs. light. It's seems to have a very religious connotation to it.
 

Eiddy

Pronounced eye-ee-dee
Joined
Apr 20, 2009
Messages
757
MBTI Type
DEAD
Enneagram
1w2
Looking back on the poem he seemed to have an iambic pentameter of 6 and 6 in the first two lines. However it breaks up after that so there must be more of a meaning behind the rhythm used, but that is just inexperience talking as an SJ. Satisfied!

Also the stanzas increase by one, but never reach six. Is there a reason for this?
 

Saslou

New member
Joined
Feb 1, 2009
Messages
4,910
MBTI Type
ESFJ
Like it or not, J's judge (according to innately installed yes/no good/bad rule structures). Your statement could be re-written as, "I don't like to judge others, but here I go labeling anyhow." Applying the concept of projection, the only reason being pigeon-holed/generalized would bug you so much is because you unconsciously (or consciously) realize that you do it to others all the time. The nature of J is to accept past-experience as correct and evaluate new experience against it, versus P's searching for meaning within individual occurrences.

I'm reminded of an "If I could be Aristotle I would be" comment you made in another thread. My gf has related to me that she always wished she could be a nerd but just isn't capable.

In my experience this is quite the double-edged sword. A realization/assumption such as this (my brain just doesn't work that way; its not me) could be deemed self-knowledge, but realistically is also self-fulfilling prophecy. I've seen how capable a learner she is when she's not busy doubting herself or wondering what other people will think of her, and have pointed out that if she spent as much time reading wiki entries, watching lectures on Google Video and debating random ideas on web forums as I do (versus watching Friends re-runs, working out/running 4-5 times a week, going for coffee with friends, managing a busy shower/party gifting schedule, etc.) her ability to read into the abstract or to contemplate complexity would likely grow. However, this doesn't fit with her internal network of value judgments -- it's something her brother would find easy, but not her.

Book smarts or no, I would suggest you get over society's book definition of "intelligence" and realize you have genius that other types are simply not capable of. Actually, hrm ... maybe I'm confused ... telling an SJ to take on an opposite view than that of prevailing society ...? Tee hee.

"I don't like or relate to generalizations. Except this one which I highly identify with. It's great because there's lots of us so I fit in."

Seems pretty black and white, no?

Thank you for your insight. This is where the contradictions come into play with me. I judge yet dont like judging. I'm a black and white kind of person, yet i am looking for the grey. I am aware instead of saying the word 'assuming' (did this the other day) it would of been best to use 'from my perception' blah, blah, blah..
Your gf would like to be a nerd, although you can sympathise and rationalise where she is coming from, because we think differently, you would never be able to be in her shoes and vice versa so you'll never completely understand. Just like you can explain how you tick, but i'll never truly understand as i am not 'you'. Make sense?
I am always learning .. being a curious individual i want to know about stuff and why it is.
I think at the end of the day its just strengths and weaknesses .. I know i will never be Aristotle, but i can be Sas. :)
Just another quick note - this is a mess, i am unable to articulate myself in such a straightforward manner. Can you see where my head is, its always like this. There is no structure to it.

I propose a test. Read George Meredith's "Lucifer in Starlight." What is Meredith trying to represent metaphorically in this poem?

Oh my gosh. Brain ache. :doh:
You could of just done a general knowledge quiz, i am great at that (as i found out last night playing with the kid on xbox live)

It seems to mean Lucifer was on high standing now he down on earth looking up where he once stood with God's unalterable law. Opposed to him and the sinners that follow him, due to hot fit of pride he sunk to a lower kingdom. Starlight opposed to Sunlight, dark vs. light. It's seems to have a very religious connotation to it.

:huh: .. you're good.
 

Eiddy

Pronounced eye-ee-dee
Joined
Apr 20, 2009
Messages
757
MBTI Type
DEAD
Enneagram
1w2
Thanks Sas, I wasn't sure how it "should" be interpreted, if other POV's are relevant or not. It was just how it seemed to me reading it the first time, without all the technical undercurrents. I don't know if bornslippy was trying to hint at that literally.

Anyhow, thanks Sas. I hope he shows us his insight into this lovely poem. *hint hint*
 

Saslou

New member
Joined
Feb 1, 2009
Messages
4,910
MBTI Type
ESFJ
Lol. Was it a lovely poem, i don't have a clue .. Woooshh, straight over my head. :blush:
 

bornslippy

New member
Joined
Jul 16, 2009
Messages
13
Apologies to Disney and anyone else whom I may have offended/provoked. No trolling intended, but I'm likely guilty of having a direct/confrontational style.

However, what you have just witnessed was an originally unintented mini social experiment. The stereotypical SJ would not look for (i.e. perceive) symbolic meaning, nor did anyone in this test group (eiddy's comment is accurate and aids understanding, but is not "insightful", in that it is still only a reorganization of the words/meaning consciously provided). Of course, that doesn't mean all SJs are incapable of perceiving metaphor, and it certainly doesn't mean that any SJ is incapable of understanding or appreciating metaphor. As Disney very accurately points out, "we are all individuals, not mindless zombie robots programmed to be the same." But, little tests like this might indicate that some stereotypes often emerge from a pinch of truth. Of course this goes both ways -- in my Grade 12 yearbook I was "most likely to: always have a bad haircut." Being NP has it's disadvantages :p

So Lucifer in Starlight ... we're going back 10 years to Grade 11 English here. In groups of 3 we had to select and read a poem to the class, provide history and background on the author, and provide a poetic interpretation. My two SJ teammates, both friends of mine, immediately assign themselves to the concrete roles, leaving me to contemplate verse from the late 1800s (woot?).

I never was and never have been into poetry. Admittedly I spent most of my time interpreting the surface meanings, trying to think my way out of the problem. Wrong answer. I've since learned that both Freud and Jung agree that dreams are to be interpreted symbolically, through associative, picture-based thinking, as opposed to directed language-based thinking. Poetry is no different.

So eventually, minutes before presenting to the class, images started coming to me, and a feverishly began scribbling down my inspiration. Envision Lucifer taking off into the sky. Who or what could Lucifer represent? People. Mankind. We too are fallen. What takes off in a hot fit of pride? Someone's ego? Collective ego? Wait, space shuttles take off in a hot fit too. A rolling ball in cloud part screened sure sounds like a planet. The stars of heaven are the brain of the universe? It could be that man has taken off in search of enlightenment, or space flight, vying to become like God by reaching Heaven, by knowing His mind. Masters of land, sand and snow, and having become prideful with intellectual progress and the rampantly increasing mastery of Earth, man takes to the sky, daring to contest the immutable law of gravity. Man reaches a point, the middle ground, and realizes that it is all in vain: the stars are still out of reach; we can still never know the mind of God or be like him. It could also be a metaphor for growing up and dieing -- we arise in pride as teenagers,conquering the world to a point, only to reach middle age and realize that death is inevitable. Idealism ages into conservatism.

And no, that is not how it "should" be interpreted. I don't know that there is ever a "right" answer to these things (Isn't that what is so attractive about poetry, case studies and theoretical anything? :p). But it would be the atypical SJ that would answer the question in such a way.

Of course, ask me to pack for a month long trip and be prepared for ever eventuality and I'm coming to your house to plead for assistance. Heck, it's hard enough remembering to wash dishes and laundry.

Sorry for hi-jacking your thread btw.
 

Saslou

New member
Joined
Feb 1, 2009
Messages
4,910
MBTI Type
ESFJ
Well thank you for talking the time to explain that.

I suppose because i have no interest really in the subject, after the first few sentences all i heard/saw was blah, blah, blah.

Least i am honest. :devil:
 

Eiddy

Pronounced eye-ee-dee
Joined
Apr 20, 2009
Messages
757
MBTI Type
DEAD
Enneagram
1w2
Wow born slippy that is impressive, way beyond concrete. Very imaginative, indeed. Crap now I know I will never amount to anything beyond an editor or technical writer. :cry: :boohoo:

Well, maybe I can find a beautiful white Calla Lily in a black sleek vase to liven up your front room. :D
 

Snow Turtle

New member
Joined
May 28, 2007
Messages
1,335
Does the truth really exist or is it confirmation bias?
It's definitely apparant of the Ne taking place there and I'd be the first to admit that it's the weakest thing within me, I don't create parallel stories that could equally represent the poem. The only intuitive function that I'm used to is Ni and that's seeking meaning from the poem. Time to crack open Ti and defend the SJs...

I would not interpret Lucifer as people for the sheer fact that while humans are fallen individuals, according to God's grace we can be saved. The end of the poem however seemed to give more indication of eternal resignation and perhaps sadness. When you write things down I can see how different sections can be interpreted differently, but looking at the whole thing in context would render some of these interpretations 'inaccurate'.

Bottom line is: Many SJs here have contested against the stereotype before. The dictotomies aren't one or another, it's a gradual scale and represents a preference rather than ability. Looking at things from a function point of view changes things even more so as an individual can develop intuitive based functions like Ne and Ni. Development of Ti usually ends up leading to moral relativity due to awareness of the lack of absolutes within the world, and Fi usually respects other individuals enough not to ram down black and white thinking.

Consider that functions are the backbone of MBTI. What exactly is it that induces black and white thinking? This idea that there is a easy split between abstract and concrete strikes me as odd as all thought itself is abstract.
 

/DG/

silentigata ano (profile)
Joined
Mar 19, 2009
Messages
4,602
Thanks for clarifying, slippy. Sorry about that, I guess I took your post the wrong way. :p Yeah, it's probably true that most SJ's aren't great with symbolism and metaphors. That's just one of the things I'm a tad jealous of N's. It looks like those sort of things just come naturally. :tongue:
 

bornslippy

New member
Joined
Jul 16, 2009
Messages
13
Thanks for clarifying, slippy. Sorry about that, I guess I took your post the wrong way. :p Yeah, it's probably true that most SJ's aren't great with symbolism and metaphors. That's just one of the things I'm a tad jealous of N's. It looks like those sort of things just come naturally. :tongue:

They do come naturally to an extent. I just had a conversation over beer with a couple NTs from work and we spontaneously discussed Rock, Paper, Scissors, and whether or not there was a sociological/psychological means to predict selection.

If you spent your time since grade school talking about shit like that it would surely come more naturally to you too.

Diversity is beautiful.
 

poppy

triple nerd score
Joined
May 30, 2009
Messages
2,215
MBTI Type
intj
Enneagram
5
It's interesting to me, Saslou and Eiddy, that you both pointed out that on this forum you're more of a rarity (Ah, other people might have mentioned this too but I'm too lazy to read every post:blush:). I hadn't put a lot of thought into it, as I always think of SJs as representing such a large amount of society, but in this particular area of interest they are not well represented in number, and there is a bias towards N here. It actually kind of bums me out that there aren't more SJ types here, because the N can get a little wild and sometimes I like to hear from more down to earth types. And my collection of data is incomplete. *sad INTJ face*

(Also, I have Ni and still can't understand poetry. I feel cheated!)
 

Ozz

New member
Joined
Mar 4, 2009
Messages
197
MBTI Type
ISTJ
Do you ever have moments where you just wish you could be any other type?

Sometimes, I think I could use a lot more ability to come up with new idea. I wish I have a N I could call out when needed. Essentially, when I face a situation where my weakness is showing, I want to be another type.

How do you deal with your weaknesses?

I hadn't figured this part out yet. I do recognize that I need to deal with them slowly one by one and I should expect incremental improvements.

Is it easy for you to accept what/who you are?

I think the test gave me a understanding of myself in a way that wasn't there before. It allowed me to accept more of my own strengths (and weaknesses). I used to think there is something wrong with me because almost people around me were not acting in the same way.

Do you ever have moments where you wish you never took the test?

The only time I regret it is when I was trying to take another personality test and I kept thinking if i am filling them in honestly.:doh:

How do you feel about yourself compared to the other types?

It's hard to say because it seems to me that every types in the MBTI test would thrive in different type of environments. So depending on the environment that I am in, ISTJ's rank would be different.
 

Saslou

New member
Joined
Feb 1, 2009
Messages
4,910
MBTI Type
ESFJ
It's interesting to me, Saslou and Eiddy, that you both pointed out that on this forum you're more of a rarity (Ah, other people might have mentioned this too but I'm too lazy to read every post:blush:). I hadn't put a lot of thought into it, as I always think of SJs as representing such a large amount of society, but in this particular area of interest they are not well represented in number, and there is a bias towards N here. It actually kind of bums me out that there aren't more SJ types here, because the N can get a little wild and sometimes I like to hear from more down to earth types. And my collection of data is incomplete. *sad INTJ face*

(Also, I have Ni and still can't understand poetry. I feel cheated!)

Thank you Poppy for your input. I had a jaw drop moment there because never in my wildiest days would i ever of though an INTJ (yeah, some major stereotyping going on) would come out with a comment like that.
I have an absolute new found respect for you now.
You rock. (No sad faces please)

:rock:
 

poppy

triple nerd score
Joined
May 30, 2009
Messages
2,215
MBTI Type
intj
Enneagram
5
Thank you Poppy for your input. I had a jaw drop moment there because never in my wildiest days would i ever of though an INTJ (yeah, some major stereotyping going on) would come out with a comment like that.
I have an absolute new found respect for you now.
You rock. (No sad faces please)

:rock:

Hee hee :blush: Oh sorry my Fi is dripping everywhere. Better mop that up.
 

NewEra

New member
Joined
Dec 21, 2008
Messages
3,104
MBTI Type
I
It's interesting to me, Saslou and Eiddy, that you both pointed out that on this forum you're more of a rarity (Ah, other people might have mentioned this too but I'm too lazy to read every post:blush:). I hadn't put a lot of thought into it, as I always think of SJs as representing such a large amount of society, but in this particular area of interest they are not well represented in number, and there is a bias towards N here. It actually kind of bums me out that there aren't more SJ types here, because the N can get a little wild and sometimes I like to hear from more down to earth types. And my collection of data is incomplete. *sad INTJ face*

I wish there were more of us in this forum too.
 
Top