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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheChosenOne View Post
    Haha, easy there, Slippy. First off, what I said is that I don't relate to the "SJ" type overall.
    Glad you took my snippy comment as intended -- in jest.

    The SJ stereotype I'm most familiar with is the black and whiteness, the not reading between the lines (ie. not reading into symbolism, sticking with face-value). SJs seem to live in a world of, and describe life as, visually descriptive ad copy, as prose, versus the NP's world of poetry and possibilities. A log book full of concrete information versus a link list of concepts and potentials. Is this incorrect? Whether E or I, T or F, is this stereotype not "true"?

    I propose a test. Read George Meredith's "Lucifer in Starlight." What is Meredith trying to represent metaphorically in this poem?

  2. #42
    Senior Member NewEra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bornslippy View Post
    Glad you took my snippy comment as intended -- in jest.

    The SJ stereotype I'm most familiar with is the black and whiteness, the not reading between the lines (ie. not reading into symbolism, sticking with face-value). SJs seem to live in a world of, and describe life as, visually descriptive ad copy, as prose, versus the NP's world of poetry and possibilities. A log book full of concrete information versus a link list of concepts and potentials. Is this incorrect? Whether E or I, T or F, is this stereotype not "true"?

    I propose a test. Read George Meredith's "Lucifer in Starlight." What is Meredith trying to represent metaphorically in this poem?
    I'll admit, I don't understand any of that kind of stuff, but it doesn't mean that all SJs are like that. I will admit that I mostly take things at superficial value too, but once again each SJ type is different.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by bornslippy View Post
    Glad you took my snippy comment as intended -- in jest.

    The SJ stereotype I'm most familiar with is the black and whiteness, the not reading between the lines (ie. not reading into symbolism, sticking with face-value). SJs seem to live in a world of, and describe life as, visually descriptive ad copy, as prose, versus the NP's world of poetry and possibilities. A log book full of concrete information versus a link list of concepts and potentials. Is this incorrect? Whether E or I, T or F, is this stereotype not "true"?

    I propose a test. Read George Meredith's "Lucifer in Starlight." What is Meredith trying to represent metaphorically in this poem?
    Excuse me? I don't think he was asking for a challenge of intellect here. There many are stereotypes for every type. Who is speaking of this one stereotype that you are suggesting here? I didn't find any posts in this thread relating to that. This thread is simply about the many stereotypes of SJ's. Some are true and some not, but it depends on the person in question. We are all individuals, not mindless zombie robots programmed to be the same.

    Oh and for the record, I read your little poem and I can honestly say that I don't know what the symbolism is in it. But I didn't understand the literal part of the poem either. I'm not intelligent enough to understand the wording. Happy?
    Last edited by /DG/; 07-23-2009 at 11:01 PM. Reason: typo >.<

  4. #44
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    I didn't understand it much either but from the title alone Lucifer in Starlight - I originally assumed it would be about the fallen angel, alone in the night being shone upon by something glorious, perhaps the starlight is in reference to the whole king or the baby.

    But really it doesn't help that you choose a poem that uses old english. There's alot of difficult words for people that don't study english literature, therefore don't understand the basic meaning of the words. Anyhow I ultimately ended up googling one interpretation and some parts were obvious, others not so much.

    On a starred night Prince Lucifer uprose.
    Tired of his dark dominion swung the fiend


    Above the rolling ball in cloud part screened,
    Where sinners hugged their spectre of repose.
    Poor prey to his hot fit of pride were those.

    And now upon his western wing he leaned,
    Now his huge bulk o'er Afric's sands careened,
    Now the black planet shadowed Arctic snows.
    Soaring through wider zones that pricked his scars


    With memory of the old revolt from Awe,
    He reached a middle height, and at the stars,
    Which are the brain of heaven, he looked, and sank.
    Around the ancient track marched, rank on rank,
    The army of unalterable law.


    The unbolded part was difficult to understand.

  5. #45
    Pronounced eye-ee-dee Eiddy's Avatar
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    It seems to mean Lucifer was on high standing now he's down on earth looking up where he once stood, with God's unalterable law; opposed to him and the sinners that follow him, due to a hot fit of pride he sunk to a lower kingdom. Starlight opposed to Sunlight, dark vs. light. It's seems to have a very religious connotation to it.
    Johari / Nohari

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  6. #46
    Pronounced eye-ee-dee Eiddy's Avatar
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    Looking back on the poem he seemed to have an iambic pentameter of 6 and 6 in the first two lines. However it breaks up after that so there must be more of a meaning behind the rhythm used, but that is just inexperience talking as an SJ. Satisfied!

    Also the stanzas increase by one, but never reach six. Is there a reason for this?
    Johari / Nohari

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  7. #47
    Senior Member Saslou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bornslippy View Post

    Like it or not, J's judge (according to innately installed yes/no good/bad rule structures). Your statement could be re-written as, "I don't like to judge others, but here I go labeling anyhow." Applying the concept of projection, the only reason being pigeon-holed/generalized would bug you so much is because you unconsciously (or consciously) realize that you do it to others all the time. The nature of J is to accept past-experience as correct and evaluate new experience against it, versus P's searching for meaning within individual occurrences.

    I'm reminded of an "If I could be Aristotle I would be" comment you made in another thread. My gf has related to me that she always wished she could be a nerd but just isn't capable.

    In my experience this is quite the double-edged sword. A realization/assumption such as this (my brain just doesn't work that way; its not me) could be deemed self-knowledge, but realistically is also self-fulfilling prophecy. I've seen how capable a learner she is when she's not busy doubting herself or wondering what other people will think of her, and have pointed out that if she spent as much time reading wiki entries, watching lectures on Google Video and debating random ideas on web forums as I do (versus watching Friends re-runs, working out/running 4-5 times a week, going for coffee with friends, managing a busy shower/party gifting schedule, etc.) her ability to read into the abstract or to contemplate complexity would likely grow. However, this doesn't fit with her internal network of value judgments -- it's something her brother would find easy, but not her.

    Book smarts or no, I would suggest you get over society's book definition of "intelligence" and realize you have genius that other types are simply not capable of. Actually, hrm ... maybe I'm confused ... telling an SJ to take on an opposite view than that of prevailing society ...? Tee hee.

    "I don't like or relate to generalizations. Except this one which I highly identify with. It's great because there's lots of us so I fit in."

    Seems pretty black and white, no?
    Thank you for your insight. This is where the contradictions come into play with me. I judge yet dont like judging. I'm a black and white kind of person, yet i am looking for the grey. I am aware instead of saying the word 'assuming' (did this the other day) it would of been best to use 'from my perception' blah, blah, blah..
    Your gf would like to be a nerd, although you can sympathise and rationalise where she is coming from, because we think differently, you would never be able to be in her shoes and vice versa so you'll never completely understand. Just like you can explain how you tick, but i'll never truly understand as i am not 'you'. Make sense?
    I am always learning .. being a curious individual i want to know about stuff and why it is.
    I think at the end of the day its just strengths and weaknesses .. I know i will never be Aristotle, but i can be Sas.
    Just another quick note - this is a mess, i am unable to articulate myself in such a straightforward manner. Can you see where my head is, its always like this. There is no structure to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by bornslippy View Post
    I propose a test. Read George Meredith's "Lucifer in Starlight." What is Meredith trying to represent metaphorically in this poem?
    Oh my gosh. Brain ache.
    You could of just done a general knowledge quiz, i am great at that (as i found out last night playing with the kid on xbox live)

    Quote Originally Posted by Eiddy View Post
    It seems to mean Lucifer was on high standing now he down on earth looking up where he once stood with God's unalterable law. Opposed to him and the sinners that follow him, due to hot fit of pride he sunk to a lower kingdom. Starlight opposed to Sunlight, dark vs. light. It's seems to have a very religious connotation to it.
    .. you're good.
    “I made you take time to look at what I saw and when you took time to really notice my flower, you hung all your associations with flowers on my flower and you write about my flower as if I think and see what you think and see—and I don't.”
    ― Georgia O'Keeffe

  8. #48
    Pronounced eye-ee-dee Eiddy's Avatar
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    Thanks Sas, I wasn't sure how it "should" be interpreted, if other POV's are relevant or not. It was just how it seemed to me reading it the first time, without all the technical undercurrents. I don't know if bornslippy was trying to hint at that literally.

    Anyhow, thanks Sas. I hope he shows us his insight into this lovely poem. *hint hint*
    Johari / Nohari

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  9. #49
    Senior Member Saslou's Avatar
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    Lol. Was it a lovely poem, i don't have a clue .. Woooshh, straight over my head.
    “I made you take time to look at what I saw and when you took time to really notice my flower, you hung all your associations with flowers on my flower and you write about my flower as if I think and see what you think and see—and I don't.”
    ― Georgia O'Keeffe

  10. #50
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    Apologies to Disney and anyone else whom I may have offended/provoked. No trolling intended, but I'm likely guilty of having a direct/confrontational style.

    However, what you have just witnessed was an originally unintented mini social experiment. The stereotypical SJ would not look for (i.e. perceive) symbolic meaning, nor did anyone in this test group (eiddy's comment is accurate and aids understanding, but is not "insightful", in that it is still only a reorganization of the words/meaning consciously provided). Of course, that doesn't mean all SJs are incapable of perceiving metaphor, and it certainly doesn't mean that any SJ is incapable of understanding or appreciating metaphor. As Disney very accurately points out, "we are all individuals, not mindless zombie robots programmed to be the same." But, little tests like this might indicate that some stereotypes often emerge from a pinch of truth. Of course this goes both ways -- in my Grade 12 yearbook I was "most likely to: always have a bad haircut." Being NP has it's disadvantages :P

    So Lucifer in Starlight ... we're going back 10 years to Grade 11 English here. In groups of 3 we had to select and read a poem to the class, provide history and background on the author, and provide a poetic interpretation. My two SJ teammates, both friends of mine, immediately assign themselves to the concrete roles, leaving me to contemplate verse from the late 1800s (woot?).

    I never was and never have been into poetry. Admittedly I spent most of my time interpreting the surface meanings, trying to think my way out of the problem. Wrong answer. I've since learned that both Freud and Jung agree that dreams are to be interpreted symbolically, through associative, picture-based thinking, as opposed to directed language-based thinking. Poetry is no different.

    So eventually, minutes before presenting to the class, images started coming to me, and a feverishly began scribbling down my inspiration. Envision Lucifer taking off into the sky. Who or what could Lucifer represent? People. Mankind. We too are fallen. What takes off in a hot fit of pride? Someone's ego? Collective ego? Wait, space shuttles take off in a hot fit too. A rolling ball in cloud part screened sure sounds like a planet. The stars of heaven are the brain of the universe? It could be that man has taken off in search of enlightenment, or space flight, vying to become like God by reaching Heaven, by knowing His mind. Masters of land, sand and snow, and having become prideful with intellectual progress and the rampantly increasing mastery of Earth, man takes to the sky, daring to contest the immutable law of gravity. Man reaches a point, the middle ground, and realizes that it is all in vain: the stars are still out of reach; we can still never know the mind of God or be like him. It could also be a metaphor for growing up and dieing -- we arise in pride as teenagers,conquering the world to a point, only to reach middle age and realize that death is inevitable. Idealism ages into conservatism.

    And no, that is not how it "should" be interpreted. I don't know that there is ever a "right" answer to these things (Isn't that what is so attractive about poetry, case studies and theoretical anything? :P). But it would be the atypical SJ that would answer the question in such a way.

    Of course, ask me to pack for a month long trip and be prepared for ever eventuality and I'm coming to your house to plead for assistance. Heck, it's hard enough remembering to wash dishes and laundry.

    Sorry for hi-jacking your thread btw.

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