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  1. #21
    Senior Member BallentineChen's Avatar
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    You guys are murdering the Lincoln I know.

    He was ahead of his time. When the country was happy to settle with the Missouri Compromise he knew the issue of slavery would have to be resolved once and for all for the preservation of America. That's foresight.

    "Both read the same Bible, and pray to the same God; and each invokes his aid against the other. It may seem strange that any men should dare to ask a just God's assistance in wringing their bread from the sweat of other men's faces; but let us judge not, that we be not judged. The prayers of both could not be answered--that of neither has been answered fully."

    This is someone who understood the complexity of man and was very aware of the limits of his own knowledge.
    "For a man who wants to make a profession of good in all regards must come to ruin among so many who are not good. Hence it is necessary to a prince, if he wants to maintain himself, to learn to be able not to be good, and to use this and not use it according to necessity."
    Niccolo Machiavelli

  2. #22
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BallentineChen View Post
    You guys are murdering the Lincoln I know.

    He was ahead of his time. When the country was happy to settle with the Missouri Compromise he knew the issue of slavery would have to be resolved once and for all for the preservation of America. That's foresight.

    "Both read the same Bible, and pray to the same God; and each invokes his aid against the other. It may seem strange that any men should dare to ask a just God's assistance in wringing their bread from the sweat of other men's faces; but let us judge not, that we be not judged. The prayers of both could not be answered--that of neither has been answered fully."

    This is someone who understood the complexity of man and was very aware of the limits of his own knowledge.
    IMHO, Lincoln was one of the most overrated presidents in history. And he did not have a very high opinion of blacks (up to and including endorsing a plan to send those willing to go back to Africa). He was a fairly canny politician, though, and he was very much committed to maintaining the Union (although this may not have been the correct position, especially constitutionally).
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  3. #23
    Senior Member BallentineChen's Avatar
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    I'll take it you don't mean he is overrated because he didn't have a high opinion of black people. How is he overrated?
    "For a man who wants to make a profession of good in all regards must come to ruin among so many who are not good. Hence it is necessary to a prince, if he wants to maintain himself, to learn to be able not to be good, and to use this and not use it according to necessity."
    Niccolo Machiavelli

  4. #24
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BallentineChen View Post
    I'll take it you don't mean he is overrated because he didn't have a high opinion of black people. How is he overrated?
    Well, that is part of it. He was certainly not The Great Emancipator (and the Emancipation Proclamation only pertained to rebel states, and didn't really have any legal standing). He is, to this day, seen as way ahead of his time regarding slavery race by many Americans, and that is inaccurate. He also did a lot of things I disagree with. Instituting the first national income tax, suspending the writ of habeas corpus, jailing dissident newspaper writers, encouraging war policy that was pretty brutal and vindictive to the Confederacy. It's a pattern setting himself up as a super-powerful executive who didn't answer to the Constitution or the checks and balances of the other branches of government. He was a very flawed leader.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  5. #25
    Senior Member BallentineChen's Avatar
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    I still think he had many merits that would disqualify him from merely being a very flawed leader. As you pointed out, many people believe that he was ahead of his time regarding race, which I also disagree with. The issue was the preservation of the Union, the circumstance happened to be slavery.

    However, I think credit is due on where he stood on that debate and the sheer magnitude of the undertaking. Although I don't agree with the suspension Habeus Corpus and the other acts you listed, I don't believe that power was an endeavor in itself for him. Anecdotes from people surrounding him during that time mention the personal toll the war took on him, I believe he went to war because he believed it was the only option - whether he was right or wrong. The South also suspended Habeas Corpus. Taken in the context of the atmosphere during that period, it would be hard to make an argument that his measures were completely unwarranted.

    Being reticent of the rhetoric that Bush has subjected us to, I don't believe that freedoms must be the first to go in times of conflict. But it's a tough line to walk between idealism and pragmatism. The best outcome would have been if there was no war at all.

    Your post did make me reevaluate my impression of Lincoln.
    "For a man who wants to make a profession of good in all regards must come to ruin among so many who are not good. Hence it is necessary to a prince, if he wants to maintain himself, to learn to be able not to be good, and to use this and not use it according to necessity."
    Niccolo Machiavelli

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by BallentineChen View Post
    I still think he had many merits that would disqualify him from merely being a very flawed leader. As you pointed out, many people believe that he was ahead of his time regarding race, which I also disagree with. The issue was the preservation of the Union, the circumstance happened to be slavery.

    However, I think credit is due on where he stood on that debate and the sheer magnitude of the undertaking. Although I don't agree with the suspension Habeus Corpus and the other acts you listed, I don't believe that power was an endeavor in itself for him. Anecdotes from people surrounding him during that time mention the personal toll the war took on him, I believe he went to war because he believed it was the only option - whether he was right or wrong. The South also suspended Habeas Corpus. Taken in the context of the atmosphere during that period, it would be hard to make an argument that his measures were completely unwarranted.

    Being reticent of the rhetoric that Bush has subjected us to, I don't believe that freedoms must be the first to go in times of conflict. But it's a tough line to walk between idealism and pragmatism. The best outcome would have been if there was no war at all.

    Your post did make me reevaluate my impression of Lincoln.

    I would go so far as to say that preservation of the Union may not have been the proper constitutional choice, if you look at it from the point of view of states having chosen to enter it. It follows logically that a state would be able to dissolve their relationship with the Union, as well. I disagree with the actions and the sentiments of the Confederacy, but that was a legitimate consitutional crisis, not a simple insurrection by a group of rebel terrorists.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

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