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  1. #81
    Senior Member NewEra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Yeah. Do you ever get people trying to guilt trip you by saying you don't care about them because you don't spend all your time wallowing in how much you miss them, and just move forward?
    Can't say I have actually, lol. But I'm glad I haven't.

  2. #82
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post

    That's interesting - So conversely, do you feel that when people express those feelings to you they are trying to manipulate you?
    Well, I could couch it and disclaim it, but I'm afraid the simple and honest anwser is 'yes', because frankly, you are! You might not be doing it with malicious intent or anything, but the point is, you're not happy with a situation because it makes you FEEL bad, there might be no logic, no reason or objective rationale to support your desire for it to change, but you want it to change all the same, so that YOU can be happy. That is subjective, and to my way of thinking, it would seem selfish and self-indulgent.

    I see it as my problem if I feel bad about something, unless there's significant evidence to prove that it's not "just me", that it's not just because of subjective reasons that I don't like it, but because it's illogical, inefficient or otherwise in need of change for objective reasons that are applicable to the majority. Get over it? Yeah, I guess... find a way to see it differently so that I can be okay with it, or just... suck it up! LOL
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  3. #83
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Thank you for not couching or disclaiming. It's actually quite helpful to see how things are perceived from the other side. I need to ruminate a little more, but would like to discuss that further.

  4. #84
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    EJCC - Do all the things you have avoided in your mind just disappear completely, or are they there waiting for you if you opened the door to that room?
    Depends on the situation. And it depends on how long ago it was. I often find that the goodbye isn't nearly as significant in my mind as the time that the person was there, so I remember THOSE times, but not the goodbye. I'm not sure why that is...

    With the goodbye thing - would putting your words in writing seem even extra emotional, or would it help distance the awkwardness/embarrassment of those feelings for you?
    It would help immensely!! Remember the thing I said (on this thread or some other one) about writing apology letters? Same thing. It helps to not see their reaction to it. Plus, I'm so very much more eloquent on paper.

    With discomfort discussing conflict, or people showing emotion in front of you, being reluctant to show emotion in front of them, and avoidance of good-byes, how do you then let people know that they really matter to you?
    Well, I DO open up, occasionally. I don't enjoy it, but I do it, and only around people I trust. So I guess you could say... you know that an ESTJ trusts you emotionally (and that you are, officially, a friend) when they open up to you. (Also, when they recognize your strengths by letting you have some of the control in the relationship, but that's off topic.)

    They also then interpret making a nice meal or something like that as taking the easy way out instead of giving what is really needed.
    Aww... that's really sad. See, that's a really big thing for us. Doing stuff for people like that is a way of showing that we care, without it getting too emotional. (The bigger the gift, the more awkwardly emotional the reaction.) So it's sad that people could interpret that as insignificant, because it's such a big step for us that it FEELS significant. (VERY significant.) But of course, I'm sure that I'm preaching to the choir here

    Is this just an impossibility for the STJ, or is it something that over time they could meet in the middle with the other person over? It certainly isn't fair to ask someone to remake who they are, but from what I can tell, these issues seem to also impact the STJ negatively and distance them from the support and love of those who would like to get close to them.
    Oh, it's definitely something that they can work on. I've worked on it over time, and it's helped a little. It's just that we/they need the motivation and the practice.
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  5. #85
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Well, I could couch it and disclaim it, but I'm afraid the simple and honest anwser is 'yes', because frankly, you are! You might not be doing it with malicious intent or anything, but the point is, you're not happy with a situation because it makes you FEEL bad, there might be no logic, no reason or objective rationale to support your desire for it to change, but you want it to change all the same, so that YOU can be happy. That is subjective, and to my way of thinking, it would seem selfish and self-indulgent.

    I see it as my problem if I feel bad about something, unless there's significant evidence to prove that it's not "just me", that it's not just because of subjective reasons that I don't like it, but because it's illogical, inefficient or otherwise in need of change for objective reasons that are applicable to the majority. Get over it? Yeah, I guess... find a way to see it differently so that I can be okay with it, or just... suck it up! LOL
    Would you STJs say you would feel the same way as Substitute on this?

    If so, is your solution just dealing with things that bug you by yourself or if it is getting too troublesome to sever the relationship/friendship?

    What if the other person is willing to flex to not do things that bother you, but they don't know what it is that they are doing? What if they are using up all of your patience on easily changed things that they don't know they have even done to bother you?

    In a relationship, is it important to you to find another T thinker who will look at dealing with things the same way? If not, how do you handle the other person constantly wanting you to help them "fix" things that are bothering them or telling you that you have hurt their feelings? Obviously in a marriage or a family relationship this is a point of friction. Do you feel, "This is me - take it or leave it" because I'm not trying to change you and you shouldn't be trying to change me?

  6. #86
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    EJCC - Thanks for your answers! I agree that it is too bad that people don't see the nice things you guys do sometimes because it is offered in a different currency. I have come to realize that my dad's way of being close to me is to do things like filling up my car with gas before I leave on a trip, or carrying boxes in or something like that when I come home for the summer or on holidays.

    I was looking for the part of one of those threads where we were talking about writing things vs saying them and I couldn't find it when I was writing. I remembered though that you had also said that receiving a compliment in writing would make it seem contrived and like TOO big of a deal, so I wasn't sure which category good-bye would fall into.

  7. #87
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    I'm going to cry all over this thread. Right. Now.

  8. #88
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Would you STJs say you would feel the same way as Substitute on this?
    No. You can't ALWAYS ignore your feelings. They're there for a reason.

    I was looking for the part of one of those threads where we were talking about writing things vs saying them and I couldn't find it when I was writing. I remembered though that you had also said that receiving a compliment in writing would make it seem contrived and like TOO big of a deal, so I wasn't sure which category good-bye would fall into.
    Hm. Interesting. I'm not sure what makes those two situations different... maybe it's that compliments don't seem like as big a deal as apologies do. Compliments don't make me feel vulnerable, because they're positive.

    A relevant note: recently, I got kind of emotional in a crisis situation, because I was so angry at the people who caused the crisis, who had caused it either because
    1. they were inept at simple, SIMPLE tasks, or
    2. they intentionally broke a crucial rule.
    I don't handle people who do either of those things very well (I've been told that I "don't suffer fools gladly"), and I was tired, so I acted kind of angry and there was a slight sob in my voice. The woman I was working with (an ESFJ) got upset with me because my emotions were "not helpful". My response: "It's not like I can control this!!!" She told me later that when bad things happen with her, she decides that she will "get emotional later", and holds it all in until a better moment. (Her example was waiting until the next morning, when she would cry in the shower.)

    Can any STJs do that, i.e. holding in an emotional reaction because it "isn't helpful"? I can't even imagine being able to do that. Emotions just sneak up on me, and trying to control them feels like trying to tame a wild beast.
    Last edited by EJCC; 07-14-2009 at 05:26 PM.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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  9. #89
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I wonder what type that lady was! In a case like that, I think most people would be hard pressed to control emotion entirely!

  10. #90
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    She's an ESFJ. I have no idea how she does it. It seemed like something that people would expect an STJ to do; shoving your emotions away so you can deal with things better. And usually, that's what I do. But sometimes you just can't emotionally distance yourself from a situation. (Plus, when I get emotional, I need to be alone, and at that particular moment it was impossible for me to go somewhere private to calm down.)

    That's one thing I've noticed with F/T interactions; when one is emotional, the other is calm. I know of many F/F interactions when the two people (almost always women) are essentially crying on each other's shoulders, but I've never had that happen to me. I wonder if there's a psychological reason behind that. It certainly helps in making things more efficient. Maybe it helps with other things too? Hm.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
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    want to ask me something? go for it!

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