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  1. #11
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I've noticed several STJs refer to having no sympathy for people who cry to get attention. Is this really common in your experience? I don't think I could even fill up one hand with people I have known who do that. Is there some kind of inherent suspicion about cry-ers trying to manipulate you? (I tried spelling it the other way, but that looked like town criers.) Perhaps there is a general misunderstanding of the real reason the person is crying.

    What kind of emotional responses do you feel that you may instigate by using more direct actions? In my parents' case, my dad will just empty the garbage way more and do the dishes when they've had a misunderstanding. This feels like trying to pay for something at the gas station with a side of beef. Beef is great, it's worth money, it's certainly better than driving away without paying anything, and there's nothing like a good roast, but they don't take that currency there. Some people will be willing to accept that you tried to make them feel better, but in some cases, something more direct is needed and you may instigate more emotional responses using the indirect manner.

    I'm not saying that indirect actions are not appreciated and noted. I just wonder if sometimes something more needs to happen.
    Last edited by fidelia; 06-24-2009 at 03:14 PM.

  2. #12
    Perfect Gentleman! =D d@v3's Avatar
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    Your certainly right in that, I have definitley had my indirect actions backfire on me! It sucks. But after it happens, I am forced to use the direct actions approach and doll out a bear hug (usually against my will) with a smile on my face.

    Have you really not met someone who cried to get attention? When you say "cry" I mean "whine,cry,gripe,complain" and all of the above. There is definitely a significant different between crying out of sadness and crying out of self-pity and attention.

    I'm not saying you shouldn't have compassion, because you should. But if you are too compassionate, people WILL take advantage of you. I have seen it too many times as my family is full of NF's and I catch an awful lot of people who try to take advantage of how "nice" they are. And the NF's don't even realize what's happening until it's too late!

    It's not really about paying for something, it's about doing what's right vs. what's wrong, being selfless rather than selfish. And xSTJ's have an inate tendency to be keen on right and wrong.
    Freedom Isn't Free. [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  3. #13
    Senior Member Amira's Avatar
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    Interesting. Thanks for your responses. Amira, it was interesting that at the beginning of your explanation you mentioned that people might be trying to manipulate. I could be wrong, but I think that's possibly where some STJ's go wrong. I know that some people do use crying to get their way, but it seems that STJ's almost see the situation as someone maybe trying to get them out of their normal ways. Almost like the STJ's first thought is "I can't lose my composure here, no matter how upset they get." Instead of stepping out of themselves for a moment to think, "what is really at the heart of the issue here. How can I help this person?" I'm not trying to criticize, it's more just an observation. It appears "cold" and maybe uncaring to others, but your explanations have helped me understand better.
    You have good points here. I should probably clarify that I was thinking of one specific person I know and used to work with. She did not really want to be working and would do things such as call people and say in a really pitiful voice that she had to go to the emergency room and could we cover her hours today? Later we would discover she went for a splinter in her finger (literally) and it was really irritating. She did this sort of thing more than a dozen times while I worked with her and I eventually stopped saying "hi, how's it going" when she called. In self defense I had to instead say something like "hi, how are you, I'm sooo busy today, but did you need something?" Everyone got tired of it. I rarely run into people like that, though.
    Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle. ~Plato

  4. #14
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Some do stuff for attention, but usually because some bigger need of theirs isn't being taken care of. If that gets looked at, they quit doing it as much.

    Yes, you are right that some NFs have a tendancy to not draw boundaries clearly and therefore are taken advantage of. I probably tend to give people the benefit of the doubt a little more than some of my SJ friends, but I have learned that it is also very important to have strong boundaries and pull back or call it what it is when they are crossed.

    NFs tend to make more distinction between a bad behaviour and what is motivating it, rather than seeing it in clearcut terms of right and wrong. If they think that the motivation was fine, but the way of handling it wasn't, they'll cut the person more slack. They will give the other person a chance to modify their behaviour once the person understands what they are doing and how it is perceived. If this is warning is ignored, then they are cut off. I think SJs go directly to that point more quickly because they take the behaviour more at face value.

    Sometimes F types do need to get rid of their excess feelings because those are what is experienced first. This may come out in a form that SJs perceive to be "crying". In reality, it is a way to get done with those feelings so that they can get on with actively solving the problem. It's sort of like a tree fell in their pathway and they have to clear the road before they can continue on. When an SJ sees this as self-pity and attention getting behaviour, it feels like not only are they standing there watching you try to move the tree off the road by yourself, but they are also felling more of them for you to clear.

  5. #15
    Perfect Gentleman! =D d@v3's Avatar
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    Yeah, I guess it is more between taking things at face value and feeling that if someone is "crying" for attention, then they are naive and need to get over it. My compassion extends to those who really need it. Otherwise, I may say a few words of encouragement, but then I will just leave. I know it's kind of mean but... that's how I am I guess. :-/
    Freedom Isn't Free. [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  6. #16
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I want to be sure that I am understanding this accurately. Would you mind giving an example of crying for attention and a situation worthy of compassion? I'm not trying to be difficult, but I would like to know what your perception is of both.

  7. #17
    Senior Member NewEra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    I have a grandfather and a very good friend who are ISTJ's. I don't think my friend has ever seen me show any sort of feelings/emotions (and I get the sense if I ever did show much emotion he wouldn't know what to do), but my grandfather has - when I've been in very difficult situations in life or when we've been at the bedside of an ill family member, etc. Whenever I, or another family member has cried in front of him, he seems to look the other way as if to say, "Oh jeez. What do I do now?" In the case of the ill family member in the hospital, I could tell by looking at him that he was very much affected and feeling something, but he remained very composed.

    Also, with a couple of ESTJ family members, they also seem a bit uncomfortable when someone in the family cries or gets upset. Come to think of it, I've seen my ISTJ grandfather cry one time in my life, that I can remember, and the ESTJ male family member twice (both instances involved someone passing away). I only remember my ESTJ sister crying once when I told her that I really cared about her more than she knows. Even in these rare instance, the crying/emotions were very controlled.

    What is the thought process when someone cries or in heavy situations? Is it the "get me outta here - anywhere but here" type of feeling? Or is it more like, "look at this panzy - can't he control himself?" Or something entirely different?
    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Are there any guy STJs out there who are willing to explain their side of the story?
    Yes. INTPness, if I were in that situation, I would have done exactly what your grandfather did. I'm pretty uncomfortable if it's a really emotional environment. I would not want to be there.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Amira's Avatar
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    I want to be sure that I am understanding this accurately. Would you mind giving an example of crying for attention and a situation worthy of compassion? I'm not trying to be difficult, but I would like to know what your perception is of both.
    Well, above I gave an example of crying simply for getting their way. Most of the time when someone is crying it means they need compassion, even if it's not something that would make me even close to crying. I might not be able to be as obvious and outspoken about it as some people but I do try to "hear" their feelings and wait before trying to fix it. I honestly don't run into many of these situations so it's hard for me to say.
    Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle. ~Plato

  9. #19
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    If I don't really care about the person, I just want to get out of there.

    If I do care about the person, it's a mix of that, and the desire to help but feeling useless because I don't know how to help.

    So the more I care about the person, the more conflicted I am, and determined to do something...

  10. #20
    Perfect Gentleman! =D d@v3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    If I don't really care about the person, I just want to get out of there.

    If I do care about the person, it's a mix of that, and the desire to help but feeling useless because I don't know how to help.

    So the more I care about the person, the more conflicted I am, and determined to do something...
    EXACTLY!
    Freedom Isn't Free. [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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