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  1. #81
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nozflubber View Post
    willyoubemyfriendplz?
    Nah.

  2. #82
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDP2525 View Post
    I totally think ESTJ's have a lot going on in their heads! It's strange that you said hypocrites. I wouldn't use that word but I think I know what you mean. The ESTJ I know, has told me what is annoying to him or what he wouldn't like in someone else and then he has proceeded to date exactly that. Very strange, in my opinion. But yeah, when I've called him out on this he gives no answer or laughs it off. Total eye-roll material for me, just as my INTP silliness, when it kicks in, can usually guarantee an eye-roll from him.
    Yeah, this sort of thing has happened to me a lot. I would react in the same way. Those are sensitive topics, really. I know that if I break what was previously a very strong conviction, I feel really guilty about it, even if the decision itself gave a positive result. So, if someone calls me on it, not only does it feel accusatory and personal, but the person is almost always right. And you know how ESTJs aren't that good at admitting they're wrong...
    So you see what I'm getting at.
    And I'm not sure what it is about the type that causes these situations more, but it can be VERY irritating.

    EDIT: I didn't notice this quote a few pages ago, so I'm going to address it here:

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    EJCC - Yes, yes, I think that's it! So, would it be better for us to explicitly explain that we need their presence and help desperately and how they could do that in practical terms or would that feel like coersion? (All of this is assuming that I've tried not to put them in an unnecessarily stressful situation through lack of planning ahead). Also if they understood the exponentially high payback they would receive emotionally for helping, would that overcome the fear of #2? I mean, the kinds of things I'm referring to doing are like moving tables, or doing the last minute can't-be-done before work that comes with putting on a big event for a crowd or something like that, not mopping up tears with a person in a state of emotional mush. I think for me, it seems very clear when I need help and after stating how much there is to do and how few people there are that I can call on their non-presence tell me they don't want to. I feel like asking them is coersion because since they can see I'm stressed and are not offering help, they've made up their mind. Is that true?
    Explicitly explaining is always a good thing, for us. It wouldn't feel like coersion. It would feel like what it is, which is honesty, and honesty is the best policy, as they say
    If you just hint at all that needs doing, that might look like complaining to them, and not like the call for help that it is. I'd say that it's better to be as direct as possible.
    After a little practice at this, and most importantly, after they notice the pattern (partner under too much emotional pressure = partner in need of help), being helpful in that manner should come more naturally to them.
    Last edited by EJCC; 06-24-2009 at 05:05 AM. Reason: Needed to add another response
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
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    want to ask me something? go for it!

  3. #83
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Wow! I never realized that they'd just see it as complaining rather than as an indirect request to save face in case they don't want to help.

    I had one occasion in particular where I had a guest instructor here for a week. It was a busy time of year and I was ill too. I was giving the instructor rides to and from and hotel, making all his meals and hosting him for them at my house (there's no restaurant in town fit to send someone to for a week), scheduling full days of workshops and then evening events with food, driving the kids that have no rides to and from evening events (in a very spread out rural community), and participating in teaching at the evening events as well. My work day was starting at 7 am and ending after midnight every night. I had made it clear (well what I thought was clear....) that I was overwhelmed and needed help with the evening stuff, but none was offered. At the last minute one of my friends who was in the middle of report cards saw that I really needed her and came to cook pizzas for the kids' supper while the kids and I and the instructor had the evening stuff going on (when you order pizza here, it may come in half an hour or it may come 4 hours later). When I came home, my ESTJ was over at his buddy's watching TV. I got home and he inquired about the evening. I said something about what a godsend my friend was. He realized that I had hoped he'd come and just said matter of factly, "Well I wasn't asked"

    It's funny how what seems obvious in one framework of thinking, really isn't in another. Thanks for the advice.

  4. #84
    Rainy Day Woman MDP2525's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Yeah, this sort of thing has happened to me a lot. I would react in the same way. Those are sensitive topics, really. I know that if I break what was previously a very strong conviction, I feel really guilty about it, even if the decision itself gave a positive result. So, if someone calls me on it, not only does it feel accusatory and personal, but the person is almost always right. And you know how ESTJs aren't that good at admitting they're wrong...
    So you see what I'm getting at.
    And I'm not sure what it is about the type that causes these situations more, but it can be VERY irritating.
    To me, when I call him out on things like this, it's just because I am wondering what his thought process behind his change of mind is. It doesn't matter that he changed his mind. It's more a curiosity like, "okay, how did you go from that to that?" I didn't realize it was so uncomfortable to be called out. I will be much gentler in the future.

    Even getting an ESTJ to talk to you when they are wrong...almost impossible!! It's like they know they were wrong and avoid that conversation at all costs. If you do talk to them be prepared for this....

    Keep in mind, these conversations go sort of like, ME: "you doing this made me feel this way" ESTJ: "I didn't do that." ME (after getting nowhere with ESTJ) "Fine. you don't need to say you were wrong. I know you were wrong and you know it too." (I hate saying that because I feel like I'm letting him off the hook, but at the same time I'm not getting an apology and have to close the argument somehow).

    What the ESTJ should say, "You're right. I'm sorry." If the ESTJ said this right off the bat, the conversation would be over. So, what's the best way to get an apology out of them??
    ~luck favors the ready~


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  5. #85
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDP2525 View Post
    To me, when I call him out on things like this, it's just because I am wondering what his thought process behind his change of mind is. It doesn't matter that he changed his mind. It's more a curiosity like, "okay, how did you go from that to that?"
    Yeah, if you asked me that in one of those situations, I would refuse to answer, because the answer would be something like "I didn't want to at all, because I was AWARE that it violated my principles, but I had no other choice in the matter because my principles were so pure that they weren't realistic in the situation, and oh god I'm such a hypocrite, and PLEASE DON'T TALK TO ME."

    Even getting an ESTJ to talk to you when they are wrong...almost impossible!! It's like they know they were wrong and avoid that conversation at all costs.
    Yeah, that's because they DO know that they were wrong, and they DO avoid that conversation. We're not as oblivious to our own thought processes as one might think we are

    Keep in mind, these conversations go sort of like, ME: "you doing this made me feel this way" ESTJ: "I didn't do that."
    Jeez! Even I don't do that. That sucks.

    What the ESTJ should say, "You're right. I'm sorry." If the ESTJ said this right off the bat, the conversation would be over. So, what's the best way to get an apology out of them??
    Hey! Check it out! I'm admitting that I have no idea!
    I've always had trouble apologizing. Even in elementary school (and younger), when I would get into fights with friends, I would have to write them an apology note instead of telling them in person. It has to do with the whole vulnerability thing. So, I have no idea what YOU could do about it, but if you're friends with an ESTJ, and they tell you about a situation that might warrant an apology, if you convince them that they need to do that, they might. But that's all I can think of at the moment.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
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    want to ask me something? go for it!

  6. #86
    Let's make this showy! raz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post


    Hey! Check it out! I'm admitting that I have no idea!
    I've always had trouble apologizing. Even in elementary school (and younger), when I would get into fights with friends, I would have to write them an apology note instead of telling them in person. It has to do with the whole vulnerability thing. So, I have no idea what YOU could do about it, but if you're friends with an ESTJ, and they tell you about a situation that might warrant an apology, if you convince them that they need to do that, they might. But that's all I can think of at the moment.
    OMG, I know! I want to do things like that, but the vulnerability thing freaks me out. It's so much easier in writing.


  7. #87
    Perfect Gentleman! =D d@v3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beat View Post
    Nah.
    Freedom Isn't Free. [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  8. #88
    Rainy Day Woman MDP2525's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post


    Hey! Check it out! I'm admitting that I have no idea!
    I've always had trouble apologizing. Even in elementary school (and younger), when I would get into fights with friends, I would have to write them an apology note instead of telling them in person. It has to do with the whole vulnerability thing. So, I have no idea what YOU could do about it, but if you're friends with an ESTJ, and they tell you about a situation that might warrant an apology, if you convince them that they need to do that, they might. But that's all I can think of at the moment.
    He apologizes but mostly it is a while after the occurrence happened and it's over with anyway. But more often he comes to me to ask advice about his interactions with others or what he should do in certain circumstances. (normally, he wants to try to run away from handling a situation - usually dealing with emotions). I was quite shocked that he actually does most of what I suggest. I have noticed that if I tell him, "It's the RIGHT thing to do" that goes a long way to him.
    ~luck favors the ready~


    Shameless Self-Promotion:MDP2525's Den and the Start of Motorcycle Maintenance

  9. #89
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Yeah, ESTJs really do listen to their friends, and care immensely about what they have to say, advice-wise. Which puts an ESTJ's friends in a key strategic position... meaning that you could manipulate them a little bit ...meaning that you could get them to apologize whenever it is, as you said, the right thing to do.
    What do you think?
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

  10. #90
    Rainy Day Woman MDP2525's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Yeah, ESTJs really do listen to their friends, and care immensely about what they have to say, advice-wise. Which puts an ESTJ's friends in a key strategic position... meaning that you could manipulate them a little bit ...meaning that you could get them to apologize whenever it is, as you said, the right thing to do.
    What do you think?
    Next time he does something to me I don't like, maybe I'll try to play that card and see if an apology comes sooner! lol...but our disagreements are few and far between, so that's good.

    It really is sort of surprising how much he listens. I remember I once asked him why he was asking ME about all the stuff in his life. He replied, "I know you're honest" At the time, I didn't really get that as being that important to an ESTJ. I guess it's not until talking to you that maybe I realize that he does hold me in high esteem. Aww...I'm touched!
    ~luck favors the ready~


    Shameless Self-Promotion:MDP2525's Den and the Start of Motorcycle Maintenance

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