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  1. #61
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    I am an ENFP but I act like an ISTJ in school. Sure, my N is visible when I am interested and my P is visible when I say precision is overrated. But when not interested I sit there and avoid attracting attention. Most people would think I am boring but if they notice how I really am they don't believe it or are shocked. I really avoid showing my feelings because I show them only to people I trust. But then I am extremely talkative. Sometimes when I am really depressed and I slump they think I'm playing though I feel it. But then I recover myself quickly.

  2. #62
    DoubleplusUngoodNonperson
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    does it matter whether you can see an XSTJs emotions or not? Their feelings are so predictable and linear that I don't think it would even matter....

  3. #63
    Senior Member NewEra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    All three of our families include NTs, NFs, and SJs!
    Count me in as the fourth. My mom's INFJ, my dad's ENTJ, I'm ISTJ. My dad and I can't understand my mom's emotional response, but my mom and I connect since we're both introverts.

  4. #64
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    nozflubber - The exact point I'm making is that our thinking types are so different and they don't verbalize their thought processes so I am left solely with what I extrapolate from their actions. Now that I have more input, yes it is much easier to predict their thought processes. I think you being a T makes it simpler for you to guess as well.

    Chosen One - That's really interesting! Because STJs resolve things in a more contained way (I'll take care of it in my own head or wait for you to take care of it in yours), I think they are also less likely to ever seek out what is causing the miscommunication between types. What "drove" me to this forum was that I need some kind of discussion or information exchange to fix problems and I was getting nowhere doing it the way I was. I wonder if your mum and dad have figured out these differences already. How do they handle it? Also how does the INFJ/ENTJ combo work? I think it could be wonderful as long as both are balanced.

  5. #65
    Senior Member NewEra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Chosen One - That's really interesting! Because STJs resolve things in a more contained way (I'll take care of it in my own head or wait for you to take care of it in yours), I think they are also less likely to ever seek out what is causing the miscommunication between types. What "drove" me to this forum was that I need some kind of discussion or information exchange to fix problems and I was getting nowhere doing it the way I was. I wonder if your mum and dad have figured out these differences already. How do they handle it? Also how does the INFJ/ENTJ combo work? I think it could be wonderful as long as both are balanced.
    The differences for them are not really type-related, mostly involves the way my dad was brought up (in a more harsh environment), where my mom grew up in a friendly (albeit economically poor) environment.

  6. #66
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I wondered if any of you could comment on this: there is a great need for SJs to feel that they are of service. At the same time, I have noticed that sometimes when their partners need their help most, they back off and feel that it is not their obligation.

    I can think of three examples of this with three different couples, all when the partner had a big event to put on and not many people to call on to help out. There was a lot of physical work, but probably their biggest role was to help carry the emotional responsibility of pulling the whole thing off. In all three cases, they bailed. Was it that they needed their help to be asked for more explicitly? Was it that there were any other helpers and the SJ didn't feel they were as needed or wouldn't get the credit that they had earned from their past involvements? Was this a way of "getting back" at the other person for some unrelated problem? Is it that they feel more separate and that it was just the other person's responsibility? Could it be that they thought the other person should have been able to figure out an efficient way to do it themselves?

    This especially puzzles me because in general I have found them to be most helpful: doing things like packing the car, fixing things for someone, thinking ahead for the other person about details they might forget, and so on. They also have seemed extraordinarily easy going about things that would bother others like being patient while their partner is shopping, being fairly flexible about plans, or being happy to give rides and be of service generally. Why does it change for something like this?

    The other thing I noticed from several posts on one of these threads sometimes giving help is seen as an obligation and that it is also only given to those who you are close to or who deserve it. When you help people you don't know well, it is more about proving your own competence? When you help people you care about, why do you do it and under what circumstances do you resent doing it (or decide not to)?

  7. #67
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nozflubber View Post
    does it matter whether you can see an XSTJs emotions or not? Their feelings are so predictable and linear that I don't think it would even matter....
    :steam:

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I wondered if any of you could comment on this: there is a great need for SJs to feel that they are of service. At the same time, I have noticed that sometimes when their partners need their help most, they back off and feel that it is not their obligation.

    ...Was it that they needed their help to be asked for more explicitly? Was it that there were any other helpers and the SJ didn't feel they were as needed or wouldn't get the credit that they had earned from their past involvements? Was this a way of "getting back" at the other person for some unrelated problem? Is it that they feel more separate and that it was just the other person's responsibility? Could it be that they thought the other person should have been able to figure out an efficient way to do it themselves?
    STJs, I think, are generally very good at noticing things that need to be done and then doing those things. They take responsibility for getting things done pretty easily, generally. But "emotional responsibility" is a whole different thing. I'm not sure why they do that, but I kind of think it's a combination of these two things:
    1. An irrational "Oh, he/she's got it covered, so I'll just sit back".
    2. A fear of emotional commitment/insecurity about personal ability to handle emotional commitments/fear of the unknown (with the unknown in this case being... emotional commitments).
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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    want to ask me something? go for it!

  8. #68
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    1. Have you considered that others don't like the feeling of being "the weak one" all the time. They want to feel that they have something worthwhile to offer you and that you might turn to them if you ever needed comfort.
    I would hope I can help a close one to not feel weak... Also, I'm only human. If things ever get so low, I'll confide in someone I trust. I don't really have anyone like that though... Besides my mom. But, she's my mom...

    2. Is it because you are worried that people will use your vulnerabilities against you that you do not share them?
    No.
    3. Do you look down on those who do let their guard down to you? Do you wish they were more stoic or independent or less needy?
    I believe I'm fair and just. If someone I love is genuinely hurting or in need of support, I'll be behind them all the way. However, sometimes people will continually put themselves in bad situations and won't do anything to help their own condition. I don't have a lot of patience for that.
    4. Is it more about how others will view you if you show weakness, or is it the panicky feeling you will induce in yourself by doing so?
    I just hate the feeling of being weak/vulnerable. It's a very insecure state to be in.
    5. Do you like the feeling of people relying on you when they are at a low point or need help with something, or do you find it an obligation?
    Totally depends. Refer to my answer in question 3.

  9. #69
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nozflubber View Post
    does it matter whether you can see an XSTJs emotions or not? Their feelings are so predictable and linear that I don't think it would even matter....
    I friggin love you

    I bet you didn't see that one coming, ass.

  10. #70
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    noz flubber - Are you just trying to make the STJs mad like angry hornets for the heck of it? Please don't. We could set up a nice fight on another thread though if you're looking for a bit of controversy....

    EJCC - Yes, yes, I think that's it! So, would it be better for us to explicitly explain that we need their presence and help desperately and how they could do that in practical terms or would that feel like coersion? (All of this is assuming that I've tried not to put them in an unnecessarily stressful situation through lack of planning ahead). Also if they understood the exponentially high payback they would receive emotionally for helping, would that overcome the fear of #2? I mean, the kinds of things I'm referring to doing are like moving tables, or doing the last minute can't-be-done before work that comes with putting on a big event for a crowd or something like that, not mopping up tears with a person in a state of emotional mush. I think for me, it seems very clear when I need help and after stating how much there is to do and how few people there are that I can call on their non-presence tell me they don't want to. I feel like asking them is coersion because since they can see I'm stressed and are not offering help, they've made up their mind. Is that true?

    Beat - I feel that "helping a person not feel weak" is different than you actually leaning on them for either advice, assistance, expertise or support in some way. The first feels patronizing, whereas the second feels like we are equals in a partnership in which you see me as someone who has something to offer you. Your response for number 3 though seems perfectly reasonable. There are some people who do not learn from their mistakes.

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