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  1. #51
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    EJCC -
    With both people, I've tried, to no avail and with increasingly bad results. I know that one on one is the way to go, in a matter-of-fact manner, not too pushy, not expecting big emotion and not purporting to know how they feel already. Giving concrete observation of behaviour that leads me to believe there is a problem and matter of factly stating care for and offering a listening ear to the person in question is good. Allowing for more silent time or even an interval of time with ISTJs is also useful. Not expecting to see immediate reaction to my words on the STJ's face is important as is realizing that they are not intentionally trying to be hurtful. Perhaps explaining the common pitfalls in the two communication styles in layman's terms so that they have an idea of how to prepare may be of help (This I haven't tried, because until now I wasn't sure enough of where they were coming from). Does that sound like a reasonable summary? Have I missed anything or misunderstood anything so far? Then an almost blunt assessment of the situation as I see it?

    I also wondered, if someone can accurately guess what the STJ is feeling and states that (in an appropriate manner), will the STJ feel vulnerable and unfairly exposed and layer up even more?

    For us, feeling understood by someone is the biggest comfort and compliment one could give. Even the desire to understand us is a huge help (and this can be done asking concrete questions). I too am careful about revealing too much lest it be stomped on, yet my need for intimacy (top of the needs list for NFs, towards the bottom for STJs) compells me to. Therefore, when it does get stomped on (even unknowingly), there are larger and larger chunks of me that you'll never see and yet I'll wish that you wanted to. Because you have less information, you'll also have less context for figuring out my behaviour, which makes you antsy when it starts impacting you negatively.

    Amira - That's a very accurate assessment of it. I think that you are right that the STJ would still feel burdened by all the little problems and the NF just couldn't go off on their own and deal with it (maybe they could to handle more things in stride, but not everything.) It's funny you should say about some people feeling conflict brings them closer. I do not fly off the handle easily, but on one occasion I did with someone older than me that I worked with and who had pushed their luck in every way possible. I ended up telling him what I thought, he ended up giving more context and showing how badly he felt, we came to some agreement for how we could work together better in the future and things have gone swimmingly since, with great mutual respect. I don't like drama in my life but I also realize that compared to the way STJs naturally function, I would still be considered oversensitive.

    I'm also really glad that you wrote out how you would see the most comfortable way to handle things as being. I need to mull...

    An interesting thread that one ENTJ just started is called "The iceman and the child". I wonder if it will bring further answers...

    I really appreciate everyone's participation and patience in getting this thing figured out. How lucky are we???

  2. #52
    Senior Member Amira's Avatar
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    With both people, I've tried, to no avail and with increasingly bad results. I know that one on one is the way to go, in a matter-of-fact manner, not too pushy, not expecting big emotion and not purporting to know how they feel already. Giving concrete observation of behaviour that leads me to believe there is a problem and matter of factly stating care for and offering a listening ear to the person in question is good. Allowing for more silent time or even an interval of time with ISTJs is also useful. Not expecting to see immediate reaction to my words on the STJ's face is important as is realizing that they are not intentionally trying to be hurtful. Perhaps explaining the common pitfalls in the two communication styles in layman's terms so that they have an idea of how to prepare may be of help (This I haven't tried, because until now I wasn't sure enough of where they were coming from). Does that sound like a reasonable summary? Have I missed anything or misunderstood anything so far? Then an almost blunt assessment of the situation as I see it?
    Sounds like a good summary.

    And actually:
    For us, feeling understood by someone is the biggest comfort and compliment one could give. Even the desire to understand us is a huge help (and this can be done asking concrete questions).
    I think that is one thing NFs and SJs have in common (people in general, really). Or at least, I like it when people are trying to understand my personality and what makes me tick. As you might have observed, when someone takes the time to ask questions and listen to the answers I will get quite chatty! Most people nowadays are too busy to do that for many people at all, which I think is sad.
    Last edited by Amira; 06-22-2009 at 08:45 PM. Reason: spelling clean up
    Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle. ~Plato

  3. #53
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    But how come when I have tried this with other SJs that you people, they just avoid the question or dismiss it? This is what I want to do, because I am aware that it is very uncomfortable for anyone to feel that someone is upset with them frequently. I feel as if I have discovered some kind of gold mine here!

  4. #54
    Let's make this showy! raz's Avatar
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    This thread has so lost me.


  5. #55
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amira View Post
    Sounds like a good summary.
    I agree. You've got it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amira View Post
    I think that is one thing NFs and SJs have in common (people in general, really). Or at least, I like it when people are trying to understand my personality and what makes me tick. As you might have observed, when someone takes the time to ask questions and listen to the answers I will get quite chatty! Most people nowadays are too busy to do that for many people at all, which I think is sad.
    +1. Some people get put off when I ask them a lot of questions about things, but they don't realize that I LOVE it when people ask ME a lot of questions. It's like in that thread about SJs and surveys.
    We DO have a lot of common ground with NFs. Which is kind of not what I was expecting from this thread. But you know.

    Quote Originally Posted by raz View Post
    This thread has so lost me.
    LOL. NFs are so confusing.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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  6. #56
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Sorry Raz,

    Didn't mean to ditch you. I've just noticed a lot of hostility towards ESTJ types in particular and many more who don't understand ISTJs. Having experienced my own troubles with it myself I think we now recognize where some of the fundamental differences lie and how that might be mutually beneficial to us. I think EJCC in particular has been willing to weigh in on it because she has an NF parent, and I have a SJ parent so there are some common places where the two of us could have respectively made mistakes in relating to them (plus she likes to be of service). I'm not sure about Amira's parents, but she seems to recognize the dynamics of the two types reacting badly to each other and is willing to explore why. Start another thread though and I'll go whatever direction you take it or I'll leave your SJ inner fortresses alone if you'd prefer.

    Fidelia

  7. #57
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Yeah, I'm sorry too. I definitely had a hand in derailing the conversation.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I think EJCC in particular has been willing to weigh in on it because she has an NF parent, and I have a SJ parent so there are some common places where the two of us could have respectively made mistakes in relating to them (plus she likes to be of service).
    You noticed!!
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

  8. #58
    Senior Member Amira's Avatar
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    But how come when I have tried this with other SJs that you people, they just avoid the question or dismiss it? This is what I want to do, because I am aware that it is very uncomfortable for anyone to feel that someone is upset with them frequently. I feel as if I have discovered some kind of gold mine here!
    Honestly, I'm not really sure how to get people to open up IRL if they don't want to. I run into that problem all the time myself, with all the different types. If someone has an answer please tell me too! For the record my parents are Mom - INTJ and Dad - INFP.

    EJCC, I agree that there are several interesting similarities I hadn't quite realized before about SJs and NFs. It's cool... My sis is ENFP and we've always gotten along really well and we laugh about it like, "We're opposite personalities, how comes this works?!"
    Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle. ~Plato

  9. #59
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    All three of our families include NTs, NFs, and SJs!

    Yes EJCC, that's one of the reasons why I like SJs - you do like to be of service and you do it so well. You specifically have een most generous on several threads.

    Amira, I'm really glad at least to get pointed in the right direction and know whether I am doing anything that would prevent someone from opening up. I wish there was a go to representative here for each type that could do the same kind of thing. It seems so straightforward and obvious when you are that type, and so foreign and wrong to understanding their thinking when you aren't that type.

    Here are two examples of places where my parents' similar interests (but with different motivations) come out. There are many more.

    1) Family - Both place great value on family but it displays itself in different ways. My dad was always the main provider and facilitator as well as paperwork person, while my mum provided the human element and plannned things that brought colour and warmth and developed our potential. My dad was happy to pay for gas to visit our extended family, or factored in phone costs to stay in touch, as well as giving my mum the emotional freedom to visit her family or stay up talking late. He liked it that she laughed so much and that it made her happy. He conveyed to us that family was worthwhile. My mum tried to matchmake us to my dad's family, whom we were less close to and who were less warm and did not get as involved with us. She made that side of the family come alive and talked to his aunties about their growing up years so that she could tell us about it.

    2) Geneology - My dad revels in keeping track of who was born when and contacting distant relatives to find out more. He has kept meticulous binders for each strand of both his and my mum's family and travelled on trips to visit relatives. He likes the organizing and record keeping and cataloguing. My mum on the other hand has built on the information he has to access more of the human interest part of things and told stories that make those people real. She visits the places they came from to see if there are connections between those people and who we are now. They complement each other well.

    Despite the different communication styles, I actually think we have a lot in common!

  10. #60
    Let's make this showy! raz's Avatar
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    STJ and NFP relationships can work as long as you're willing to accept the fact that a personality that's opposite of you can be beneficial. I mean, we use the same 4 functions, just in different orders. You can use that to semi-understand eachother enough to meet halfway.

    I've just always known NFPs to be my "arch nemesis" so to speak. I've just "felt" it my entire life, that they knew about a world completely opposite of my own, and that that world would continuously wreak havoc on my own unless I recognized it. I made that conclusion like 5-6 years ago.

    But to answer the question about people seeing my true feelings, I can think of 4-5 people online that I'm not afraid to open up completely to. In real life, oh shit. Actually, now that I think about it, I think it's an ENFJ, INFJ and ENFP that I've opened up the most to. The ENFJ and INFJ are pretty tied. The ENFP and I can connect well, but like I said, it requires that acceptance of an opposition, so we both have to be in the right states of mind. I've have to say though that the ENFP is MUCH better at "guessing" what I'm feeling than the NFJs.


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