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  1. #41
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I'm so glad if gives you some clues as to other's behaviour!

    I've seen those kinds of patterns in both my mum and dad's relationship (ENFJ and ISTJ) and mine (INFJ with ESTJ). I also have a friend who married an STJ (ENFP with ESTJ) and another friend dating an STJ (ISFJ with ESTJ). At least in the NF cases, I think the STJ either feels defeated or else goes on as usual despite the displays of emotion, hoping it will all sort itself out. The NF nearly always feels rejected and after years on a roller coaster of investment/hope/rejection/resentment/one way disclosure finally withdraws emotionally so that they can remain physically well. However, it remains the deepest sadness they have because they have invested everything they have into the relationship. Even if marriage and family are extremely important, it appears to me that all of the STJs eggs are not all in the one basket.

    All of the aforementioned relationships are in various stages and ages in life. My parents have been together for over 40 years and their two types have in many ways been a good combination. As time has gone on though, they have increasingly led parallel existences due to unresolved conflicts, much to my mother's sorrow. They both still love each other and they are very committed to the idea of marriage. If more understanding of each other could happen, I don't think it would be too late even now for things to change. Unfortunately, I don't imagine it will.

  2. #42
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    It never occurred to me that the STJs didn't realize that.
    Yet more proof that STJs and NFs are on VERY different wavelengths. Which is why threads like this are such a great idea I never would have known about that thought process otherwise.

    At least in the NF cases, I think the STJ either feels defeated or else goes on as usual despite the displays of emotion, hoping it will all sort itself out. The NF nearly always feels rejected and after years on a roller coaster of investment/hope/rejection/resentment/one way disclosure finally withdraws emotionally so that they can remain physically well. However, it remains the deepest sadness they have because they have invested everything they have into the relationship. Even if marriage and family are extremely important, it appears to me that all of the STJs eggs are not all in the one basket.
    This is so, so sad! What miscommunication! And yet they both mean well in what they're doing.
    What fascinates me about the NF relationship view you've been describing is that both STJs and NFs have a need to be useful to their partner, which, if not fulfilled, can only make things worse for them. Only the NF need is something that the STJs often try desperately to avoid - opening up.
    I know I'm repeating myself (a LOT), but thanks again for answering my question in such depth. Very, VERY helpful.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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  3. #43
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Can I just say how wonderful this thread is, with fidelia facilitating discussion and understanding and the xSTJs opening up! This is what MBTI is supposed to do, enlighten and open pathways of communication.

    I'm very happy to see this!
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  4. #44
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    EJCC don't worry about repeating yourself. I find it helps to understand it better when different people say the same thing in different ways. So here's the question - can this problem be overcome? I mean, I think most NFs could settle for way less emoting if they felt that the STJ could open up in other ways. Is this likely to be able to occur though? I don't think of many of those other things as being horribly vulnerable, but from looking at my dad and at my ex boyfriend, it looks like they are. On the other hand, maybe they just aren't aware of the same things that you didn't know from the last couple of posts. In my own way I've tried to make them aware, but often it is in the midst of feeling angry or sad which is too distracting and also invalidates much of what I am saying to them. I have never really thought it out as thoroughly and articulated it out loud as I have here. What do you think the best way would be to approach it?

  5. #45
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    I do !
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  6. #46
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    I've seen these types when they're stressed and it's interesting because they are both (especially ESTJs) extremely confident most of the time, or at least come across as such. Since the inferior of ESTJs is introverted feeling, I can read on their faces if they feel scared or unsure. However, they are less likely to talk about it than most other types. With ISTJs, introverted feeling is a notch higher on their list, but it's a similar story. Ironically, ISTJs are even quieter about their feelings sometimes, I think, because they're introverted.
    A hero is someone who does the right thing without expectation of reward, just because it's the right thing to do.

  7. #47
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    So what do you do, particularly if what is bothering them is becoming destuctive to the relationship? I couldn't tell at first, but now can fairly accurately tell with both types when there is something wrong. I just am not sure how to help...

  8. #48
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    In regards to NFs trying to fix things - if they have tried verbally to no avail, they will often resort to written communication. Now from what I have read from your responses, there is nothing wrong with this.

    However, NFs tend to use it as a way to bleed off excess emotion and to try to solicit a response to clear up the situation. The first is ineffective with STJs and only alarms them and the second often results in acting like it didn't happen (no acknowledgement). I, and I would venture to say NFs in general cannot handle indifference. Even hatred would be better than indifference to them.

    So, in some cases, the scenario goes like this: NF tries in person - no response. NF explains what they are feeling and how it is impacting them on paper - no response. NF starts feeling that perhaps they were hasty, plus now they are worried that the lack of response means the other person is angry AND the original problem hasn't been cleared up. So the NF apologizes in writing and says that they overreacted and they have been doing some thinking and they'll be alright. Then the STJ feels inwardly or outwardly resentful to have been the recipient of upsetting emotions that now are just wiped away with several keystrokes. Just like that! Either the NF must be fickle, they think, or else they are mean to upset them like that on a whim. Either way, this cannot continue! The NF meanwhile still has two problems that haven't been cleared up plus they just swallowed down a bunch of resentful feelings and apologized even though they felt they had been wronged and now are the recipient of the STJs disgust or frustration. And so now the resentful feelings emerge again, eventually making them lash out and the STJ feel hurt and surprised (but again not outwardly showing it).

    How can this cycle be avoided?

  9. #49
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Maybe if you just mention the issue in question to them? Or if you otherwise bring it up/get them to bring it up in private (one-on-one) conversation. If you're a friend, and you mention it directly to them (maybe asking questions? Like "How's the project going?" Oh, what am I doing trying to give tact suggestions to an INFJ??? Fail!
    Being indirect about it, e.g. "I care about you, and I'm here for you when you need someone to talk to", may not cut it in certain situations, since it requires the STJ to take initiative (which they probably won't - keep in mind that what's required here is for them to do something that's against their instincts, and STJs aren't so good with risks). But I think, deep inside, I really do want to bring up some things that are nagging at me. So, with a little encouragement, I'll let you in.
    But the way I see it, the best solution would be one where you are (almost) blunt with them. In this thread, you've (skillfully) revealed a giant miscommunication that's common in STJ/NF relations, and maybe the STJ should know about it too (in its most basic, non-MBTI-specific, non-technical form). Just that you know that they're having a tough time, but... yeah, I'll let the ones with emotional intelligence and tact finish that sentence.
    Last edited by EJCC; 06-25-2009 at 03:04 AM.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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    want to ask me something? go for it!

  10. #50
    Senior Member Amira's Avatar
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    Oh, what am I doing trying to give tact suggestions to an INFJ??? Fail!
    EJCC, that is the first time in a LONG time that I actually did splurt a little on my keyboard! ROFL.

    However, NFs tend to use it as a way to bleed off excess emotion and to try to solicit a response to clear up the situation. The first is ineffective with STJs and only alarms them and the second often results in acting like it didn't happen (no acknowledgement). I, and I would venture to say NFs in general cannot handle indifference. Even hatred would be better than indifference to them.

    So, in some cases, the scenario goes like this: NF tries in person - no response. NF explains what they are feeling and how it is impacting them on paper - no response. NF starts feeling that perhaps they were hasty, plus now they are worried that the lack of response means the other person is angry AND the original problem hasn't been cleared up. So the NF apologizes in writing and says that they overreacted and they have been doing some thinking and they'll be alright. Then the STJ feels inwardly or outwardly resentful to have been the recipient of upsetting emotions that now are just wiped away with several keystrokes. Just like that! Either the NF must be fickle, they think, or else they are mean to upset them like that on a whim. Either way, this cannot continue! The NF meanwhile still has two problems they that haven't been cleared up plus they just swallowed down a bunch of resentful feelings and apologized even though they felt they had been wronged and now are the recipient of the STJs disgust or frustration. And so now the resentful feelings emerge again, eventually making them lash out and the STJ feel hurt and surprised (but again not outwardly showing it).

    How can this cycle be avoided?
    Ouchie, that sounds a little too familiar... Yeah. You are right that NFs can handle any emotion better than being ignored. It took me a LONG time to get that. I still barely understand it, but it is a fact as told to me by lots of people. When someone is mad at me I would prefer they tell me and then go away and let me fix it and then we can be all happy again, OR that they decide it's trivial and go away for a bit until they can be back to normal. I do those two things quite naturally and it SEEMED like a good way to preserve someone's dignity and not bother them with my momentary frustrations. Ha and double ha. I see people all the time get mad at each for what seem to me very, very minor things and they have a little tiff and end with apologies and seem happy to have had a fight because it meant they spent more time together and they connected more. Yikes! I guess I'm freaked out by this partly because emotions seem so very powerful and confusing to me that when I let loose things can get pretty messy for a while. Seriously, if I was in a marriage like one of my friends where they are constantly being blissful, then stressed, then grumpy, then talking it over, then joking about something, then blissful and gooey, then ticked at the driver over there (all in the space of maybe 30 minutes!) I think I would get ulcers!
    Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle. ~Plato

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