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  1. #31
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I have noticed with all of you that you are very willing to be of service as this is an area that you feel competent to offer help in. It seems to me that the main reason emotional displays make you uncomfortable is that you are not sure how to react correctly. In cases where you are less likely to know what to do (eg person close to you comes to you and starts crying) would it help you if they were to tell you at some other previous time what you could do best to be of aid to them? Would that ease some of the discomfort for you? I have wondered about this, because most of the SJs I see at work want desperately to know if they are doing what is needed of them and how well they are doing it (ie are they on the right track and fulfilling their obligations). When they are told specifically what is expected of them and given feedback, they seem fairly happy to comply and fret considerably less because they feel properly prepared. Does this extend to interpersonal relationships?
    I think your assessment here was really good.

    However, it would seem a little weird to give instructions ahead of time for how I should handle you in case you become distraught. I know that logically it seems it would be very useful for SJs; I see that, too. Kind of nitpicking, but delivering the advice in an unconvential way like that might make it hard for me to trust that advice. (even if I'd trust you personally) I'm trying to judge whether this would actually be a problem, or whether it's just in my head.

  2. #32
    Senior Member NewEra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    1. Have you considered that others don't like the feeling of being "the weak one" all the time. They want to feel that they have something worthwhile to offer you and that you might turn to them if you ever needed comfort.
    This is something I admittedly have trouble with.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    2. Is it because you are worried that people will use your vulnerabilities against you that you do not share them?
    That's somewhat true, that it'll come back later on to bite me in the butt.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    3. Do you look down on those who do let their guard down to you? Do you wish they were more stoic or independent or less needy?
    No, I don't look down on them, to each his/her own, and people are different.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    4. Is it more about how others will view you if you show weakness, or is it the panicky feeling you will induce in yourself by doing so?
    Hmm... even though both are factors, I'd say it's more about how others will view me. But then again the way others view me is one of the categories I want to be good or above good in.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    5. Do you like the feeling of people relying on you when they are at a low point or need help with something, or do you find it an obligation?
    Honestly I do find it more of an obligation/job than anything else.

  3. #33
    Let's make this showy! raz's Avatar
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    1. Have you considered that others don't like the feeling of being "the weak one" all the time. They want to feel that they have something worthwhile to offer you and that you might turn to them if you ever needed comfort.

    Sounds logical. It'd only really be considered if it seemed beneficial to the relationship. It sounds like something worth trying and acknowledging.

    2. Is it because you are worried that people will use your vulnerabilities against you that you do not share them?

    Yep. If I open up too much, people have the ability to take their disagreement with my opinion and alter something that may affect my life negatively. That's one thing I'm consistently afraid of and has to be kept an eye out for.

    3. Do you look down on those who do let their guard down to you? Do you wish they were more stoic or independent or less needy?

    If someone lets their guard down in a time frame that seems quick, then I begin to question their character.

    4. Is it more about how others will view you if you show weakness, or is it the panicky feeling you will induce in yourself by doing so?

    Both.

    5. Do you like the feeling of people relying on you when they are at a low point or need help with something, or do you find it an obligation?

    Depends on the person. I don't have to always care. As long as the other person's emotional state does not affect my life, I gauge whether to help them based on my emotional attachment to them. Do I care for them? Does their opinion matter to me? It's more like judging whether it just makes me feel better to know I rose to a challenge at times or just felt better to help them. I don't "feel good" about helping someone every second of the day like some people.


  4. #34
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Cimarron - I thought about that angle of it too. I know it would seem very odd for someone to give you instructions for handling them. It would almost have to be based on some kind of past occasion that had seemed awkward. Something that just makes it so that it doesn't seem like you are being expected to find some unknown item in some unknown location and then the person gets upset if you don't find it.

    Or maybe it's along the same lines that someone might say, "If you ever get locked out of my place when I'm gone, you can find a spare key in the laundry room under the box of dryer sheets".

  5. #35
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    EJCC - In answer to your question, I think that "putting yourself out there" maybe is the most important to NFs, although it may also be to others (I've never had a chance to ask them). If I ask for help occasionally when needed, look to someone for advice or expertise, turn to them for comfort, express some form of appreciation, accommodate their schedule or needs, or accept a favour they offer to do for me, place something in their care or trust them to run an errand etc these are all slightly vulnerable things. They mean that I trust the other person enough to not take advantage of me and I am also complimenting them by saying that they are competent, reliable and the first person I would go to, trusting that my needs will be met.
    Thank you for answering. That's very helpful. The NFs I know are mysteries to me in so many ways, that it's good to hear how they feel about things like this. You usually don't hear them verbalize these thoughts - they're pretty reserved about it.
    Now, your definition of "putting yourself out there" is SO different from what I had expected! I was expecting more things like the bolded statement, i.e. putting yourself out there in a very emotional way, while the rest of them are much easier. I would hesitate from doing many of those things with people I care about because I wouldn't want to burden them, but if you actually appreciate that sort of thing every once and a while, I will definitely keep it in mind, especially with the NFs I know.

    When the other person will do none of those things in return, they are in essence saying I am the last person they would go to, that I am unreliable, untrustworthy, and incompetent to meet any of their needs (and everyone does have needs!). They also are implying that I am weak and an obligation, while they are strong and self-sufficient. They may not actually feel that way, but that is how it is perceived. This is worsened especially when criticisms and corrections are voiced more openly than feelings of love or appreciation.
    Oh, okay. Yeah, I never mean it like that. It's usually a selfish reaction for me, and I never mean to imply anything with it. But thank you for telling me.

    For me, I think finding an area where the person actually does trust and value my competence and then seeking help in that area (whether it is doing a favour, trusting me with a job without overseeing or advising, pursuing a skill that I have, asking for help or advice even in a small way) would all go a long ways to me believing that they trust and respect me.
    That's how I am, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    I think your assessment here was really good.
    Seconded. Thumbs up.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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    want to ask me something? go for it!

  6. #36
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    You and the others writing have been a huge help to me both in understanding your thinking and also in verbalizing mine. The reason NFs may sometimes wish you to turn to them for comfort is because they are truly confused about what is going on with you in your head and they just want to know. Visible emotions are the only thing they can think of to confirm their guesses in the absence of verbalized information.

    I've noticed a pattern with my ESTJ that when something has embarrassed him or he feels guilty/unsettled/anxious/uncertain in some way, he needs to be alone. It would have been so much easier if he had just said that! Without it, then the NF starts wildly imagining terrible things and becomes worried about the relationship etc. They then become emotional and won't give the STJ enough space which increases the stress the XSTJ is already feeling. This prompts a stronger reaction in the STJ, which starts the cyle over but with greater extremes.

    NFs also really need to feel helpful and wanted. That is difficult when interacting with a type who likes to feel independent and competent on their own and who don't verbalize much of their thoughts or show their vulnerabilities. NFs long to be burdened with your problems and to do nice things for you. It means you trust us. You think you're being nice by not bothering us but we really really want to do something for you and we just think you don't believe we are competent enough (again resulting in unwelcome emotional displays). Some of the things we do that you find annoying are actually precisely what would make us very happy and more independent people if you did them around us. (Don't panic, I'm not talking about sappy emoting). It's like we cannot venture out until we feel that our home base is established and secure. So some of the time when you wish we'd get on with solving our own problems and getting our own stuff done, we can't until we have enough information and reassurance that things are fine with the important people to us.

  7. #37
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    We have discussed in another thread how ESTJs feel horrible amounts of worry about undecided future events/decisions which they cannot control or feel properly prepared for. NFs on the other hand feel horrible amounts of worry about unknown emotional situations that could surprise them because they cannot properly prepare for them. Just as you want to know in a work situation what is expected of you and how you are doing, NFs want to know in a personal situation how they can best fulfill their duties and what you think of their performance.

    The reluctance to "burden" an NF with your problems actually alleviates their problems considerably. You are giving the NF more information about your state of mind, which allows them to figure out a course of action that will be appropriate to both of you. This in turn benefits you, because it eliminates you responding to their unplanned emotional improvising. They feel very put on the spot when they have to improvise like that. Like you, they want to be good at what they do. Being treated coldly or patronizingly for being oversensitive and overemotional when they haven't been given enough information to work with is the equivalent of a boss yelling at you in front of your co-workers when s/he has refused to give you any guidelines for what he expects even when you have asked and have tried your best.
    Last edited by fidelia; 06-22-2009 at 04:10 PM.

  8. #38
    Senior Member NewEra's Avatar
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    ^^That's very interesting, fidelia. I never knew that, it is helpful.

  9. #39
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    It never occurred to me that the STJs didn't realize that. This is another reason why NFs react emotionally. They give you a lot of credit for being efficient, planning ahead and knowing what you are doing. Therefore they think you are purposefully withholding information (to keep them uncertain or at a disadvantage) and then you are scornful of or indifferent to the resulting emotion. As a result, they get alternatingly mean to know if you even care about them or not and sad when there's no response and they "realize" you don't. You feel that your presence and reliability should be an obvious sign of love for them, but it isn't felt as being enough. Eventually you throw up your hands and wonder what this crazy, emotional person wants anyway and continue on with your day. (I'm not saying all interactions go this way, but when they go unpleasantly, this is a big factor in why they do.)

    While I did figure some of this out earlier, you people have given me some more tools to sort out my STJ interactions and make sense of them. For the most part, more information on both sides=happier people on both sides, often with only slight modifications in what they are doing.

  10. #40
    Senior Member Amira's Avatar
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    Those last two posts are very enlightening, Fidelia. I think I understand some more things about certain people now.
    Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle. ~Plato

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