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  1. #21
    Senior Member NewEra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Chosen One - Do you see sharing what you feel as a weakness/waste of time mostly because you use Thinking as your main function and so feel that the Feeling function is extraneous to the decisions you make?
    Well, sort of. I'm not a robot or anything, I do have feelings, but I choose not to share them. My introverted feeling is very high, and it really keeps me on track many times when my head is not on straight.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Everyone - I want to understand this better. I cannot avoid feeling something and can't imagine how it would require thought to figure out what you feel. When something happens to you, what goes through your head first if it is not feelings??? I realize that some types are more independent than others. Are there really no moments when you wish that someone truly understood who you were all the way through? Or would that just feel like a big invasion of privacy?
    Good questions, all of them. When something happens to me, I may feel things but I'm admittedly not in tune with them as much, and not as aware of what I feel because I automatically don't pay as much attention to them. I constantly wish others knew who I was all the way through but I'm not comfortable letting my feelings out in the open to make sure they understand me. Privacy has something to do with it, I don't want to give out too much information.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Would you ever think over things that have happened in your life and assess what you liked and what should have been different? Most of the SJs I know would be more likely to just say "What is, is, so why worry about it?" So if that is indeed the case, what informs your future decisions and how do you go about gathering information?
    I usually never look back into the past, and say I should have done this, or I shouldn't have done that. I worry more about the immediate future than the past.

  2. #22
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    1. Have you considered that others don't like the feeling of being "the weak one" all the time. They want to feel that they have something worthwhile to offer you and that you might turn to them if you ever needed comfort.
    I hadn't thought that before, really. But if I did need comfort, I would turn to them. I recognize that I need that, sometimes. I just don't like opening up like that. And when I said "the weak one", I really didn't mean it that way.

    2. Is it because you are worried that people will use your vulnerabilities against you that you do not share them?
    Oh no. Paranoia has nothing to do with it. It's more of the fact that I don't want their image of me to be one that involves vulnerability. I want them to see me as strong. If they see me cry, I want them to think "Wow, I've never seen her cry before! This must be serious", as opposed to "What a sensitive person. Poor sweetie." Ugh. I REALLY don't want to be that.

    3. Do you look down on those who do let their guard down to you? Do you wish they were more stoic or independent or less needy?
    No to the first question and yes to the second. It's a double standard, really - I understand that many people are more sensitive and/or more willing to open up, and I don't look down on them for it. (Although, to my horror, when I've seen people getting emotional about something that we both had experienced, that didn't affect me at all, I've found myself thinking "Jeez! It's not THAT big a deal!")
    With regard to the second question, I think this is where the whole ESTJ-as-a-very-masculine-type thing comes in. If I were a man, this wouldn't be as weird, to be sure, but I always want to be the stereotypical male image with regard to emotions: strong, protective, fearless, a shoulder to cry on, but one who never needs to cry. (Also, I've wanted to be a "badass" since I was about ten. I collected Wolverine comics as a kid - his machismo always appealed to me.) Not that this ideal is healthy, and I know that it's unachievable anyways, but sometimes I think to myself "Wouldn't it be cool if I was like that?"
    I told my INFJ mom that whole story recently, and she looked worried for me. She didn't relate at all. She said "But that isn't healthy! You don't want to be like that!" And I had to explain to her "It's a fantasy on the level of wishing for superhuman strength! I know it doesn't work!" But either way, I wonder if any other T women on this forum have a very masculine ideal for themselves like that.

    4. Is it more about how others will view you if you show weakness, or is it the panicky feeling you will induce in yourself by doing so?
    If in front of people I don't know, it's more of the embarrassment. I feel like I have to go up to people afterwards and tell them that I'm actually not that much of a wimp. When around close friends/family, it's more the feelings I get. Either way, it's both.

    5. Do you like the feeling of people relying on you when they are at a low point or need help with something, or do you find it an obligation?
    I love it. It means that they really trust me, and being a trusty go-to person is essentially my dream in life. It feels great to give advice, or a shoulder to cry on, or anything else like that, and have it be recognized and appreciated. (Why do you think I started my "Ask an ESTJ" thread? )
    EDIT: I only love it when I know how to react. When it doesn't come naturally to me, and when there's crying involved, then not so much.
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  3. #23
    Rainy Day Woman MDP2525's Avatar
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    Is it common for you STJ types to "ebb and flow" with people in your life? I'm trying to decide how to describe the behavior I witness...but essentially you are really all about someone's company for a few weeks, calling them and wanting to hang out (I'm not speaking about romance here but as friends) and then disappear for a month or so only to repeat said process over and over again? If this sounds familiar...why do you do this?
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  4. #24
    Perfect Gentleman! =D d@v3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Most of you have made reference to not wanting to feel vulnerable and wanting to be the strong one rather than the weak one. I have more questions then:

    1. Have you considered that others don't like the feeling of being "the weak one" all the time. They want to feel that they have something worthwhile to offer you and that you might turn to them if you ever needed comfort.

    2. Is it because you are worried that people will use your vulnerabilities against you that you do not share them?

    3. Do you look down on those who do let their guard down to you? Do you wish they were more stoic or independent or less needy?

    4. Is it more about how others will view you if you show weakness, or is it the panicky feeling you will induce in yourself by doing so?

    5. Do you like the feeling of people relying on you when they are at a low point or need help with something, or do you find it an obligation?
    1. Yes, but nobody is forcing them to feel the way they feel. Do they WANT us to turn to them if we are in need of comfort? I can't think of any circumstance where I would turn to someone that I don't know very well for comfort. It just sounds.... odd.

    2. Sure, that's part of it anyway... I think.

    3. Of course not! It's a compliment really, because it means that person trusts you. As long as they are not constantly nagging me for money or taking advantage of my kindness, then no, I don't see any reason for them to be more "stoic". (This is all VERY general by the way.)

    4. I don't panic, I always have a plan. Depending on whose presence I am in, yes, I do care to some extent how they view me. I don't really know of anyone who sees me as "weak", but then again if there is someone who does, I probably don't see them or interact with them much at all.

    5. Both. Most of the time it's that obligating feeling, but I really don't mind helping others. However, when it gets to be constant, my patience and kindness can only go so far...
    Freedom Isn't Free. [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  5. #25
    Perfect Gentleman! =D d@v3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDP2525 View Post
    Is it common for you STJ types to "ebb and flow" with people in your life? I'm trying to decide how to describe the behavior I witness...but essentially you are really all about someone's company for a few weeks, calling them and wanting to hang out (I'm not speaking about romance here but as friends) and then disappear for a month or so only to repeat said process over and over again? If this sounds familiar...why do you do this?
    I usually don't do any of the calling, people call me. However, when I do call a few times in one week wanting to hang out, and noone seems to be available, then I figure they will call me back when they ARE available to hang out. That way I'm not constantly bothering them... I HATE nagging and bothering people because I hate it when people do that to me!
    Freedom Isn't Free. [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  6. #26
    Senior Member Amira's Avatar
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    Ebb and flow in relationships? No, not really, and less than many other types.

    Originally Posted by fidelia
    Most of you have made reference to not wanting to feel vulnerable and wanting to be the strong one rather than the weak one. I have more questions then:

    1. Have you considered that others don't like the feeling of being "the weak one" all the time. They want to feel that they have something worthwhile to offer you and that you might turn to them if you ever needed comfort.
    Yeah, that is something I keep in mind.

    2. Is it because you are worried that people will use your vulnerabilities against you that you do not share them?
    Somewhat. It's also because I am so thoroughly determined to get over my weaknesses and don't want to be hampered from changing them/still have a reputation for something after I've gotten over it. Obviously I'll lot of weaknesses and vulnerabilities my whole life, but I guess I just want to minimize the risk?

    3. Do you look down on those who do let their guard down to you? Do you wish they were more stoic or independent or less needy?
    No, usually I feel honored and consider sort of a trust to keep - unless they are the teary drama person that does that to manipulate, in which case I won't be very sympathetic.

    4. Is it more about how others will view you if you show weakness, or is it the panicky feeling you will induce in yourself by doing so?
    More about me. It's just hard to let people see all my warts, even though I know it is vital for intimacy.

    5. Do you like the feeling of people relying on you when they are at a low point or need help with something, or do you find it an obligation?
    See above. If it felt like a horrible obligation I would find someone else to pass it on to, but I usually like being able to help in some way.
    Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle. ~Plato

  7. #27
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Thank you all for your responses! It's interesting to see the similarities between of your posts, but with slightly different emphasis here and there.

    d@v3 - For the first one you responded to, I wasn't suggesting you turn to people you didn't know well. I agree that it would be very weird to bleed all over the road in front of someone who isn't in your inner circle. I am talking about the people closest to you and whether or not leaning on each other in times of need is one way or reciprocal. What I mean is that although you may be considered to be strong and reliable by them, the people close to you will ultimately resent putting themselves out there if you are not willing to do so at least on occasion.

    So, what does make you feel close to someone? What behaviour would they exhibit that would bring on those feelings of closeness to them and in turn, how would you show someone that you felt close to them? Would you ever verbalize that? Do you display physical affection easily, or is it difficult? Would it be difficult to tell someone if you love them or are proud of them?

  8. #28
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I have noticed with all of you that you are very willing to be of service as this is an area that you feel competent to offer help in. It seems to me that the main reason emotional displays make you uncomfortable is that you are not sure how to react correctly. In cases where you are less likely to know what to do (eg person close to you comes to you and starts crying) would it help you if they were to tell you at some other previous time what you could do best to be of aid to them? Would that ease some of the discomfort for you? I have wondered about this, because most of the SJs I see at work want desperately to know if they are doing what is needed of them and how well they are doing it (ie are they on the right track and fulfilling their obligations). When they are told specifically what is expected of them and given feedback, they seem fairly happy to comply and fret considerably less because they feel properly prepared. Does this extend to interpersonal relationships?

  9. #29
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    What I mean is that although you may be considered to be strong and reliable by them, the people close to you will ultimately resent putting themselves out there if you are not willing to do so at least on occasion.
    Interesting. I really had never thought about this before. I put myself out there so little that... you know. I just had no idea that there was resentment like that. But it makes sense, when you think about it.
    Do you mind if I ask YOU a question, even though this thread is aimed at STJs? What sort of "putting themselves out there" are you looking for? What would satisfy that need?

    So, what does make you feel close to someone? What behaviour would they exhibit that would bring on those feelings of closeness to them...
    Well, assuming that we were friends already, they would have to understand me well, and have good chemistry with me, and most importantly, be warm and caring towards me (this doesn't have to be a showy sort of warmth; they just need to care, you know?). And I need to reciprocate those feelings.

    ...and in turn, how would you show someone that you felt close to them? Would you ever verbalize that?
    Oh, jeez. I dunno. I don't think I could verbalize it - or at least, not without trivializing it a little (e.g. saying "We're good friends now" in passing, instead of saying "You've been such a great friend to me recently, and I appreciate you and love you with all my heart"). If I could, it would be very difficult. I could write it very eloquently in a note, though.
    It's the whole making-a-big-event-out-of-it thing again. I don't want to cause a big scene. I don't want to be vulnerable.

    Do you display physical affection easily, or is it difficult?
    It's hard with someone who isn't physically affectionate. I like to know the other person's boundaries, and what's okay with them. It's hard for me to take that first step.
    But if the person is huggy, e.g, then I have no problem being physically affectionate.

    Would it be difficult to tell someone if you love them or are proud of them?
    Pride isn't as hard to express as other things. Love, though... feelings that deep are hard for me to put into words. I'm sure that I could, but it might take some time to put my thoughts together (and some time to work up the courage to express them). I might end up with a little speech in my head or something.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


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    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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  10. #30
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    EJCC - In answer to your question, I think that "putting yourself out there" maybe is the most important to NFs, although it may also be to others (I've never had a chance to ask them). If I ask for help occasionally when needed, look to someone for advice or expertise, turn to them for comfort, express some form of appreciation, accommodate their schedule or needs, or accept a favour they offer to do for me, place something in their care or trust them to run an errand etc these are all slightly vulnerable things. They mean that I trust the other person enough to not take advantage of me and I am also complimenting them by saying that they are competent, reliable and the first person I would go to, trusting that my needs will be met.

    When the other person will do none of those things in return, they are in essence saying I am the last person they would go to, that I am unreliable, untrustworthy, and incompetent to meet any of their needs (and everyone does have needs!). They also are implying that I am weak and an obligation, while they are strong and self-sufficient. They may not actually feel that way, but that is how it is perceived. This is worsened especially when criticisms and corrections are voiced more openly than feelings of love or appreciation. While each type expresses vulnerability or trust in different ways, there needs to be some sign of valuing what the other person has to offer other than bolstering up your own sense of self-confidence and competence.

    For me, I think finding an area where the person actually does trust and value my competence and then seeking help in that area (whether it is doing a favour, trusting me with a job without overseeing or advising, pursuing a skill that I have, asking for help or advice even in a small way) would all go a long ways to me believing that they trust and respect me.

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