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  1. #101
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I don't agree with throwing someone's mistakes in their face. All of us dislike that and feel defensive right away. On the other hand, I do think that if you love someone and see something they are doing that is destructive either to themselves or their relationships with others, it takes a lot more love and courage to bring it up than to let it go and leave the other person to learn the hard way or not learn at all. I would wish for someone to care enough to do that for me in return.

    An example of this might be an over-enthusiastic hockey parent who is putting enormous amounts of pressure on their child which is damaging the relationship. If their spouse (gently) attempts to make the STJ person aware of what effect their behaviour is having, is it likely to be resented (don't make me feel like a bad person because I know I'm not!) and ignored, or considered?

    You also were saying you need an example of a situation where the STJ needs to show more vulnerability than being in the role of being needed to give help or advice. An example might be if someone brings up the fact that something the STJ said that day hurt them because... Would the STJ be able to step out of the role of telling the other person what to do and see it as a problem to be solved together (this is more vulnerable, than giving advice because it implies action needed on both people's parts and therefore discussion and some kind of resolution, which may or may result in having your own way)? Or would it boil down to the STJ deciding that one or the other will need to just deal with it in some way on their own (either get over it for the one person because the STJ knows it's not a valid worry or the STJ resolves to change their behaviour - w/o further discussion)

  2. #102
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    I don't quite see what you're getting at here (or in the related posts that follow) :
    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Yes! I think that in failing to diagnose the real problem, many STJs dismiss it as being the other person's problem (or an imagined problem) and resent them for making the STJ feel bad. Would it help if the other person tried to figure out the underlying problem and present that first instead of registering the "petty" problem at all?
    But if it has something to do with this:
    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia
    I don't agree with throwing someone's mistakes in their face. All of us dislike that and feel defensive right away.
    and this:
    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia
    On the other hand, I do think that if you love someone and see something they are doing that is destructive either to themselves or their relationships with others, it takes a lot more love and courage to bring it up than to let it go...
    it seems to be going all over the place. The way you talk about it, it could be anything.

    It sounds like something that would vary widely depending upon circumstances, mood, and a lot of situation-specific factors.

  3. #103
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    From my experience, STJs are finer in an emotional situation where they still get to be the ones in charge. When it comes to working out a compromise/discussion because something they are doing is either misinterpreted or it is a problem in the relationship, I find all discussion is skipped and they again remain in charge by deciding (without input) what course of action to take.

    I'm wondering if it has to be this way or not. It seems to be consistent among the three that I know well and I'm checking if that's true across the board or only in my experience. Is there any hope for a type that is quite different to successfully make a marriage work well together. STJs have many great qualities that are complimentary to other types, but the communication issue always seems to trip things up.

    I've found and observed with others that bringing any sources of conflict up for discussion usually results in the STJ feeling attacked or else they are very dismissive, and they register very little of what they think about the whole thing. This does not work well if a solution is going to be found.

  4. #104
    Let's make this showy! raz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    From my experience, STJs are finer in an emotional situation where they still get to be the ones in charge. When it comes to working out a compromise/discussion because something they are doing is either misinterpreted or it is a problem in the relationship, I find all discussion is skipped and they again remain in charge by deciding (without input) what course of action to take.

    I'm wondering if it has to be this way or not. It seems to be consistent among the three that I know well and I'm checking if that's true across the board or only in my experience. Is there any hope for a type that is quite different to successfully make a marriage work well together. STJs have many great qualities that are complimentary to other types, but the communication issue always seems to trip things up.

    I've found and observed with others that bringing any sources of conflict up for discussion usually results in the STJ feeling attacked or else they are very dismissive, and they register very little of what they think about the whole thing. This does not work well if a solution is going to be found.
    In emotional situations, I just try to find a way out unless I think I might be scolded for being detached, and then I try to find a way to stay in, and see if there's something I could do to foster a healthy reputation while remaining detached. It's mostly because emotional situations just come off to me as a lack of focus and control, and nothing can be taken seriously anymore. That's why I try to leave until it's back under control. I just immediately look down on someone that's letting their emotions get the best of them. ><


  5. #105
    Rainy Day Woman MDP2525's Avatar
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    fidelia

    I think what you spoken about above is more geared towards ESTJ rather than ISTJ. I've never noticed that ISTJ reacts like that. (If you're calm and collected and can logically explain the reasons why they hurt your feelings - they can take that.) Only ESTJ in my experiences have trouble taking responsibility and apologizing...regardless how you approach them.
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  6. #106
    That chalkboard guy Matthew_Z's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDP2525 View Post
    fidelia

    I think what you spoken about above is more geared towards ESTJ rather than ISTJ. I've never noticed that ISTJ reacts like that. (If you're calm and collected and can logically explain the reasons why they hurt your feelings - they can take that.) Only ESTJ in my experiences have trouble taking responsibility and apologizing...regardless how you approach them.
    +1
    If a deaf INFP falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?

  7. #107
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Perhaps that's the case. I'm only going on the experiences I've had with my ISTJ dad, which is a pretty small sample group. Thanks.

  8. #108
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    It sounds like something that would vary widely depending upon circumstances, mood, and a lot of situation-specific factors.
    I actually agree. For the past page or so, there's been a lot of miscommunication, because I wasn't sure, either, what fidelia was specifically referring to.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I don't agree with throwing someone's mistakes in their face. All of us dislike that and feel defensive right away. On the other hand, I do think that if you love someone and see something they are doing that is destructive either to themselves or their relationships with others, it takes a lot more love and courage to bring it up than to let it go and leave the other person to learn the hard way or not learn at all. I would wish for someone to care enough to do that for me in return.

    An example of this might be an over-enthusiastic hockey parent who is putting enormous amounts of pressure on their child which is damaging the relationship. If their spouse (gently) attempts to make the STJ person aware of what effect their behaviour is having, is it likely to be resented (don't make me feel like a bad person because I know I'm not!) and ignored, or considered?
    What's interesting here is that it's very possible that I would see both of the actions in the first paragraph as being the same thing. Either way, I would feel hurt and attacked.
    And I still stick to what I said about blaming people for my emotional reactions (i.e. that I don't really do it). I mean, on the one hand, yes, their actions did cause me to be angry, but is that a good excuse for me to have yelled at them? The yelling was entirely my doing, and if I was better at handling my emotions, I could have held it in. That was what I was talking about there. (Hopefully it makes sense, and hopefully I'm not BSing unintentionally.)
    The bolded thing isn't really how I react. I react (in my head) a little more like: "You've insulted me! You've hurt my feelings! How DARE you!" ...not that there's a huge difference there or anything.
    You also were saying you need an example of a situation where the STJ needs to show more vulnerability than being in the role of being needed to give help or advice. An example might be if someone brings up the fact that something the STJ said that day hurt them because... Would the STJ be able to step out of the role of telling the other person what to do and see it as a problem to be solved together (this is more vulnerable, than giving advice because it implies action needed on both people's parts and therefore discussion and some kind of resolution, which may or may result in having your own way)? Or would it boil down to the STJ deciding that one or the other will need to just deal with it in some way on their own (either get over it for the one person because the STJ knows it's not a valid worry or the STJ resolves to change their behaviour - w/o further discussion)
    I think that I'd be able to problem-solve in that situation. (And if I didn't - which is definitely possible - I would revisit the topic later, in the hopes of solving my problem.) I might make some excuses for my actions, but I would apologize. After that, I might hunt down someone I trust and ask them what I can do to fix that sort of behavior.
    Deep down, STJs want to be honorable people, so if someone confronts them about less-than-honorable behavior, hopefully their embarrassment/irritation won't take precedent.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


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  9. #109
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Thanks for your help everyone!

  10. #110
    Senior Member NewEra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDP2525 View Post
    I'd say the ESTJ has a lot more trouble with introspection of their emotions than ISTJ does.
    I'll have to agree with this. The reason for this is mainly because of the introversion of ISTJ vs. extroversion of ESTJ, and also because of tertiary Fi as opposed to inferior Fi. Where I have incredible difficulty with Fe, I don't have much trouble with Fi, and looking inward.

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