[ISTJ] ISTJs and Introverted Feeling

[raz]

I'm wanting to find out what obstacles are preventing me from building more successful relationships. As I talk to other people more, almost everyone has suggested that I need to go into Fi more, and recognize my own personal individuality. I'm trying to figure out how to recognize Fi, build on it and incorporate it into my life. My problem with this is that I have put a lot of conscious effort into avoiding emotionally charged situations if possible, ignoring my own personal feelings on subjects, and deferring to logic as often as possible.

I've had a few Fi moments recently that I elaborated on in the Fe thread:

For instance, my first one was last night at work. This woman came in to buy a tie for her boss's birthday at work. He was a legislator, and she worked under him. I looked at the tie and I instantly thought to myself, "man, that is boring, and a tie is such an easy present. I hate how people take the easy way out like that." So, she asked me for my opinion of the tie, and without thinking, I started telling her:

"Well, a tie is a really easy choice. I personally don't like it. It makes it seem like you didn't want to put much effort into it. The thing about birthdays at work is that once you start looking for a gift for a birthday, you've entered the personal realm and it's no longer professional. At that point, I want a gift from a person that shows me that they appreciate the value I bring to them as a human being, rather than a coworker." I went into a little more detail, but she seemed ok about it. Si and Te kept blaring away telling me, "You have broken so many rules. You have overstepped so many boundaries. If you had the option, you should just walk away because you have gotten too personal."

Next, I started thinking about giving my own help to people. The problem with that lately, especially in the last 6 months, is that I don't like someone only forming a relationship with me to take advantage of my skills when they have the opportunity to be more personal. It feels like an attack on my worth as a person and I end up turning down requests for help because of it. It's situational, I know. 5 years ago, I would've just offered my help to anyone that asked because it made me feel useful, but suddenly Fi is telling me that people have hidden motives and they should be considered.

Last, I had an Fi blow up with my mother earlier today. It was mostly over religion that I wasn't agreeing with the family views anymore. I hadn't told them, even though I had come to the conclusion personally about 9 months ago. I just kept up with the family traditions because I felt they should be respected and my opinion didn't have enough of an effect to warrant disrupting my day to day life with my family. However, today, during a conversation with my mother, I blew up, going off on her about how I had a personal obligation to my own beliefs and that I should stand up for them. It ended semi-ok. Right before I blew up on it, I had this massive internal argument, with many sides going after each other. At one point, I couldn't take it anymore and I just told myself, "I can't think straight. I can't figure out what to feel. This is fucking insane. I'm letting it out and I don't care what they think." It was like I hit a boiling point.

It's just so confusing figuring out where Si and Te ends, and Fi begins. Through my experiences, I've taught myself that the best decision is one that takes everything into account, and comes to a conclusion objectively. I can't just go too much toward one area when making a decision because I have to take every factor into account.

As I spoke to Murkrow last night, I'm thinking that I've learned how to train the Te on myself, but in the process, I made it the center of my world and depended on it for my self-esteem, self-image and relation to others. Looking back on myself, I've been thinking about which experiences in my life have caused me to act like this. The problem is, for example, when someone helps me do something, one of my first reactions internally is, "Are they helping me to make me feel incompetent? If they didn't help me, where would I be? How much effort should I put into making sure this specific situation doesn't happen again?"

I've realized that this train of thought has occured mostly from my experiences on the internet playing computer games, interacting with other computer geeks, and focusing on competence aimed projects. I had it ingrained in my head that the proper course of action everytime is the one that is void of personal feelings and most logical. It was also ingrained in me that the only thing stopping me from being capable of doing anything is myself. In any activity, I am capable of anything, and the only thing that might be preventing me from doing better is my own personal setbacks, such as laziness or ignorance.

Another example was last night at work. This is more of an STJ executive type example. A customer came in, and while I was helping them, they started talking about another one of our stores and their experiences with that store's associates. They said those associates were mean and not very helpful. My first response internally was, "Oh crap. This places favoritism over a certain store. This is a personal opinion. How do I respond to this? I can't agree with them. I'm not allowed. If I disagree, they might think I'm just disregarding their conversation. Okay, I need to find a way to justify the other store's actions that sets a happy medium between all 3 parties." I've just assumed as part of any job, to expect that your management expects you to be objective all of the time.

The problem is mostly that I just...have a hard time coming to grips with the fact that I have personal feelings regarding situations that are relevant. I never viewed it as a necessity to delve into before so I didn't. I honestly thought to myself, "If I figure out my own feelings, will they even be that impressive compared to other people's feelings?" It's just trying to do something because it feels right is so foreign to me. It's made me more emotional recently and it makes me feel like crying to delve into.

Te has just put so much of an emphasis on not placing favoritism in a situation that involves other people. I don't know how to turn it off. Part of the problem also is learning to use Fi to turn off Te in terms of caring what other people think about me. Te moves me to be concerned if other people view me as competent. I evidently need to delve into Fi also in order to learn how to turn that concern off at times, as it's preventing me from having a personal identity. The problem with that is that I need to figure out how to tell myself that my personal identity is more important than how other people view me.

I started thinking about what relationships in the past I have had that were meaningful to me. The ones that came to mind were the ones where I had an intense connection to the other person that it allowed us to think more as one person, but act as two. That's what meant the most to me, the connection.

I'm just posting this for now to start gathering some ideas. I'll elaborate more later on with my experiences. What are other ISTJ's experiences with Fi? How you recognize your own personal identity? How do you find the difference between your Si and Te identity and your personal identity? Do you find yourself avoiding favoritism, plunging into your feelings, acknowleding them? Any advice from anyone else as to specific things I could do to try helping me utilize my feelings more?

 

[Athenian200]

I'm glad you're pursuing your personal development, raz. This reminds me of what a lot of my INTJ friends have gone though, actually.

I think you're already making progress, starting to become aware of your personal feelings. I think a good next step would be to start trying to write poetry, or some kind of journal where you write down your feelings as they happen. Just give yourself an outlet to develop them. If you're comfortable enough, you can even try to engage some of the people here (particularly NFPs) with this stuff and see where it takes you.

The first pitfall a TJ needs to be aware of, is the risk of falling too far into developing their feelings and becoming emotionally unstable. One thing I've seen a lot of them do successfully is try to train themselves to "let go" (show Fi) at certain times and in certain places, and "get serious" (stick with Te) at others.

Basically, getting a sense of how much and in what aspects of your life you really value Te, and in what kind of situations logic is more valuable than your personal feelings, and when your feelings should be considered above what Te and Si dictate. It's a matter of figuring out what you value in your life, the relative value everything holds for you, and why. This will be a life-long process, and you can't just expect to "finish" it the way you would a regular Te goal.

You want to try and uncover and see the connections between your personal values for a while in private before allowing them to have a significant say in your life (which you'll probably need to, eventually), in other words. But do make sure that you don't neglect them, either.

So you questioned the religion you grew up with? That must have been hard for you. Where did that feeling come from?

Anyway, good luck on your inner quest. I hope that you find it fulfilling in some way.

 

[Take Five]

What exactly do you mean by Si and Te identity versus personal identity? Are you talking about when and how it is ok to express emotion?

 

[raz]

So you questioned the religion you grew up with? That must have been hard for you. Where did that feeling come from?

Because after a few years post depression, I came across various experiences where people assumed my religion, people were discussing religions, people were telling me to take a "leap of faith" to abandon logic, so I figured I should put a small amount of thought into it. And then I came to the conclusion that I couldn't trust any religions anymore as it was impossible to find one that was real through practical proof.

What exactly do you mean by Si and Te identity versus personal identity? Are you talking about when and how it is ok to express emotion?

From what I'm telling, the problem lies in that the things I do, actions I take, hobbies I pursue as a result of Si and Te are different from my own personal subjective judgment calls from Fi.

Another thing I realized just earlier was, I thought at first a few years ago...."I can trust people....people just want a connection with another person, they want intimacy, the same as me...I just have to be genuine about myself and my concern about the other person, this feels good." Then my brother is an ESFP and he goes on millions of dates, does all kinds of shit with girls, gets with any girl. It made me start think, "my viewpoint was wrong...he's proven to me that people just want to fuck around and have sex and do mindless shit, I can't trust anyone anymore." That's what keeps me from letting my guard down because I instantly tell myself subconsciously, "how do I know you're not another mindless idiot that just wants to fuck around and have sex and you're not interested in an actual intimate relationship?"

 

[Take Five]

Well I wouldn't wear my heart on my sleeves, but I would be cautious with people. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with being "cold." Using Si and Te shouldn't be a negative thing unless you're overusing them and not recognizing the humanity of other people and yourself. I like knowing my "personal identity" and then using Si and Te as a way of living my personal identity while keeping my head out of the clouds.

 

[Athenian200]

Because after a few years post depression, I came across various experiences where people assumed my religion, people were discussing religions, people were telling me to take a "leap of faith" to abandon logic, so I figured I should put a small amount of thought into it. And then I came to the conclusion that I couldn't trust any religions anymore as it was impossible to find one that was real through practical proof.

Sound reasoning. My reasons were a combination of religion not being logically consistent with my internal model of reality that I've built up, and an awareness of how it's used to judge people by unfair standards (and of course the awareness that many religious ideas went against my own sense of justice and compassion).

I always wondered why SJs were supposedly more religious than other types. I've always easily been able to picture an ISTJ coming to that conclusion, and wondered why it's so rare. It looks like I was right, and it actually can happen that an S will find religion impractical and untrustworthy based on their personal experiences.

Another thing I realized just earlier was, I thought at first a few years ago...."I can trust people....people just want a connection with another person, they want intimacy, the same as me...I just have to be genuine about myself and my concern about the other person, this feels good." Then my brother is an ESFP and he goes on millions of dates, does all kinds of shit with girls, gets with any girl. It made me start think, "my viewpoint was wrong...he's proven to me that people just want to fuck around and have sex and do mindless shit, I can't trust anyone anymore." That's what keeps me from letting my guard down because I instantly tell myself subconsciously, "how do I know you're not another mindless idiot that just wants to fuck around and have sex and you're not interested in an actual intimate relationship?"

I can understand your concern here. It often does seem to me like that's all people are interested in, and it's (among other reasons) why I've never allowed myself to get close to anyone. The kids in my school actually called each other "pimps" and "whores," and for a long time I thought they were serious considering how often they made out in the halls.

The thing is, they're not all the same. There are probably more of them that just accept that messing around and doing mindless stuff, because they don't feel like they have a chance for an actual intimate relationship, and that's the best they can hope for (and they don't want to be alone). There are even some that act like they're okay with that stuff when they wouldn't actually go through with it, just so people don't call them "stuck up."

There are a few that actually prefer it, but there really aren't that many of them, honestly. So even the ones that seem that way on the surface might be better than that underneath. And there are probably quite a few people that aren't like that on the surface, and are genuine about their intentions. There might be some that are dishonest, but once you find that out, you can move on.

You can't know a person ahead of time, you have to figure them out through interaction. That's one of the most frustrating aspects of the world for us Introverts, we like being prepared, knowing how to deal with people ahead of time. Not just stumbling through interaction and dealing with things as they come.

Does that make sense? This is based on what I remember of other people's experiences, not my own. I haven't managed to trust people yet.

 

[Take Five]

Yeah I have a circle of trust that is sort of like Dante's hell. It has several levels. Only one person has ever achieved access to the final circle. Think of it like the solar system. My personal identity is the sun and each level of trust is like a planet's orbit. As one advances in levels of trust, one gets closer to my true identity. Unfortunately, as life cannot exist on Mercury because it is too hot, I am obliged to eliminate anyone who does get to the final circle of trust.

 

[Matthew_Z]

It took this ISTJ years of therapy to fully develop Fi. In my case, I ended up developing it with my family, which us ISTJs are naturally inclined to care for. Fortunately, I had a nice extended family where feels of love can be reciprocated.

Anyways, the realization that all TJs eventually come to is that our logic and perception is only a means of satisfying our feelings. Logic and reason can only suggest a course of action to take based on input. It's not enough to drive our actions. That's where emotions come in. Regardless of how irrational they are, they are the basis for all human action. Once a TJ knows what their feelings are and who they are, they're a lethal force because they can figure out how to get what they want, usually.

 

[Fidelia]

Yeah I have a circle of trust that is sort of like Dante's hell. It has several levels. Only one person has ever achieved access to the final circle. Think of it like the solar system. My personal identity is the sun and each level of trust is like a planet's orbit. As one advances in levels of trust, one gets closer to my true identity. Unfortunately, as life cannot exist on Mercury because it is too hot, I am obliged to eliminate anyone who does get to the final circle of trust.

Wow! That really seems to go with the STJs I know (my dad, as well as an(ex)boyfriend I dated five years.)

 

[Fidelia]

Raz: "The problem is, for example, when someone helps me do something, one of my first reactions internally is, "Are they helping me to make me feel incompetent? If they didn't help me, where would I be? How much effort should I put into making sure this specific situation doesn't happen again?"

"I've realized that this train of thought has occured mostly from my experiences on the internet playing computer games, interacting with other computer geeks, and focusing on competence aimed projects. I had it ingrained in my head that the proper course of action everytime is the one that is void of personal feelings and most logical. It was also ingrained in me that the only thing stopping me from being capable of doing anything is myself."

I had no idea. My ESTJ was like this to an extreme. He was willing to help out with things because he wanted to prove his competence, but did not accept help, even when it would have been greatly to his advantage. It made me feel that for one, he didn't think me competent, and also that I had nothing to offer the relationship that he cared about. I felt personally rejected and also beholden at accepting help without being able to reciprocate. What you wrote helps me understand it better.

 

[raz]

Wow! That really seems to go with the STJs I know (my dad, as well as an(ex)boyfriend I dated five years.)

That's actually a really cool analogy. I like it.

As I'm digging deeper into Introverted Feeling, I'm realizing the core of the issue, and I've elaborated on it actually often in these forums. I use Te often to compare my capability and competence to other people. In doing so, I've attached myself to my perceptions of other people's views of me. Introverted Feeling is supposed to allow me to realize my own personal identity that gives me the ability to disregard other people's opinions unless it is necessary for a Te goal.

As I explained in Ventrilo, it's more of that I realized that Si is our dominant function to constantly remind us of what's worked for us personally in the past. Te then takes the information and transforms it into goals. The problem comes when Si gives you goals to pursue that do not align with artificial goals Te has set in the present. This is where Fi comes into play giving us an identity that allows us to recognize the Si goal as more important than the current Te obligations.

As a personal example, Si tells me that I want to spend a great deal of time sitting at home reading Star Wars books or playing computer games. That's what I enjoy, and I want to do that on my own time...only. However, I've told myself that there is something wrong with me if I spend too much time at home, and not enough time out in the world, either socializing, exercising, or working. The perceived bad result is that I'll either get fat, not form meaningful relationships or become incapable of having a high income job. That's where Te has stepped in, minimized my level of personal time, and devoted the majority of my time to failed attempts at exercising and socializing along with A LOT of time spent worrying about college.

The role that introverted feeling plays I'm assuming is that it tells me that I reserve the right to look at the demands from the external world, choose the minimum requirements that I deem necessary to adhere to, and then devote my remaining time to personal interests. It also allows me to stop worrying what other people might perceive of me. It's easier said than done and requires completely changing a mindset while keeping an old mindset. It's like, shifting around a mindset that you want in order to align with the demands from the world.

I'm still working on it.

 

[Take Five]

That's actually a really cool analogy. I like it.

As I'm digging deeper into Introverted Feeling, I'm realizing the core of the issue, and I've elaborated on it actually often in these forums. I use Te often to compare my capability and competence to other people. In doing so, I've attached myself to my perceptions of other people's views of me. Introverted Feeling is supposed to allow me to realize my own personal identity that gives me the ability to disregard other people's opinions unless it is necessary for a Te goal.

As I explained in Ventrilo, it's more of that I realized that Si is our dominant function to constantly remind us of what's worked for us personally in the past. Te then takes the information and transforms it into goals. The problem comes when Si gives you goals to pursue that do not align with artificial goals Te has set in the present. This is where Fi comes into play giving us an identity that allows us to recognize the Si goal as more important than the current Te obligations.

As a personal example, Si tells me that I want to spend a great deal of time sitting at home reading Star Wars books or playing computer games. That's what I enjoy, and I want to do that on my own time...only. However, I've told myself that there is something wrong with me if I spend too much time at home, and not enough time out in the world, either socializing, exercising, or working. The perceived bad result is that I'll either get fat, not form meaningful relationships or become incapable of having a high income job. That's where Te has stepped in, minimized my level of personal time, and devoted the majority of my time to failed attempts at exercising and socializing along with A LOT of time spent worrying about college.

The role that introverted feeling plays I'm assuming is that it tells me that I reserve the right to look at the demands from the external world, choose the minimum requirements that I deem necessary to adhere to, and then devote my remaining time to personal interests. It also allows me to stop worrying what other people might perceive of me. It's easier said than done and requires completely changing a mindset while keeping an old mindset. It's like, shifting around a mindset that you want in order to align with the demands from the world.

I'm still working on it.

Have you tried making a schedule that balances these things so that there is time for what you need?
Also-I used to care a lot what people thought of me, and to some extent I still do. Embarassment was one of my biggest fears. The way I got over it? I forced myself into potentially embarassing/awkward/unpopular situations. You will get stomped on sometimes, but everybody takes a beating at one time or another. I also like to keep busy because it soaks up the time I would spend caring what people think.

 

[NewEra]

I actually use my Fi to motivate myself, and it helps me achieve the things I feel are important. It almost gives me a sense of purpose, and I sort of feed off my Fi to push myself and do successful things.

 

[Fidelia]

Is embarassment a big thing for ISTJs? What embarrasses you? Is it not looking competent, having your opinion discounted or....? That's interesting to me because INFJs are very easily embarrassed and also care about what people think of them, but I think with a slightly different focus.

 

[Matthew_Z]

Is embarassment a big thing for ISTJs? What embarrasses you? Is it not looking competent, having your opinion discounted or....? That's interesting to me because INFJs are very easily embarrassed and also care about what people think of them, but I think with a slightly different focus.

I'd say not feeling competent would be the closest thing to it. ISTJs hold themselves to high standards. When we don't make those standards, it's embarrassing. And when we miss other people's standards (which are usually lower than ours) the embarrassment multiplies exponentially.

On a side note, never, EVER, remind an ISTJ what they've done wrong. We know when we've slipped up, and we're working on it. As I mentioned previously, we have high standards. There's no need at all to be reminded of what we already know.

 

[Fidelia]

Never? What if they are not aware of how it impacts other people? What if there are options that they have not considered that might be more effective strategies?

What makes them not feel competent? Why are they so hard on themselves? Should you never mention anything negative? How can you deal with conflict?

Also what happens when you do not feel competent at something? Do you avoid that area? Try to change it?

 

[NewEra]

Is embarassment a big thing for ISTJs? What embarrasses you? Is it not looking competent, having your opinion discounted or....? That's interesting to me because INFJs are very easily embarrassed and also care about what people think of them, but I think with a slightly different focus.

I'd say not feeling competent would be the closest thing to it. ISTJs hold themselves to high standards. When we don't make those standards, it's embarrassing.

BINGO.

fidelia - Having my opinion discounted doesn't make me embarrassed, it just makes me... annoyed.

On a side note, never, EVER, remind an ISTJ what they've done wrong. We know when we've slipped up, and we're working on it. As I mentioned previously, we have high standards. There's no need at all to be reminded of what we already know.

Personally, I hate this too but I'm so used to it now in my life, I've been told what I do wrong a lot more than what I do right. It's gotten to the point now where I just tune out the stuff I did wrong.

 

[Fidelia]

Does have someone telling you what you do right carry weight for you, or only if it is coming from someone you have to answer to (eg your boss)?

Chosen One - Why does it annoy you when you have your opinion discounted? (obviously most people will feel annoyance, but I think for different reasons...)

Matthew Z - You talked about the embarrassment being multiplied exponentially when you don't meet someone else's standards (which are usually lower than your own). Would that refer more to the way a job is done (as in objective and quantifiable), or could it extend to how you handled something interpersonally etc?

 

[Matthew_Z]

In hindsight(always 20/20), I'm seeing that "never, EVER" may not have been the best choice of words. Once we get your point that we've done something we shouldn't have, we got the point. After that point, it's important to only minimally refer back to our mistake. In confrontation of any sort with an ISTJ, the focus should be on how we can improve.

The greater idea behind the "never, EVER" was about teasing an ISTJ about their mistakes. That's a no. Just. Don't. Do. It. ISTJ shortcomings should only be mentioned when trying to improve in some area.

Matthew Z - You talked about the embarrassment being multiplied exponentially when you don't meet someone else's standards (which are usually lower than your own). Would that refer more to the way a job is done (as in objective and quantifiable), or could it extend to how you handled something interpersonally etc?

As I've said before, xSTJs, unlike other types, don't mysteriously change their view of things between work and relationships. (in the broader sense of relationships, not just romantic ones) So it would refer to both, actually.

 

[raz]

Being told how to do something RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE of me trying to figure out how to do it annoying the living crap out of me. At work, I might be sitting there taking in information, categorizing it with Si, and then formulating a plan with Te, but all of this is happening in my head, and other people don't see it, so when the 30 seconds of silence happens, they jump in and give me instructions. It's fucking annoying.

I agree, embarrassment for me comes in being seen as incompetent. That's the ultimate embarrassment for me. My logic is my own, I base my life around it, so when it fails, and the public sees it, I instantly just want to hide in a corner and cry.

Having my opinion discounted alone does nothing. What matters is who discounted it and for what reasons. Did they discount my opinion purely out of emotional spite and neglect a larger issue? That becomes an issue for me.

In regards to embarrassment when I don't meet someone else's standards, it's more of that I hold myself to higher standards when handling someone else's property. That only extends to impersonal handlings. When doing something for someone else puts me into personal situations, I increase my level of objectivity greatly.