[ESTJ] Ask an ESTJ!

[Fidelia]

We are direct, the best way to communicate with us is directly, and we appreciate directness. Also, if we get mad, LEAVE US ALONE. For a while, anyways. I can be pretty touchy-feely, but if I'm really angry about something, I just HATE being touched - even if it's, e.g, a sympathetic pat.

Wish I had known that years ago instead of learning by trial and error. I'm pretty much exactly the opposite.

Things that make me feel bad about myself in some way, e.g. things that make me insecure, doubtful of my ability, remorseful, embarrassed. I find that I'm more affected by embarrassment than anyone I know - I can't just remember humiliating memories (often)! I have to relive them, no matter how unimportant they were! It's frustrating.

How does someone help you deal with this? I found that those feelings unfortunately impacted us, even though the feelings were not so much as a result of someone, but rather his own perfectionism or thoughts. Also, it's nearly impossible to fix anything in a relationship if you can't talk about it. It seemed that either I would need to stuff it down (and then feel resentful and alone) or else I'd talk about it (and he'd feel bad, then get defensive, hostile, or prickly because he did feel guilty) and I'd feel rotten too. Either way, I lost. Yes, I learned to be more straightforward, do it before there's emotion spilling out as well, give him some space - any other ideas? There seems to be a huge worry about being reproached for something in most ESTJs I've met. One, when discussing a mistake he made earlier in life said, "I REFUSE to let anyone make me feel bad about that" (hardly anyone even knew and certainly wasn't going to bother him about it).

Why is that expectation of the world being out to get you there?

 

[EJCC]

I'm not an ESTJ, but this stood out to me:

I know that this has become a frequent method of mine, using it when I'm trying to get over a girl I like, when she'd rather keep it as friends. It shows to you and to myself (two birds with one stone) that I'm trying to move on, and still value your judgment as a friend.

EJCC, do you relate to that in any extent?

I can't say I've been in this situation - I'm usually the one doing the rejecting - but I do relate to that, yeah. I could see myself doing that.

Back for another one!

Excellent.

Do ESTJs always rationalize certain feelings i.e. attraction/romantic interest?

We tend to rationalize anything that we don't fully understand. But I don't see why one would rationalize romantic interest. Feelings like that aren't rational, so why pretend that they are?
Why do you ask? Is a/the ESTJ you know acting like this?

How does someone help you deal with this? I found that those feelings unfortunately impacted us, even though the feelings were not so much as a result of someone, but rather his own thoughts perfectionism or thoughts. Also, it's nearly impossible to fix anything in a relationship if you can't talk about it. It seemed that either I would need to stuff it down (and then feel resentful and alone) or else I'd talk about it (and he'd feel bad, then get defensive, hostile, or prickly because he did feel guilty) and I'd feel rotten too. Either way, I lost.

Jeez... Well, there's only so much you can do. If trying to reassure him didn't work, and telling him that he should let it out didn't work, and you did all you could and nothing helped, then the problem is him personally. In order for that problem to have been fixed, he would have had to learn a little about introspection. I think he put up a mental block. Not all ESTJs are that difficult to work with (in this sort of situation) - I think gender may have something to do with it, as well. Female culture = "Let it all out, sweetie." Whereas, male culture = "Quit whining, and be a man."

Yes, I learned to be more straightforward, do it before there's emotion spilling out as well, give him person some space - any other ideas? There seems to be a huge worry about being reproached for something in most ESTJs I've met. One, when discussing a mistake he made earlier in life said, "I REFUSE to let anyone make me feel bad about that" (hardly anyone even knew and certainly wasn't going to bother him about it).

Why is that expectation of the world being out to get you there?

This is just proof that ESTJs need to be loved. In all seriousness, if all ESTJs are like me, they really, REALLY care about their image, i.e. how they appear to other people. They want to be liked, and appreciated. So since they're so hard on themselves, they need someone, every once and a while, to remind them that it's NO BIG DEAL. Some things that they've been beating themselves to death about for years actually don't matter that much, and in many cases, no one even remembers that but them! I think, when they open up about something like that, and/or when they make a comment like the one that you mentioned, people should remind them "I'm not going to make you feel bad about that", and reassure them. Reassurance = very much appreciated, as long as it's sincere.

 

[Fidelia]

Thank you, advice lady! This is most useful information. And I just discovered that whenever I posted that last thing, I was a very poor editor. Sorry!

Speaking of all this, despite not saying goodbye to me when we all left the town we'd been in, I got an email the other day from him. It just was quite matter-of-factly telling the news of his new surroundings and that he was settling in nicely. He signed it "as ever". Why would he bother, after four months of up and down strangeness and since we live on opposite sides of the country and don't have plans of getting back together? Do ESTJs keep their exes as friends generally? I know this hasn't been his habit in the past.

 

[EJCC]

Thank you, advice lady! This is most useful information. And I just discovered that whenever I posted that last thing, I was a very poor editor. Sorry!

It's all good. You should see some of my old posts

Speaking of all this, despite not saying goodbye to me when we all left the town we'd been in, I got an email the other day from him. It just was quite matter-of-factly telling the news of his new surroundings and that he was settling in nicely. He signed it "as ever". Why would he bother after four months of up and down strangeness and since we live on opposite sides of the country and don't have plans of getting back together? Do ESTJs keep there exes as friends generally? I know this hasn't been his habit in the past.

In all honesty, I have no idea what that's all about. Maybe he feels guilty for not saying goodbye or anything? Maybe he, like you said, wants to be friends again. From my experience, this isn't typical of ESTJs, unless the breakup was completely free of anything to be embarrassed about. I generally avoid my exes like the plague, but that's just because my relationships with them were... regrettable.

 

[Fidelia]

Yes, and that's how he's always been with exes as well. He asked me before we left if I'd be okay if he called from time to time and on another occasion that he'd send an email now and then if that was alright. I know that until he met me, there wasn't really anyone in his life he was close to like that. I also know he felt that he put in superhuman effort dealing with my need for discussing things etc and only quit because he didn't know how to deal with it anymore. He also said towards the end of his four months of incessant partying and uncharacteristically bad behaviour, "Have you ever thought that the reason I'm acting strange is not that I've changed but that I'm having a hard time since we broke up too? You're not the only one this has been hard for". He also told me I should be thankful, as the effort he has put in to maintain a friendship has been more than he's ever considered doing for anything else and if that's not good enough it's my problem. I think he really did hope that this was it and that we would be together forever. But I would have expected that because it didn't go how he hoped, he would just cut off all contact.

 

[matilda]

We tend to rationalize anything that we don't fully understand. But I don't see why one would rationalize romantic interest. Feelings like that aren't rational, so why pretend that they are?
Why do you ask? Is a/the ESTJ you know acting like this?

Yes, a friend of mine. Gets over a girl by, according to him, "looking for negatives" and rationalizing. The reason is, he says, he's not ready for a relationship at the moment.

Thanks again, EJCC.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

I'm not an ESTJ, but this stood out to me:

I know that this has become a frequent method of mine, using it when I'm trying to get over a girl I like, when she'd rather keep it as friends. It shows to you and to myself (two birds with one stone) that I'm trying to move on, and still value your judgment as a friend.

Well, I know that said ESTJ really does value me as a friend and vice versa. I'm 100% confident in that regard. It's the "feelings" part that I'm unsure of. I finally asked him if he had feelings for me other than friendship. I'll keep the thread posted when I get an answer from him. I might have to corner him in a dark alley to get the answer though.
Me: "You better answer my question and thus show some emotional vulnerability!"
ESTJ reaction ----> .......
Me: "Come back here, you!"

haha...I'm having way too much fun entertaining myself with smilies.

By the way, my mom is an ISTJ. (and my longest relationship was with an ISTJ - 4 yrs). In my experiences, ISTJ's are much more sure of their own emotions. They just don't emote or show them very much. Whereas ESTJ aren't so sure and emote either too much or not at all!

Man, what's up with me and STJ's?!

 

[Cenomite]

Would you rather I complete a project in my own way, that is totally new but could be amazing, or a way that has already been tested and shown to work?

 

[EJCC]

Yes, a friend of mine. Gets over a girl by, according to him, "looking for negatives" and rationalizing. The reason is, he says, he's not ready for a relationship at the moment.

Thanks again, EJCC.

Oh, I see. Yeah, that kind of rationalizing is VERY common with ESTJs. Sorry I didn't understand your question right away.

Me: "You better answer my question and thus show some emotional vulnerability!"
ESTJ reaction ----> .......
Me: "Come back here, you!"

Excellent. So true!

Man, what's up with me and STJ's?!

We're awesome. What can I say?

Would you rather I complete a project in my own way, that is totally new but could be amazing, or a way that has already been tested and shown to work?

Depends on whether or not I really REALLY trust you. If you have proven to me, in the past, that your unusual methods tend to be better than the usual ones, then sure, that would be fine. But most of the time, no - I'd rather that you used the tried and true method.

 

[entropie]

Why do the ESTJ girls on this board brag with me hitting on them ?

 

[EJCC]

^^ Why are YOU being so self-deprecating? *raises one eyebrow*

 

[entropie]

Because there is nothing to be proud of... obviously

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

We're awesome. What can I say?

Yeah...I'm going to give you that one. SP's and flings/fooling around....but man...STJ's for long term relationships all the way!

 

[EJCC]

^^ You INTP ladies. I wish I knew some of you irl so I could be your buddy.

Random EJCC/ESTJ factoid of the day: I don't shy away from conflict - and no one would say that about me - but I really hate it when someone is mad at me and I don't reciprocate the feeling. I'm sensitive to that sort of thing. Probably relates to how ESTJs are sensitive to criticism sometimes.

 

[Cenomite]

Ok one last question...

Shaken , stirred, or both?

 

[EJCC]

Ok one last question...

Shaken , stirred, or both?

Shaken all the way, baby.

 

[Fidelia]

So how do you react to one sided madness?

 

[EJCC]

...in what context?

 

[Fidelia]

In whatever way you were thinking of when you wrote your factoid of the day. You pick!

 

[EJCC]

Oh, MADNESS. As in, anger. Okay. I thought you meant insanity/craziness.

Well, if they're somebody that I don't have to be around (e.g. for work), then I avoid them and try not to think about them. However, if I have to be around them regularly, I diffuse the situation however I can. In one particular one-sided anger situation, I got rid of the tension by apologizing, even though I absolutely HATED the fact that I had to do that (since I had done nothing wrong - she overreacted to something very, very small). When I'm forced to work with someone who hates me, e.g. on a project, I go full-out ESTJ on them. ("Interpersonal problems? What are those? The WORK is the thing. We are doing a JOB. There is nothing else. Now, since I'm doing X, it would probably be better if you did Y...")