• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

[ESTJ] Ask an ESTJ!

Standuble

New member
Joined
Aug 23, 2011
Messages
1,149
Do you guys consider whilst decision making or stop to consider later on whether your actions in the immediate situation are undermining the bigger picture and/or any long term gains that may be achieved? I suspect my question is ultimately a permutation of Aleda's question about how you guys use Ne.
 

EJCC

The Devil of TypoC
Joined
Aug 29, 2008
Messages
19,129
MBTI Type
ESTJ
Enneagram
1w9
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
How does Ne work for you?
I actually answered that exact question just before you posted. :)
Do you guys consider whilst decision making or stop to consider later on whether your actions in the immediate situation are undermining the bigger picture and/or any long term gains that may be achieved? I suspect my question is ultimately a permutation of Aleda's question about how you guys use Ne.
I don't know about other ESTJs, but I personally am not a very good strategist. I always have the outcome in mind, when I make a decision, but I rarely think more than a few steps ahead, with a "grand plan". I see that as more Ni, and one of the advantages that an ENTJ would have over me. It's why I could never be a hardcore chess player, or Risk player.

However, regarding the bolded... that's something we definitely do. I'm not sure how I would take this apart, function-wise, but ESTJs do have a broad conception of how things currently work, and of how they should work. Backing those conceptions are broad ideals like "fairness", "efficiency", etc -- essentially our moral code and our modus operandi -- and we try, to the greatest extent that we can, to act for the good of those ideals.

For example: efficiency, in the case of a more thorough ESTJ. Let's say you give them a decision, that seems on the surface to be option A (more efficient) vs. option B (less efficient). Since the ESTJ is thorough, they will want as much info as they can get about options A and B, to see if that initial judgement is correct. As they do research, they find out that even though option A is more efficient on its own, it will hinder the rest of the process and make the whole thing less efficient, even if it, in itself, is more efficient. Then they'll choose option B.

Of course, many ESTJs are not that thorough, and sometimes they hate having to be that thorough because it means not making a quick decision. Which is why they're better deciders, than strategists, I think.
 

EJCC

The Devil of TypoC
Joined
Aug 29, 2008
Messages
19,129
MBTI Type
ESTJ
Enneagram
1w9
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
Logistics.

Strategy.
Yes! Exactly.

ENTJs create general frameworks/visions for the long term. ESTJs take those frameworks and make them practicable. Neither is as good at the opposite role.

Edit:
That's definitely interesting. What causes you guys to use Ne?
I don't know if anything causes it, in particular. I mean, I think we use it all the time, without realizing it, regardless of situation. (Si may be what stores our data, but Ne is what connects all the data together, after it's collected, so it's just as important.) But the two most obvious (and common) instances when ESTJs use a lot of Ne, are

1. when we're in a relaxed social environment and suddenly turn our silly switch on; and
2. when we get a blast of creativity.

#2 usually comes from finding a connection between things that may have seemed to be unrelated. For example, if you give an ESTJ a task, and completely the wrong supplies to do it -- and there's no way for them to get different supplies -- then after the initial reaction of "This is so stupid, why are they making me use this shit", their Ne will come out to play and suddenly they'll become impressively resourceful, using those random tools to accomplish their task, or coming up with a totally different method. Like I said about ESTJ strengths over ENTJs: that's being given a broad goal, and then making sure that it can be, and is, reached. Ne is crucial for that.
 
W

WALMART

Guest
Lightning is the hawtest FF girl to date. Her type?


What types do you find easiest to get along with?


Star Wars or Star Trek?


Redundancy: annoying, assuring, or something else entirely?
 

violet_crown

Active member
Joined
Jun 18, 2009
Messages
4,959
MBTI Type
ENTJ
Enneagram
853
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Yes! Exactly.

ENTJs create general frameworks/visions for the long term. ESTJs take those frameworks and make them practicable. Neither is as good at the opposite role.


I actually came in here to disagree with this, but the more I thought about it the more sense it made.

Go team!

I am curious now, though, about certain fine distinctions between the two types. Specifically, how do ESTJs model ideas? I'm curious about this because I frequently feel a sorta Te-dom hivemind that permits similar conclusions despite very different processes. It'd be interesting to hear ya'll's take on where exactly the two types part ways in that respect.
 

SilkRoad

Lay the coin on my tongue
Joined
May 26, 2009
Messages
3,932
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
6w5
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
I like ESTJ guys, in general, but I get the impression that they find me entertaining and "cool" but not to be taken seriously - at least not in relationship terms. (Or maybe that's just the British ESTJs. :dry: )

Jokingly serious question: if they don't take me seriously, WHY? And what could I do to change this?
 

EJCC

The Devil of TypoC
Joined
Aug 29, 2008
Messages
19,129
MBTI Type
ESTJ
Enneagram
1w9
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
Lightning is the hawtest FF girl to date. Her type?
ISTx (or INTJ) 8w9 (or 1w9) sp/sx? :shrug:

Alternate type: BAMF. :yes:
What types do you find easiest to get along with?
That one depends on the ESTJ -- and I'm curious about how [MENTION=15246]SD45T-2[/MENTION] would answer! -- but in my case, through experience, I've gotten pretty good at getting along with NFJs. I have trouble reading INTJs, and I don't think I know very many SPs. With SJs, it depends. And when I meet ExTJs, I feel like I have this incredible mind-meld with them from the get-go -- especially ENTJs.
Star Wars or Star Trek?
STAR TREK. :borg: TNG FTW.
Redundancy: annoying, assuring, or something else entirely?
Annoying, pointless, and generally a waste. For example, my university is just FULL of NJs, and they cater to NJs by trying to get everyone to form a group or start a project or initiate some other thing on campus, at some point during their college career -- which is all well and good, but now there are like three charitable groups per cause, and wouldn't it be more effective to just have one, and if you don't like how it's run, to change the system?

(This is my issue with the nonprofit sector in general, but I digress.)
I actually came in here to disagree with this, but the more I thought about it the more sense it made.

Go team!
:solidarity: :cheers:
I am curious now, though, about certain fine distinctions between the two types. Specifically, how do ESTJs model ideas? I'm curious about this because I frequently feel a sorta Te-dom hivemind that permits similar conclusions despite very different processes. It'd be interesting to hear ya'll's take on where exactly the two types part ways in that respect.
This may be a stupid question, but what do you mean by "how do (we) model ideas"?
I like ESTJ guys, in general, but I get the impression that they find me entertaining and "cool" but not to be taken seriously - at least not in relationship terms. (Or maybe that's just the British ESTJs. :dry: )

Jokingly serious question: if they don't take me seriously, WHY? And what could I do to change this?
What is it that they do, that indicates that they don't take you seriously? Is it something that happens after you start dating? Or is it friend-zoning?
 

SilkRoad

Lay the coin on my tongue
Joined
May 26, 2009
Messages
3,932
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
6w5
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
What is it that they do, that indicates that they don't take you seriously? Is it something that happens after you start dating? Or is it friend-zoning?

It's more friend-zoning. They tell me I'm fun to be around, and easy-going...we laugh a lot...etc...

I wonder if it's less an ESTJ issue rather than a more general issue I have with guys that I seem friendly, but too relaxed to be relationship-hunting. (Although if I actually do like them, they don't see how wound up internally I am about it!)

I have wondered though if ESTJs think I'm off in my own world a little too much. They enjoy talking with me about my artistic interests and so on but then they suggest that I need to be with someone more intellectual. They're so down-to-earth... Not that I'm a head-in-the-clouds type INFJ, but to an ESTJ I probably kind of seem like that anyway...

They seem to find me kind of...comforting to talk to, even if they don't pour out their hearts (though they might occasionally do that) but I think I relax them and don't stress them out. But maybe they actually want a woman who's a bit more on the crazy side. :dry:
 

EJCC

The Devil of TypoC
Joined
Aug 29, 2008
Messages
19,129
MBTI Type
ESTJ
Enneagram
1w9
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
It's more friend-zoning. They tell me I'm fun to be around, and easy-going...we laugh a lot...etc...

I wonder if it's less an ESTJ issue rather than a more general issue I have with guys that I seem friendly, but too relaxed to be relationship-hunting. (Although if I actually do like them, they don't see how wound up internally I am about it!)

I have wondered though if ESTJs think I'm off in my own world a little too much. They enjoy talking with me about my artistic interests and so on but then they suggest that I need to be with someone more intellectual. They're so down-to-earth... Not that I'm a head-in-the-clouds type INFJ, but to an ESTJ I probably kind of seem like that anyway...

They seem to find me kind of...comforting to talk to, even if they don't pour out their hearts (though they might occasionally do that) but I think I relax them and don't stress them out. But maybe they actually want a woman who's a bit more on the crazy side. :dry:
Down-to-earth people are very often drawn towards people with their heads in the clouds -- and I am one of those people! -- so I wouldn't be too quick to blame that. I do think that the bolded has to do with it, though, just because ESTJs can be pretty oblivious. I actually have a similar problem to what I might be seeing with those ESTJs, when I meet guys, i.e. I make an initial judgment of their style of interaction with me, right around the same time as I size them up, physically and personality-wise, to see if they're good boyfriend material. If I really like them, I might start flirting a little to see what they'll do, and if they miss it, then I give up. If I'm not sure, but they start flirting with me, then I'll become more interested because I know they're interested. However -- and this is the potentially relevant part! -- if they aren't flirting, then I can't really tell if they're interested, so I assume that they're not. And if they start flirting much later in the friendship, I might still be viewing things from the lens of that initial judgment/mindset-change, so I wouldn't be able to recognize the flirting for what it was, through the blinders (since I flirt platonically all the time!).

p.s. I think SD45T-2 would be much more qualified in answering this question, since he's a guy and lived in the UK for a while (? right?), so if he answers and his answer is different from mine, then defer to him!
 

violet_crown

Active member
Joined
Jun 18, 2009
Messages
4,959
MBTI Type
ENTJ
Enneagram
853
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
This may be a stupid question, but what do you mean by "how do (we) model ideas"?

It was an admittedly vague turn of phrase. Hmm. Say you were solving a problem. What is your process like? How does Si inform what ideas you take to be relevant?

I'm assuming there's overlap in how we do things because of Te, but I'm not sure how much. For instance, data collection is a big part of how I go about solving problems. I consciously avoid reinventing the wheel, so I want to be informed as possible. I'm pretty certain that an ESTJ would do the same thing, so I'm trying to figure out at what point our respective approaches to problem solving really diverge. I mean, even defining goals and outcomes is a trait that I attribute to Te. So I'm assuming that the difference has to do with how we assemble or model the information that we get.

I'm also curious how Tert Ne works for you guys.

What do you think?
 

EJCC

The Devil of TypoC
Joined
Aug 29, 2008
Messages
19,129
MBTI Type
ESTJ
Enneagram
1w9
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
It was an admittedly vague turn of phrase. Hmm. Say you were solving a problem. What is your process like? How does Si inform what ideas you take to be relevant?

I'm assuming there's overlap in how we do things because of Te, but I'm not sure how much. For instance, data collection is a big part of how I go about solving problems. I consciously avoid reinventing the wheel, so I want to be informed as possible. I'm pretty certain that an ESTJ would do the same thing, so I'm trying to figure out at what point our respective approaches to problem solving really diverge. I mean, even defining goals and outcomes is a trait that I attribute to Te. So I'm assuming that the difference has to do with how we assemble or model the information that we get.

I'm also curious how Tert Ne works for you guys.

What do you think?
Hmm. I'll think on that! That's a really good question.

My (edited) post on the previous page, on Ne, ought to be of some help, though, in the meantime:
Yes! Exactly.

ENTJs create general frameworks/visions for the long term. ESTJs take those frameworks and make them practicable. Neither is as good at the opposite role.

Edit:

That's definitely interesting. What causes you guys to use Ne?

I don't know if anything causes it, in particular. I mean, I think we use it all the time, without realizing it, regardless of situation. (Si may be what stores our data, but Ne is what connects all the data together, after it's collected, so it's just as important.) But the two most obvious (and common) instances when ESTJs use a lot of Ne, are

1. when we're in a relaxed social environment and suddenly turn our silly switch on; and
2. when we get a blast of creativity.

#2 usually comes from finding a connection between things that may have seemed to be unrelated. For example, if you give an ESTJ a task, and completely the wrong supplies to do it -- and there's no way for them to get different supplies -- then after the initial reaction of "This is so stupid, why are they making me use this shit", their Ne will come out to play and suddenly they'll become impressively resourceful, using those random tools to accomplish their task, or coming up with a totally different method. Like I said about ESTJ strengths over ENTJs: that's being given a broad goal, and then making sure that it can be, and is, reached. Ne is crucial for that.
 

SilkRoad

Lay the coin on my tongue
Joined
May 26, 2009
Messages
3,932
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
6w5
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
p.s. I think SD45T-2 would be much more qualified in answering this question, since he's a guy and lived in the UK for a while (? right?), so if he answers and his answer is different from mine, then defer to him!

I have to run in a few minutes so I'll get back to the rest of what you said later! :)

But yeah, in the meantime if we can call [MENTION=15246]SD45T-2[/MENTION] in for some insight that would be good! Although I think he's only fascinated by the UK and hasn't lived here. :D
 
W

WALMART

Guest
Neat answers. Star Trek sucks, though. Just an fyi.


What is your preferred work environment?
 

SilkRoad

Lay the coin on my tongue
Joined
May 26, 2009
Messages
3,932
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
6w5
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Down-to-earth people are very often drawn towards people with their heads in the clouds -- and I am one of those people! -- so I wouldn't be too quick to blame that. I do think that the bolded has to do with it, though, just because ESTJs can be pretty oblivious. I actually have a similar problem to what I might be seeing with those ESTJs, when I meet guys, i.e. I make an initial judgment of their style of interaction with me, right around the same time as I size them up, physically and personality-wise, to see if they're good boyfriend material. If I really like them, I might start flirting a little to see what they'll do, and if they miss it, then I give up. If I'm not sure, but they start flirting with me, then I'll become more interested because I know they're interested. However -- and this is the potentially relevant part! -- if they aren't flirting, then I can't really tell if they're interested, so I assume that they're not. And if they start flirting much later in the friendship, I might still be viewing things from the lens of that initial judgment/mindset-change, so I wouldn't be able to recognize the flirting for what it was, through the blinders (since I flirt platonically all the time!).

p.s. I think SD45T-2 would be much more qualified in answering this question, since he's a guy and lived in the UK for a while (? right?), so if he answers and his answer is different from mine, then defer to him!

What's the best way to make an oblivious ESTJ notice that you like them? Just for future reference ;)

One of my problems in general is not always being sure when people are flirting with intent. I know it's good advice that if they flirt with everyone, and flirt similarly with you, it's a good indication that this is just their style. But I've been singled out (or so it seemed) and yet still told (directly or indirectly) in the end that they weren't interested... Which might be a case of someone getting cold feet. I think extroverts are generally more likely to have a somewhat flirtatious vibe so this may confuse me sometimes. I relate to a lot of what you said above. Sometimes it's just bad timing. A lot of women say they know right away when they're interested, but with me it's more often when I know them quite well as a friend. But at that stage, either the guy may think I've friend-zoned him already, or he may have friend-zoned me already. :dry:

Is it safe to say that an ESTJ guy would probably be quite forceful and straightforward about it if he was really seriously interested?
 

SD45T-2

Senior Jr.
Joined
Feb 18, 2012
Messages
4,229
MBTI Type
ESTJ
Enneagram
1w2
Instinctual Variant
so/sp
That one depends on the ESTJ -- and I'm curious about how [MENTION=15246]SD45T-2[/MENTION] would answer!
My best friend is an ISTJ, another one of my good friends is an ESTP, and I think a few others are ISTPs.

I have to run in a few minutes so I'll get back to the rest of what you said later! :)

But yeah, in the meantime if we can call [MENTION=15246]SD45T-2[/MENTION] in for some insight that would be good! Although I think he's only fascinated by the UK and hasn't lived here. :D
I've never been to a foreign country. Hopefully one of these days I can at least visit Canada. :D I'd prefer to visit Canada over Mexico becase I don't speak Spanish and it seems much less likely that a drug cartel would kidnap me/shoot me/chop my head off. I'm kinda fussy about that stuff. ;)

I don't think I have any great relationship insight. :( I'm not sure I even know any female INFJs IRL. :shrug:
 

SilkRoad

Lay the coin on my tongue
Joined
May 26, 2009
Messages
3,932
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
6w5
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
I don't think I have any great relationship insight. :( I'm not sure I even know any female INFJs IRL. :shrug:

As a male ESTJ, what would you do if you liked a female? :D

And, what might make you consider someone/not consider someone romantically?

(If I'm making you uncomfortable, just say so. ;) )
 
Top