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[ESTJ] Ask an ESTJ!

The Great One

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Yeah, exactly. ESTJs are all about objective facts, so they probably won't trust your analysis unless you convince them of the facts first.

Personally. I like facts as well, but it's like I analyze facts and then pick out what I want to come to the conclusion of what I see as "The Truth". I guess I will adapt for the TJ types.
 

EJCC

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Personally. I like facts as well, but it's like I analyze facts and then pick out what I want to come to the conclusion of what I see as "The Truth".
Well, I wasn't saying you/other types aren't fans of facts. I'm just coming from an Si standpoint, I suppose. :shrug:
I guess I will adapt for the TJ types.
Cool! Glad I could help :)
 

The Great One

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Well, I wasn't saying you/other types aren't fans of facts. I'm just coming from an Si standpoint, I suppose. :shrug:

Cool! Glad I could help :)

Yep. I guess the other part I'm going to have to do, is just make a compelling argument right then and there. It seems like with Te doms, they look at the facts and then make a decision. Then, once that decision is made, it is final! That decision is air tight, and there is no constant reevaluation like a Ti user for instance.
 

skylights

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Yep. I guess the other part I'm going to have to do, is just make a compelling argument right then and there. It seems like with Te doms, they look at the facts and then make a decision. Then, once that decision is made, it is final! That decision is air tight, and there is no constant reevaluation like a Ti user for instance.

I think it's less about airtight and more about efficiency of action. Ti is very precise, but SLOW AS MOLASSES.
 

EJCC

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Yep. I guess the other part I'm going to have to do, is just make a compelling argument right then and there. It seems like with Te doms, they look at the facts and then make a decision. Then, once that decision is made, it is final! That decision is air tight, and there is no constant reevaluation like a Ti user for instance.
It's final, and there's no constant reevaluation -- you're right about that -- but it doesn't have to be airtight. Obviously if the ESTJ messed up, and if it's possible to take back the messed up decision and try again, and it's a big freaking deal, the ESTJ will do it. But like skylights said...
I think it's less about airtight and more about efficiency of action. Ti is very precise, but SLOW AS MOLASSES.
:laugh: True that! I'm pretty sure the official Ti motto is "No Detail Is Unnecessary".
 

Red Herring

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:laugh: True that! I'm pretty sure the official Ti motto is "No Detail Is Unnecessary".

What's so funny about that? Are you saying there are also unnecessary details? :shock:
 

The Great One

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I think it's less about airtight and more about efficiency of action. Ti is very precise, but SLOW AS MOLASSES.

I wouldn't say it's slow. I would say that actually using Ti is fast, but it is slow in the regard that it keeps evaluating, and re-evaluating which can really annoy the hell out of Te users. For instance, my old ESTJ manager used to hate to go out to dinner with me. I would analyze the hell out of the menu and try to get the best, and most satisfying meal. I would constantly evaluate and re-evaluate and he eventually would grab my menu, give it back to the waitress. Then he'd look at the options that I was considering pick one and random and say, "He'll have this one". I hated going to dinner with him. Of course, I didn't really care that he did this because he would always pay for my meal.

It's final, and there's no constant reevaluation -- you're right about that -- but it doesn't have to be airtight. Obviously if the ESTJ messed up, and if it's possible to take back the messed up decision and try again, and it's a big freaking deal, the ESTJ will do it. But like skylights said...

:laugh: True that! I'm pretty sure the official Ti motto is "No Detail Is Unnecessary".

It just bothers me that your decisions are just so final, lol. It's like, how do make decisions that fast? Don't you need time to re-evaluate in case you made a poor decision?
 

EJCC

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What's so funny about that? Are you saying there are also unnecessary details? :shock:
I will use this as my rebuttal:

shopping_teams.png

I wouldn't say it's slow. I would say that actually using Ti is fast, but it is slow in the regard that it keeps evaluating, and re-evaluating which can really annoy the hell out of Te users. For instance, my old ESTJ manager used to hate to go out to dinner with me. I would analyze the hell out of the menu and try to get the best, and most satisfying meal. I would constantly evaluate and re-evaluate and he eventually would grab my menu, give it back to the waitress. Then he'd look at the options that I was considering pick one and random and say, "He'll have this one". I hated going to dinner with him. Of course, I didn't really care that he did this because he would always pay for my meal.
:laugh: Typical ESTJ manager.

Out of curiosity... is each subsequent re-evaluation from the same perspective, and/or regarding the same factors? What would be an example of that thought process? I'm like skylights in that I thought it was just one big evaluation process, not a bunch of little short processes in a row.
It just bothers me that your decisions are just so final, lol. It's like, how do make decisions that fast? Don't you need time to re-evaluate in case you made a poor decision?
No, we make sure the decision isn't going to be poor, BEFORE we make it. ;) That's why we have a reputation for being cautious. But why worry, when there's no turning back? If you can't do anything about it, it's not something you should be thinking about. It's unproductive.
 

Fluffywolf

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Although I would like to say I complete you, I should say you complete me. What are the chances you are single and live right next door? *inquisitiveface*
 

skylights

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I wouldn't say it's slow. I would say that actually using Ti is fast, but it is slow in the regard that it keeps evaluating, and re-evaluating which can really annoy the hell out of Te users. For instance, my old ESTJ manager used to hate to go out to dinner with me. I would analyze the hell out of the menu and try to get the best, and most satisfying meal. I would constantly evaluate and re-evaluate and he eventually would grab my menu, give it back to the waitress. Then he'd look at the options that I was considering pick one and random and say, "He'll have this one". I hated going to dinner with him. Of course, I didn't really care that he did this because he would always pay for my meal.

It's just slow for those of us who have to wait for you! ;)

I understand in the sense that Fi works the same way for me. It's very deliberate and it's very important to get as close to the ideal as possible. But because of all that refinement, it makes taking external action based on it a long process. My INTP dad is king of slow external action time. It took him 6 years to buy a car because he wanted to choose the absolute best one. And he did - 11 years later it's been his pride and joy and is still immaculate. But still, SIX YEARS.

Even for me with tert Te I'm like let's do some quick calculations, make an informed decision, and run with it. The Ti deliberation to me feels like it's computing too many variables that are highly unlikely to ever actually have a major impact on the final result. I can only imagine how it feels for an ESTJ!
 

The Great One

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[MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION]

I will give you an example of my ENTP thought process for you tomorrow. I may even post a video. Also, I don't ever see a problem as "something I can't do anything about". I think that there is a solution to each and every problem. Each time someone says, "Well, there's nothing you can do about it." I just laugh in their face and say, "Oh I'll figure out how to do something about it."

[MENTION=10496]skylights[/MENTION]

Yeah you raise a valid point. In some ways I almost thing it's more about finding the perfect solution to a problem and fully understanding the problem with Ti, rather than actually solving the problem. I know that sounds crazy, but it's just Ti.
 

RaptorWizard

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Why are ESTJs usually such powerful people in lofty positions of authority? I am jealous, so my contempt for authority will make me an authority!
 

skylights

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[MENTION=10496]skylights[/MENTION]

Yeah you raise a valid point. In some ways I almost thing it's more about finding the perfect solution to a problem and fully understanding the problem with Ti, rather than actually solving the problem. I know that sounds crazy, but it's just Ti.

Nope, totally makes sense. Same exact thing with Fi. It's understanding and the ideal that's most important, because proper implementation can't take place until those things are fully achieved.
 

EJCC

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Why are ESTJs usually such powerful people in lofty positions of authority? I am jealous, so my contempt for authority will make me an authority!
It's probably because ESTJs are well suited to rising up the job ladder (for lack of a better phrase). They're cautious unless they know exactly what they have to do (which makes them appear humble), but when they know what to do, they are authoritative and exude such certainty that everyone in the office trusts them. They do their work thoroughly, and they are dedicated to their work. They have an instinctive understanding of hierarchy and therefore are not prone towards overstepping their bounds. And, most importantly, they always go the extra mile to report their concerns to a higher authority, and much of the time it's obvious that they aren't doing it just to get ahead, but are instead doing it because they genuinely care about things getting done right.
 

Fluffywolf

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Nip nip nip.

Nip! Nipnipnipnipnipnipnipnipnipnipnip
nipnipnipnipnipnipnipnipnipnipnipnip
nipnipnipnipnipnipnipnipnipnipnipnip
nipnipnipnipnipnipnipnipnipnipnipnip!

How long would you last?
 

Red Herring

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Yeah you raise a valid point. In some ways I almost thing it's more about finding the perfect solution to a problem and fully understanding the problem with Ti, rather than actually solving the problem. I know that sounds crazy, but it's just Ti.

Completely agree. The real world is overrated :D

Do you know the one about the mathematician who wakes up at night and sees his bedroom is on fire, looks around, sees there is a fire extinguisher in the corner and turns around to sleep some more because the problem has an unambiguous solution?
 

Fluffywolf

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Like the one about the blind carpenter. Doesn't hit a thing.

edit: oh damn, just realized that joke only works in dutch. In dutch "doesn't hit a thing" means "slaat nergens op" which in turn also means "Doesn't make any sense.". :dry:
 

Tamske

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Re: Ti vs Te...
A while ago, my husband and I watched this Ted talk: http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/dan_gilbert_asks_why_are_we_happy.html We also have an ongoing discussion about that. He's convinced I'm making myself miserable by not being contented with what I have. In the words of the talk, I'm not using that artificial happiness thingy (enough). According to him, I'm forgetting to enjoy myself while telling myself "If only I had this, if only I could do that"

But I'm terribly afraid I would miss a chance if I got too used to my situation. I'm afraid that, by being contented, I would not work as hard to make things better.
I'm happy if I can improve the world, even by a little bit. So I'm constantly, like The Great One describes, evaluating all things and see if I can improve anything - be it the next meal, be it my working routine, be it my teaching. I'm constantly finding things to improve. And that doesn't make me unhappy. What makes me unhappy is the fact that I have to spend nearly all my time and energy maintaining the status quo. So I'm struggling the whole day to get the house, the yard, the school work ready... and then I'm exhausted and I didn't even make some pancakes to improve the day. I'm not happy with any status quo - even if the status quo would have me as a novel writer as famous and rich as J.K. Rowling. Then my next book will need to be better yet.

Husband - and I guess more Te/Si users - are happy if they did well, are happy to spend the evening relaxing, they make their decisions and don't look back, confident that they have made the best one, or at least, that trying to change it now will be more trouble than it is worth. So it's useless to look back. I do that all the time, telling myself to do better next time.
 

SD45T-2

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Completely agree. The real world is overrated :D

Do you know the one about the mathematician who wakes up at night and sees his bedroom is on fire, looks around, sees there is a fire extinguisher in the corner and turns around to sleep some more because the problem has an unambiguous solution?
I heard a joke like that, but there was more to it. I think it was an engineer, a mathematician, and a physicist, or something like that. The punchline still boiled down the the mathematician being satisfied with knowing that he figured out the solution and not bothering to actually do anything with it.
 

Red Herring

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I heard a joke like that, but there was more to it. I think it was an engineer, a mathematician, and a physicist, or something like that. The punchline still boiled down the the mathematician being satisfied with knowing that he figured out the solution and not bothering to actually do anything with it.

Oh, there are hundreds of those (do you know the one where they lock an engineer,a physicist and a mathematician (a topologist) into a room with a can of food and no can opener?)

And there are many about Ti nitpicking as well:

An engineer, a physicist and a mathematician are riding on a train through Scotland. Suddenly they see a black sheep throuh the window
Enineer: Oh, so Scottish sheep are black! Cool!
Physicist: No, actually, we only know that there is at least one black sheep in Scotland!
Mathematician: Well, actually, we only know that there is at least one sheep that is black on at least one side!

:D
 
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