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[ESTJ] Ask an ESTJ!

ChocolateMoose123

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Fi: I go to the store, I see that they don't have a CD that I like. That annoys me, not just because I had wanted to buy it, but because I feel like the store ought to have that CD in stock because it's so good. So I go to the desk and ask them to order several copies, not just one, so that way there'll be an extra one for whoever else stops by. My Fi is then satisfied, because I did a good deed. (There’s lots of Te in here too, but I have a hard time separating my Te from my Fi, when I talk about it.

LOL. This reminds me of when my ESTJ got sick and had to go to a walk-in clinic. Well, he was irritable already. (big baby when he's sick! He wanted me to drive him to the doctor :rolleyes:) and we went in. Waited for about an hour and a half. When I met him after he was pissed. He didn't feel he should have waited so long. He told me that while he was back in the office he asked the nurse why the wait was so long and he made a sarcastic comment to the doctor when asked about his symptoms.
He then posted a FB update about how no one should use that particular walk-in clinic when he got home.

From my perspective, I expect to wait at walk-ins. To his benefit, the staff did seem a bit unorganized with time management but it was something that wouldn't bother me at all but that got his Fi going.
 

Tamske

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I think your Fi is doing the big motivation things, while Te goes around with the day to day practical things. Fi decides what you want, Te decides on how to get it. Because you're a Te-dom, I expect you to be more at ease with (talking about) practical problems and tasks rather than about the meaning of life. Does that sound about right?
 

ICUP

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Not sure. It could be any number of things, based on your information. Can you elaborate? Can you give an example of an exchange you've had with him?

I just now found this. :hi:

Anyways, I figured it all out. He is a really awkward sp/so. He's also very traditional and Catholic, and constantly trying to "prove" his masculinity. He also is district manager of what else? A tire store. While I find it all annoying, he's not a bad person. We're just VERY different lol..... and I met his comment with distaste.
 

RicPTmc

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Hi guys... a question that i already placed in the chat... but would like to hear some more about it if you will


How fond are ESTJ's of responsibility "and" self-responsibility?

Please give examples of how you see you deal with responsibility and what moves you to be it that way.

Thanks
 

EJCC

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Okay, what happened here was that I wrote a huge reply to Little Linguist, which my computer promptly deleted for no good reason, which annoyed me to the point that I avoided the thread for a long time after... :( So I apologize.

Here's a reply, for realz this time:
In my classes, I try to emphasize people 'discovering things' for themselves, and I'm there to give a 'helping hand' when necessary. Let me give you a concrete example:

I have a class where I'm doing Office Skills. Since this is a very practical class, I have to present it in a practical way, really. So I think we can't just talk about stuff; we have to do something constructive. So I often have classes with the theory and homework with the practice. That of course means that I have a crap-load of work because I have to correct a lot of stuff, but I find this really gives the best of both worlds. Sometimes in class, we have telephoning role plays or filling out forms together, things like that. We also have a lot of discussions and partner/group work to spice things up a bit. I try not to have the same ol' routine every time.

One criticism that I get - and that's why I'm writing you because I think that it's an SJ problem that you could provide some good insight on - is that I'm not 'clear' or 'structured' enough. Now I *think* I'm really structured, except on off-days when I am kind of not having a too-good grasp on my Te, but they obviously don't. So I'm wondering: what do you expect in terms of structure. See, I'm a bit worried about spelling everything out before we even start, because I'd think that'd take the fun out of discovering it on your own. :D Besides, I don't want to make people feel like it's a kindergarten class by telling them everything step by step when it's college.

But maybe I've been going about it the wrong way, so I'd appreciate any feedback you'd be willing to give.
If I were your student, I would really like you :) Everything you've said has sounded like your class would be really fun and your students would learn a lot. My only concern is the bolded; if you said that on the first day of class, when talking about your expectations etc, I would immediately start worrying that I wouldn't figure everything out. What if I got left behind? What if I totally missed the point of the class?? What if my grades sucked and I had no idea how to fix them, and the professor (i.e. you) told me to figure it out on my own?

Of course, that entire concern would be moot if I were naturally good at the topic. But if I wasn't, and if I struggled with the concepts, that would be where I'd start to worry. Also: you seem like the sort of professor who would make yourself very available for questions whenever needed, and would help people if they were having trouble, and that's really what matters most. :yes:
(big baby when he's sick! He wanted me to drive him to the doctor :rolleyes:)
'Cuz he's a man.
[YOUTUBE="VbmbMSrsZVQ"]Man Cold[/YOUTUBE]
"For god's sake, woman! He's a man! He's got a man cold!" :laugh:
From my perspective, I expect to wait at walk-ins. To his benefit, the staff did seem a bit unorganized with time management but it was something that wouldn't bother me at all but that got his Fi going.
I wonder if he'd been to a walk-in clinic before that didn't have as long a wait? I mean, I figure that there must have been some kind of precedent that he was expecting it to follow. Of course, the man cold had something to do with it too :laugh: But still.
I think your Fi is doing the big motivation things, while Te goes around with the day to day practical things. Fi decides what you want, Te decides on how to get it. Because you're a Te-dom, I expect you to be more at ease with (talking about) practical problems and tasks rather than about the meaning of life. Does that sound about right?
:yes: It definitely sounds right. And the bolded is exactly why I have such a hard time separating a Te example from an Fi example.

I just now found this. :hi:

Anyways, I figured it all out. He is a really awkward sp/so. He's also very traditional and Catholic, and constantly trying to "prove" his masculinity. He also is district manager of what else? A tire store. While I find it all annoying, he's not a bad person. We're just VERY different lol..... and I met his comment with distaste.
Ah, yes, that makes sense. :yes: Glad it got figured out! :)
Hi guys... a question that i already placed in the chat... but would like to hear some more about it if you will


How fond are ESTJ's of responsibility "and" self-responsibility?

Please give examples of how you see you deal with responsibility and what moves you to be it that way.

Thanks
Well, I don't know if we're "fond" of it... I don't know about other ESTJs, but I can resent my responsibilities and feel trapped by them as much as anyone. But the thing about ESTJs (and ISTJs, too), is that we recognize that there are things that we HAVE to do. Those things could be based on precedent (Si) or values (Fi), but either way, we use our Te to make sure they get done.

Example: My grandmother died a couple of months ago. I was away at school and far from home. I called my mom and told her that if she needed me at the funeral, I would buy a plane ticket and skip school so I could go. I made this offer because I thought it was my responsibility as a daughter and as a granddaughter to do that (Fi), and also because I figured that based on other people I knew whose grandparents had died, it was what grandchildren were supposed to do (Si). But my mom talked me out of it, with a lot of reassurance and almost telling me that she didn't want me there, because she wanted me to be in school.

EDIT: I'm also not sure what you mean by "self-responsibility"?
 

Kierva

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This probably has been asked but I'll just ask it because of my own laziness to scroll through hundred over pages.

How would you differ from an ENTJ with a Te + Se loop. How would a Te + Ne loop look for you? State examples. Also, how does Te + Si work for you guys?
 

EJCC

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This probably has been asked but I'll just ask it because of my own laziness to scroll through hundred over pages.
:yes: Understandable.
How would you differ from an ENTJ with a Te + Se loop. How would a Te + Ne loop look for you? State examples.
Not sure what the bolded would look like, but I can direct you to the exact post when I described Te/Ne loops: right here.
Also, how does Te + Si work for you guys?
I actually explained it in the post right above yours :) But let me know if you need more detail; I was pretty general and vague there.
 

Kierva

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LOL that's a pretty hilarious scenario you have there. We ENTJs need something of the sort for Te + Se.

But I doubt it could be as funny as Ne is because from my understanding Te wants to control the situation and impose goals on whatever the situation demands and that Se would be using physical force so that it will meet Te's agenda.

Edit: Hrm so Si acts as a reinforcement to Te such it keeps on track?
 

EJCC

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LOL that's a pretty hilarious scenario you have there. We ENTJs need something of the sort for Te + Se.

But I doubt it could be as funny as Ne is because from my understanding Te wants to control the situation and impose goals on whatever the situation demands and that Se would be using physical force so that it will meet Te's agenda.
It is pretty funny. :laugh: But to be fair, Ne can be very helpful. Pretty much all of my creativity and my global thinking can be attributed to Ne. It keeps me from being caught up in details. Helps me find patterns. In all my time on this forum, I think I can safely say that the majority of unhealthy ESTJs -- at least, the majority of unhealthy ESTJs that people complain about here -- are unhealthy in large part because of not enough Ne. They get closed-minded and inflexible. Healthy ESTJs have more Ne. :yes:

But what does a Te-Se loop look like? :huh: I'm curious now.
Edit: Hrm so Si acts as a reinforcement to Te such it keeps on track?
In a sense. :yes: You know how ESTJs always want to fix things? Well, the only way to know if something is broken is to know what it would look like if it weren't broken, and Si keeps all that data and makes it easy to access.
 

Kierva

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Well I'm no expert on this topic but I can say Te + Se is murder.

Like I said Te wants to control and "keep track on the goals" and Se uses physical means to meet Te's agenda, be it with force or obsessive attention to detail.

This is a very brief and vague outline so other ENTJs looking at this thread feel free to correct me and it's how it works for me (in class).

Te - By the end of today, I want an A grade.
Se - Says to group: That group needs to die. *bulldozer face*
Ni - Gee don't you think you're being too aggressive there?
Te - whatever, I don't care what happens I want that A grade.
Se - and I'm just doing the favor. *goes to micromanage group*
Te - *looks over at group member's work* This is not up to standard.
Se - *overreacts to seemingly minor detail* NO NO NO THIS IS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE HERE!!! IT SHOULD BE IN THE NEXT SLIDE!!

And the cycle continues until:

Te - @_@ FUCK INFORMATION OVERLOAD CANNOT THINK SO MANY DETAILS. CLUSTER FUCK *ALARM*
Se - well it had to be done for the good grade
Ni - I told you to step back.
Fi - ah damn I don't think with a presentation as messy as this I can get my A grade *goes to sulk*
 

RicPTmc

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EJCC.. what you said "helped" :)
btw... Did anyone ever said that you could be "a bit" ESFJ? Because...
Looking at you profile all "fluffy" and... the extent of your "assistance" post, meaning ... "you helped" definitively ...!! lol

Thanks
 

EJCC

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Well I'm no expert on this topic but I can say Te + Se is murder.

Like I said Te wants to control and "keep track on the goals" and Se uses physical means to meet Te's agenda, be it with force or obsessive attention to detail.

This is a very brief and vague outline so other ENTJs looking at this thread feel free to correct me and it's how it works for me (in class).

Te - By the end of today, I want an A grade.
Se - Says to group: That group needs to die. *bulldozer face*
Ni - Gee don't you think you're being too aggressive there?
Te - whatever, I don't care what happens I want that A grade.
Se - and I'm just doing the favor. *goes to micromanage group*
Te - *looks over at group member's work* This is not up to standard.
Se - *overreacts to seemingly minor detail* NO NO NO THIS IS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE HERE!!! IT SHOULD BE IN THE NEXT SLIDE!!

And the cycle continues until:

Te - @_@ FUCK INFORMATION OVERLOAD CANNOT THINK SO MANY DETAILS. CLUSTER FUCK *ALARM*
Se - well it had to be done for the good grade
Ni - I told you to step back.
Fi - ah damn I don't think with a presentation as messy as this I can get my A grade *goes to sulk*
Ohhhhh jeez. :laugh: I guess I didn't associate Se with aggression, before now. What causes that, do you think?

EJCC.. what you said "helped" :)
btw... Did anyone ever said that you could be "a bit" ESFJ? Because...
Looking at you profile all "fluffy" and... the extent of your "assistance" post, meaning ... "you helped" definitively ...!! lol

Thanks
Well, I'm glad that it did help! :laugh: And speaking of which, no, I am not ESFJ. I really have so much Te that it's crazy. Check out my videos if you want, on the video thread; you'll see what I mean.

What you're seeing, I think, is that I'm 1w2, and not that I'm an Fe-dom -- which explains the fact that I really want to be helpful. Honestly, my Fe sucks, and anything I have that resembles Fe on this thread is due to this function dialogue:

Si: That person needs/wants advice on something, and you know a lot about it. You could give good advice if you wanted.
Fi: Therefore, it's your duty/job to advise them.
Te: Okay then, I'll do it!

Also, Fe types have a certain instinct, in strange social situations, that allows for them to know exactly what to do, even if they haven't experienced similar things before. And boy do I NOT have that! :doh:

EDIT: Also, a certain amount of Te is filtered out of my posts by the fact that I proofread before I post -- much more than I think before I speak. :laugh:
 

Kierva

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I think it's the in-charge style of ENTJs and combine that with Te and Se you get a very aggressive type, though I think enneagram also probably has something to do with this. These kind of situation usually happens with type 8s, I don't know about ENTJ 3s though
 

mrcockburn

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I think it's the in-charge style of ENTJs and combine that with Te and Se you get a very aggressive type, though I think enneagram also probably has something to do with this. These kind of situation usually happens with type 8s, I don't know about ENTJ 3s though

Of course, it depends on the class. I hate the ones where group members evaluate each other - because then you have to be nice to the incompetents and slackers, otherwise they'll get revenge on you during evaluation (either make you out to be a tyrannical monster or totally make up lies together and pin YOU as a slacker).

I'm either ESTP or ENTJ, but regardless, I'm 3w4. Last project, I worked with an incompetent ESTP and a slacking ESFP. My attitude was that aggression was a really bad idea. So, I dredged up every last speck of Fe in me and "encouraged" them while giving them the boring secretarial type tasks. Worked out for me, actually. I got to man the strategy and the creative part, they took care of the details stuff.

ESTJs....how would you have dealt with group slackers? And assume you could NOT go to the professor, because she despised you as it was...
 

Kierva

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Of course, it depends on the class. I hate the ones where group members evaluate each other - because then you have to be nice to the incompetents and slackers, otherwise they'll get revenge on you during evaluation (either make you out to be a tyrannical monster or totally make up lies together and pin YOU as a slacker).

I'm either ESTP or ENTJ, but regardless, I'm 3w4. Last project, I worked with an incompetent ESTP and a slacking ESFP. My attitude was that aggression was a really bad idea. So, I dredged up every last speck of Fe in me and "encouraged" them while giving them the boring secretarial type tasks. Worked out for me, actually. I got to man the strategy and the creative part, they took care of the details stuff.

ESTJs....how would you have dealt with group slackers? And assume you could NOT go to the professor, because she despised you as it was...

We have that system in my college too. Not that I care for people's evaluations or whatever because I know I'll be rated good because my contributions are of standard. But when it comes to these kind of slackers I usually tell them to do the powerpoint slides. The content will be done by me and other contributing group members.

That's if they even show up. But that being said I'd rather manage a small group of people who are on the same wave as I am when it comes to work ethic than to work a bunch of slackers AND the people with work ethic.
 

sui generis

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:hi: I'm a jerk for not participating in this thread more often. Actually I've just been pretty busy with school. I'm on break now though and found this question intriguing:

I have a question:

Do you think type has an effect on the way you learn, and if so, how do you learn best? In other words, what do you hope for in a teacher/instructor/professor, and what kind of methods do you like in class? Thanks in advance. :)

I'm one of the few people who actually enjoys and learns from old-school, typical lecture-type courses-- but I learn best if I can ask tons of questions and interact with the questions with a teacher. I learn best when I'm asking lots of questions and when I'm taking notes. When it's a practical, hands-on kind of thing, I'd like to see someone else do it first, then do it myself with guidance and the ability to ask questions. I appreciate a teacher who challenges me and is patient with all my questions. :laugh:

Things I don't like: GROUP PROJECTS (I seem to always get stuck with people who are stupid and/or lazy) and activities that are supposed to ~make learning fun~. (I can't think of an example right now, but this stuff bugged me when I was younger.)

I don't know how much of this is type related and how much of it is individual idiosyncrasy. :shrug:
 
G

Ginkgo

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ESTJs....how would you have dealt with group slackers? And assume you could NOT go to the professor, because she despised you as it was...

You remind them at least 10 times a day, via text, mobile, or twatter with a point by point readout of what their tasks. Everytime they don't respond, send a complementary message about how they didn't respond, because if they didn't respond they are probably unaware you were trying to reach them. Make sure their message machine audio file features their name and phone number, and if it doesn't, send another message to remind them of this fact.
 

Tamske

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Things I don't like: GROUP PROJECTS (I seem to always get stuck with people who are stupid and/or lazy) and activities that are supposed to ~make learning fun~. (I can't think of an example right now, but this stuff bugged me when I was younger.)
Making learning "fun", I also hated that with a passion. It just slowed down everything and made it less clear. I wanted the information, not the "fun". Movies, moving the tables to other positions,... I felt like I was wasting my time there. I could learn much faster if they just gave the information. I wanted to have more time to create my own fun which didn't have anything to do with learning.
I guess I'm miffed every time I have to amuse myself on command.
Of course, making learning more fun by adding experiments is always allowed.

Group projects were okay, as long as I did all the work on my own.

The ironic thing is that, now I'm a teacher, I can't teach like I would prefer being taught! I have to switch working forms often, I have to "entertain" rather than teach...
 

Little Linguist

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Group projects were okay, as long as I did all the work on my own.

The ironic thing is that, now I'm a teacher, I can't teach like I would prefer being taught! I have to switch working forms often, I have to "entertain" rather than teach...

Amen.
 

Little Linguist

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Okay, what happened here was that I wrote a huge reply to Little Linguist, which my computer promptly deleted for no good reason, which annoyed me to the point that I avoided the thread for a long time after... :( So I apologize.

Here's a reply, for realz this time:

If I were your student, I would really like you :) Everything you've said has sounded like your class would be really fun and your students would learn a lot. My only concern is the bolded; if you said that on the first day of class, when talking about your expectations etc, I would immediately start worrying that I wouldn't figure everything out. What if I got left behind? What if I totally missed the point of the class?? What if my grades sucked and I had no idea how to fix them, and the professor (i.e. you) told me to figure it out on my own?

Of course, that entire concern would be moot if I were naturally good at the topic. But if I wasn't, and if I struggled with the concepts, that would be where I'd start to worry. Also: you seem like the sort of professor who would make yourself very available for questions whenever needed, and would help people if they were having trouble, and that's really what matters most. :yes:

Oh, yes, I should have clarified. What I mean is: My professors always tell me to make activities 'transparent', e.g. we are doing this because... and at the end you should be able to..., and all that. But I think to myself, "Well, wouldn't that make people feel like babies?" :-/ Some people don't like being explicitly told what to do and why they're doing it. Others do, but not so explicitly. Others just want to learn their own way, and. Argh. Well, you see what I mean?

And I think I should clarify that I am always available for students. :) So I would never expect you to 'figure it out on your own' and that I would never be there for you. It's just that I think explicit kind of explanations should be on a case-by-case basis. Even though I have to invest more effort, it seems to work more effectively.

But you have a point. I have to mull all this over in my brain.
 
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