[ESTJ] Ask an ESTJ!

[sui generis]

You're right, anger is WAY easier to deal with than sadness, but I still find it distracting. Like, when I'm angry, I can't concentrate or DO ANYTHING until the anger has largely dissipated.

And I TOTALLY hear you about being afraid of being judged in those other situations too. It's less so the older I get, but still.

 

[EJCC]

2000th post!!!

ESTJ business casual office party!!!

 

[Tamske]

Cheers
How to spot a party organized by an ESTJ? Everyone you've invited is there!

 

[EJCC]

Cheers
How to spot a party organized by an ESTJ? Everyone you've invited is there!

YES!!!
Quote of the day!!

 

[EJCC]

So I have a question for other ESTJs, and for other people who know ESTJs, because I had a random personal insight and wanted to know if it was type-related:

Do you ever find yourself wanting to rescue the rescuer? And by that, I mean wanting to befriend and help people who tend to give and give and get nothing in return. I ask because I realized that it's a trend, among many of my friends. As many of you know, most of my closest friends are ENFJs or INFJs, and even my ENTP friend has a tendency to "adopt" people, and surround herself with an awkward group of friends who are too immature to know what it means to be a good friend - i.e. that it's give-and-take, not use-for-entertainment. So, sometimes I feel like I'm the person who the people who always get vented at go to vent You have no idea how many times my INFJ friends have gone up to me and vent about how people keep using them as therapists and the whole time they were wanting to go "SHUT UP I DON'T CARE!"... Or the number of times that my ENFJ friends vent to me that they're feeling conflicted about how all their friends push all their troubles onto them, completely overwhelming and exhausting them, and yet they still continue in a cycle with those friends because they really care for them and want to be there for them... And in either case, I usually end up being the one who brings the xNFJ friend back down to earth, reassuring them just by being straightforward and reasonable.

So I guess I was wondering, since I'm so often in that role, and since it seems to fit what I know about ESTJs, whether you've seen that in the ESTJs you know? Or, in the case of the ESTJs who read this: Do you relate?

 

[sui generis]

*thinks* I HAVE had that happen, but it's not something that occurs often. More often, people tell me that I'm easy to talk to about things (incl things like this) because I'm honest and not full of shit.

 

[strychnine]

You seem to be able to concentrate well and have a strong work ethic. (I mean this in a good way, if it is not clear ) On the other hand I have the attention span of a gnat and a nonexistent work ethic. Do you have any tips to help me focus better? Thanks.

 

[EJCC]

Yeah, I actually struggle with focusing sometimes, too; for example, I COULD be working right now, but nothing is due sooner than a week from now and therefore I have no motivation. So because of that - i.e. because I'm not perfect at concentrating - I might have some helpful advice:

The trick is to be motivated; the best way is to enjoy what you're working on, but if you don't (which is probably most of the time, as it is with me), then you have to play tricks on yourself in order to become motivated. Get yourself a proverbial carrot to dangle in front of you; e.g. "When this is done, I will watch TV." Or maybe, if the internet is what's distracting you, go somewhere without wi-fi to do your work. Or give yourself an ultimatum, e.g. 2 hours to complete a particular task. Or, if the sort of work you're talking about is the sort of work you can do in groups, I highly recommend finding a study buddy/work buddy who is very disciplined; I find that I focus better when studying with focused people because they're a good influence on me.

Those are just off the top of my head - but I hope they can be of use

 

[Fidelia]

So I have a question for other ESTJs, and for other people who know ESTJs, because I had a random personal insight and wanted to know if it was type-related:

Do you ever find yourself wanting to rescue the rescuer? And by that, I mean wanting to befriend and help people who tend to give and give and get nothing in return. I ask because I realized that it's a trend, among many of my friends. As many of you know, most of my closest friends are ENFJs or INFJs, and even my ENTP friend has a tendency to "adopt" people, and surround herself with an awkward group of friends who are too immature to know what it means to be a good friend - i.e. that it's give-and-take, not use-for-entertainment. So, sometimes I feel like I'm the person who the people who always get vented at go to vent You have no idea how many times my INFJ friends have gone up to me and vent about how people keep using them as therapists and the whole time they were wanting to go "SHUT UP I DON'T CARE!"... Or the number of times that my ENFJ friends vent to me that they're feeling conflicted about how all their friends push all their troubles onto them, completely overwhelming and exhausting them, and yet they still continue in a cycle with those friends because they really care for them and want to be there for them... And in either case, I usually end up being the one who brings the xNFJ friend back down to earth, reassuring them just by being straightforward and reasonable.

So I guess I was wondering, since I'm so often in that role, and since it seems to fit what I know about ESTJs, whether you've seen that in the ESTJs you know? Or, in the case of the ESTJs who read this: Do you relate?

This is interesting. Yes, many of the ESTJs I've known seem to attract this type of person. I don't know whether you guys go looking for it, or if we just find you because you seem straightforward, sensible and sure of yourself and are rather drama free. (Plus you make good food). What do you think it is about rescuing rescuers that you find rewarding?

 

[EJCC]

This is interesting. Yes, many of the ESTJs I've known seem to attract this type of person. I don't know whether you guys go looking for it, or if we just find you because you seem straightforward, sensible and sure of yourself and are rather drama free. (Plus you make good food). What do you think it is about rescuing rescuers that you find rewarding?

Lol at the food thing

I think it's a little of both - we look for it, and it looks for us. On the one hand... although it seems like everyone is drawn towards those nurturing types, what makes it different with ESTJs is that the nurturing types see something different in them - because the ESTJs are so self-reliant, and so reliable, probably. And I can see what the appeal would be! I mean, how fantastic would it be, as an adopting sort of person, to meet someone who doesn't require as much work and who treats you like a human being instead of a sounding board?

But on the other hand... from an ESTJ standpoint, I think those nurturing types (not MBTI, but "types" in general) really balance us out. I like having friends who really care, and are there for people - as well as being loyal and principled and everything else on the ESTJ friend checklist. And it helps that we're both nurturing in our own ways, and neither of us want to be in one-sided friendships - so we nurture each other

 

[Fidelia]

I think there's also an element from us of admiration for someone who seems to not need processing time in the same way, who doesn't hesitate to say their opinion, and someone who always seems competant and in charge. People tend to like you guys socially and also look to you for direction. To some extent, the INFJs I know desperately wish they embodied those qualities. You seem like you have it all together.

I'm surprised actually at how many INFJs wind up with ESTJs or ENTJs but then get upset with the dynamic later because they are unsure of what the EXTJ appreciates about them, or they find them insensitive or they need more out loud processing to keep them from growing panicky when the ESTJ goes into their cave to deal with their problems instead of to the INFJ.

I wonder if there is a way around this if both parties have better knowledge of each other and what their needs are. Certainly I've learned that most EXTJ types would prefer me to respond immediately with exactly what I think, rather than filtering through it and waiting for my emotions to settle so I can try to ensure a fair and reasonable perspective. In fact, it seems it would be better to be wrong or unreasonable, but act matter of fact and sure about it than to burden them with upset or analysis after the fact. I'm not sure if this is entirely possible with me (in a romantic relationship context), although in a friendship, I think I probably could learn to make the necessary adjustments to make things go smoother for all parties involved. You've also been helpful in understanding better about the whole venting issue and how to go about it more effectively.

I would have never thought of actually presenting an ESTJ with the possible options for how I could respond to be supportive during difficult times, as sui explained. That's nice to know.

 

[strychnine]

Haha I have a week with nothing due too. I am planning to sleep all week.

You're right, most of the time I don't enjoy what I am doing. I think I'm going to go to the library and leave my computer at home. You are right about the intense environment. I just need to isolate myself for a set amount of time, and say, if I don't finish this in 4 hours I can't get out of the library. AHHH. LOL. I think this will work, thanks

 

[EJCC]

I think there's also an element from us of admiration for someone who seems to not need processing time in the same way, who doesn't hesitate to say their opinion, and someone who always seems competant and in charge. People tend to like you guys socially and also look to you for direction. To some extent, the INFJs I know desperately wish they embodied those qualities. You seem like you have it all together.

I'm surprised actually at how many INFJs wind up with ESTJs or ENTJs but then get upset with the dynamic later because they are unsure of what the EXTJ appreciates about them, or they find them insensitive or they need more out loud processing to keep them from growing panicky when the ESTJ goes into their cave to deal with their problems instead of to the INFJ.

Thanks for this. I keep forgetting that we come across like that, to people. And you're so right, about the irony there. I hadn't made the connection before, but it really is the same thing; the ESTJ comes across that way because any serious doubts they may have are sorted out in their cave (which is a fantastic word choice ) So, since you've been in a relationship like that... Is it because you really do think, initially, that they are perfectly without doubt and in control? Is that where the INFJ's surprise comes from?

I wonder if there is a way around this if both parties have better knowledge of each other and what their needs are. Certainly I've learned that most EXTJ types would prefer me to respond immediately with exactly what I think, rather than filtering through it and waiting for my emotions to settle so I can try to ensure a fair and reasonable perspective. In fact, it seems it would be better to be wrong or unreasonable, but act matter of fact and sure about it than to burden them with upset or analysis after the fact.

Actually, in a situation like this, I'd be perfectly happy if you said "I'll think about it and let you know afterwards" - and then follow up on it. My INFJ friends sometimes respond in an argument with "I'll think about it", but because they never follow up with me, I usually assume that "I'll think about it" is their nice way of saying "You can never convince me of this, but I'm too nice to tell you that."

I would have never thought of actually presenting an ESTJ with the possible options for how I could respond to be supportive during difficult times, as sui explained. That's nice to know.

Oh totally! We love that sort of thing. Guidelines



P.S. on a slightly related note... Even though it seems like most ESTJ clashes come from NFJs, I have been VERY confused by an INFP friend recently. Here's an example - this issue of her giving up chocolate temporarily.



INFP: So I've decided to give up chocolate for Lent.
ESTJ: But you aren't Christian.
INFP: Nope.
ESTJ: So... why, then?
INFP: I saw a TV special on Ecuador and how workers are abused there and one of the women on the special had given up chocolate.
ESTJ: OK. So, you want to help Ecuador by giving up chocolate?
INFP: Well... sort of. But I want to lose a few pounds.
ESTJ: Oh, ok. *is confused but gives up on asking any more questions*

At a study break, later that day...
INFP: I'm probably going to be eating a lot more candy, because of having given up chocolate.
ESTJ: But... if the purpose of your giving up chocolate was to lose weight, well, those sugary candies are actually a lot more unhealthy than chocolate. Especially since you only eat dark chocolate. Dark chocolate has some health benefits... whereas I don't think Starburst is good for you in any way at all.
INFP: It seems like everyone wants to get involved in this! It's just something I want to do.
ESTJ: *bewildered pause*
INFP: It's to see if I can do it.

Later...
INFP: *as if it was any other day* That chocolate chip cookie looks really good. I think I'll have one.
ESTJ: *can't take it anymore* You've been talking about this for so long, and now... I don't know! I don't know what I'm supposed to say here. Should I tell you to not have one? How much do you care about this??
INFP: *totally calmly* It's just one cookie. It's not a big deal.
ESTJ: But you said... But... but you were really serious about this no chocolate thing!!! I don't understand!

Later in the same meal...
INFP: You know, I think you're right. Maybe I shouldn't have one. I'll have a sugar cookie instead.



I HAVE NO IDEA WTF IS UP WITH THIS. It is probably the least logical thing I have ever heard of. And such a lack of discipline! I mean, I guess I did what I could? But what on earth did she expect of me - blind and unthinking support? Sigh

Well, either way, my point is that I get along with INFJs pretty well, naturally. But if this is what INFPs are like normally, I don't know if I could take it! I'd have to ask around at an Ask an INFP thread first...

EDIT: I should add that the whole situation with the INFP had been going on for a couple of days. Every day, the chocolate thing was something new. Or maybe it wasn't. But yeah - it wasn't just me being easily annoyed.

 

[strychnine]

Ok I'm not an INFP but close. Hopefully I am not intruding on your space. I understand that it does not seem logical (Te). I can sort of relate to "It's to see if I can do it.". I mean, doing the best I can is my aim. But personally, if I voice something aloud I can't go back on it. If I told you I wasn't going to eat chocolate, you would not see me eat it, or even think about it haha. I might cheat when not around you, but probably not, because there is a little voice saying, "what would this person think of me if they knew I went back on my promise?" I would want you to think I am strong willed. (This is if I knew you in meatspace, of course, not to weird you out or anything haha)

I swore off carbohydrate rich junk food in December and managed to blurt it out to a friend (ISTJ probably). A week later I almost got pizza but I was scared she would see me buy it on campus. Yes, this is what stopped me, as trivial as it sounds. I still haven't gone back actually. Now it's just habit to avoid junk food. I guess I'm just trying to say it works to tell people what you're going to do. At least for me. *shrug*

(Haha, if I had Te I could make posts that had a point to them!)

 

[Tamske]

^No, it's not Te you need for consistency, it's Ti Te is the efficiency one.

@EJCC I can see the point of your friend, though. She just wanted to try things out. She's just blurting out ideas, without really an intent to hold on to them. Probably she's thinking now "whoa, why does EJCC take everything seriously? Now I've got to appear as if I've really thought this out!" It also seems she doesn't really want you to point out the problems - it can seem quite controlling actually. After all, it's just about chocolate... It's not your business to make sure she follows through on her intentions.
Of course, "making sure other people follow through their intentions" looks like something an ESTJ would do! And this can lead to clashes like the one you described, but it also can lead to great results (eg one finished manuscript and a few well on their way). Just make sure the other would like your meddling...

 

[strychnine]

^No, it's not Te you need for consistency, it's Ti Te is the efficiency one.

I wasn't talking about consistency, were you suggesting that my post is inconsistent? Anyway, my point with mentioning Te at the end was that I don't know what point I'm making until my post is actually done. I thought this was due to weak Te. Te seems to be useful for planning out posts beforehand. I notice this when writing essays too. Professors seem to want a very Te kind of thing where you lay out your main arguments in the intro, super structured essay. To do this, I have to write the intro after the rest is done, because I don't know what I think unless I've already written it out. I don't know what side I'm arguing for unless I've argued and finished. Hence the rambling. Te could probably condense this post itself down to two lines - efficiency, yes, I need that!

 

[sui generis]

@EJCC I can see the point of your friend, though. She just wanted to try things out. She's just blurting out ideas, without really an intent to hold on to them. Probably she's thinking now "whoa, why does EJCC take everything seriously? Now I've got to appear as if I've really thought this out!" It also seems she doesn't really want you to point out the problems - it can seem quite controlling actually. After all, it's just about chocolate... It's not your business to make sure she follows through on her intentions.
Of course, "making sure other people follow through their intentions" looks like something an ESTJ would do!

I actually repped something to EJCC about this-- I said something about "don't ask me to hold you accountable if you don't want me to!"

I think it's very much just a case of viewing things differently. I don't talk about things that are just POSSIBLE unless I preface it with something like "I'm playing around with this idea of...". I make it very clear what's just ideas and what's going to actually happen, and I don't think most other types/people do. Which means that I'm often all because someone didn't follow through with something they'd said they'd do.

Is this why people think ESTJs are all serious business, all the time?

 

[EJCC]

I can sort of relate to "It's to see if I can do it.". I mean, doing the best I can is my aim. But personally, if I voice something aloud I can't go back on it.

Exactly! Discounting what you said about being okay going back on it when other people aren't looking, I totally relate to this. But the thing is, I don't understand how she could have been so nonchalant about the idea of getting a cookie? She had been talking about this for so long that I thought she was taking it seriously, but if it was that easy for her to slip back into old habits, then I guess it must not have been serious at all.

You know... maybe it was originally for something else, but when her friends (and it wasn't just me) started asking questions about it, maybe she got all defensive and the reason BECAME "just to see if I can". Maybe now she wants to prove everyone wrong? I have no idea - honestly I don't relate to this reason either, but considering how defensive she got at one point in there (when she said "It seems like everyone wants to get involved in this!!"), it might make sense.

Of course, "making sure other people follow through their intentions" looks like something an ESTJ would do! And this can lead to clashes like the one you described, but it also can lead to great results (eg one finished manuscript and a few well on their way). Just make sure the other would like your meddling...

But here's the thing - Good friends should help each other, right? So, she tells me that she has this grand plan, and even though I think her plan makes no sense, it's my duty to help her if she falls off the cookie wagon. Honestly, if she was taking it seriously, shouldn't she have thanked me for convincing her to not eat them? I'm not sure how much, in this situation, the ESTJ should be blamed, considering that we're operating under the assumption that the INFP (or whoever) will do what they say they will do, and will feel about it the way they appear to.

And this isn't the first communication problem I've had with her. She tends to exaggerate for dramatic purposes, and I tend to believe her. Once she exaggerated enough to me about how she was planning on drinking at a party, that I told her that I was concerned for her - and yet again, she was totally surprised that I took her seriously. But what kind of a life is that - i.e. going through your existence hoping that people won't believe what you say? The dishonesty in there really gets to me. (And yes, I know that she wouldn't think of it as dishonesty.)

I think it's very much just a case of viewing things differently. I don't talk about things that are just POSSIBLE unless I preface it with something like "I'm playing around with this idea of...". I make it very clear what's just ideas and what's going to actually happen, and I don't think most other types/people do. Which means that I'm often all because someone didn't follow through with something they'd said they'd do.

Yes. I know other people who are like that too, thankfully (who are all Te types ). But I totally relate to this. If I say I'm going to do something, no matter how arbitrary or small the thing is, I feel guilty if I don't do it. It doesn't matter if other people are around or not, because for me it's about the principle of the thing. Which is why I was so stunned when my friend not only wanted a cookie then, but treated it as if it wasn't a big deal. If it were me refusing to eat chocolate for Lent, and I had given in and had a cookie, I would have felt like my entire endeavor had failed, and there was no point in going back; I would have abandoned the project in shame. Because what's the point in doing something "to see if you can do it", when you fail within the first three days? After all, that's proof that you CAN'T do it - which answers the fundamental question of the task.


p.s. This friend actually tested as INFJ, but I still think she seems INFP because I see much MUCH more Fi than Fe in her. Thoughts?

 

[Fidelia]

Lol! I've been caught up on that stuff before. I've found that with a lot of my NXP friends, they tend to think aloud. I'll just get readjusted to whatever they were suggesting and then they seem surprised that I assumed this was the final edition of the plan when they were just throwing around ideas. What throws me off is that they often sound as if it's a done deal, but they are just in the midst of brainstorming and don't feel at all like what they've stated is final.

Now, about the cave thing. I think the issue is that INFJs actually require other people to process their thoughts, and if they go off on their own and won't talk about something, it either means they are 1) really in poor emotional health (call an ambulance!) 2) they don't like the person who is inquiring or are very upset with them and so won't open up to them 3) they need some drawing out and prompting. Usually we don't open up to people unless invited to do so and if we feel close to them and are kind of able to predict their reaction. Therefore, when someone very close to us just holes up with no explanation as to their thought processes or indication of what's wrong, we feel it's being caring to go after them, we feel rejected because they don't ever turn to us when they are at their lowest ebb and that's one of the primary ways we define closeness (would you share your negative thoughts and feelings as well as your positive ones with them) and we feel panicky that maybe something is desperately wrong and assume the worst and then we hover and annoy the ESTJ more.

Also, because the ESTJ never indicates any vulnerability or unsureness, it seems appealing at first because they come off as Superman or something and we wish we were like that sometimes. After awhile when the INFJ knows them well enough to see that is not really the case, they just get frustrated because it seems like they are always cast in the role of being the needy one being helped by the INFJ but they are not trusted enough for it to work reciprocally or that the ESTJ is just remarkably non-self-aware and unwilling to ever change that.

As far as speaking in the moment, I guess I'm referring more to things like when the person has said something that we felt was hurtful or insensitive to either us or others. It would be better to just say it straight out and matter of factly even if there hadn't been as much time to let it cook, rather than make a deal out of it later when the EXTJ thought everything was fine. They feel either picked to death and needlessly upset when the INFJ soon settles down (not realizing that they need someone's help and additional info to contextualize and process those kinds of things and that they are also making valient attempts to not hold grudges or be difficult even though their feelings haven't entirely evaporated) or like the INFJ is the oversensitive one and just quit listening. INFJs have problems with delayed processing, and every piece of new information starts a re-examination of what happened, which seems very much to other types like holding on to nit-picky stuff.

I don't know - I mean that's what it looks like from my perspective anyway. I may be incorrect in my assessment, but as I've known several and the same sorts of things tend to surface, I'm assuming there's a larger pattern. What do you think?

 

[sui generis]

I would have never thought of actually presenting an ESTJ with the possible options for how I could respond to be supportive during difficult times, as sui explained. That's nice to know.

So glad to be helpful! It's not something I'd even thought of until that conversation... except that the more I thought about it, I realized something. That asking-me-what-I-need approach is SO helpful to me that I find myself doing it to other people.. who find it less helpful. I remember talking to a friend who was upset, and I was like... so, how can I help? Do you need a hug or to talk or....? She looked at me like I'd grown a second head. I felt stupid for not being able to intuit what she needed automatically.