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[ESTJ] Ask an ESTJ!

Qlip

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That's the thing about ESTJs - with regard to opinions and motivations, we're incredibly up front. But that's not to say that we don't hide things. Everybody has a facet of themselves that they don't reveal to everyone. It's just that what we hold in are feelings, not facts. A lot of Thinkers are like that, from my experience - blunt, but avoiding vulnerability.
Yes, I suppose that is often true. It's an interesting fact of human nature that the people that seem the toughest are usually defending a soft spot.

Interesting that I'd hear this from an INTP. Most people I've encountered who have this issue are INFJs. They vent at people, and ESTJs take it as sincerity and get confused/bewildered.
Oh, no. By hot air I meant more like thinking INTP out loud, aka babbling ;). Not so much actually dumping or venting. I do this occasionally, but not terribly often and I always mean what I say.

With regards to ESTJs reading messages into things - my theory is that it's because, no matter how talkative an ESTJ is, they don't use many unnecessary words. They get right to the point. So, because they have that internal standard for themselves, they can't help but project that on other people, and assume that they mean everything they say.
I guess everyone does this, project and assume that the other person thinks like themselves.

I think it's cool that ESTJ's seem to have such concrete thoughts. When a subject comes up, like for instance, finding ways to work with people we find unpleasant, I automatically think of a theoretical person that I would find unpleasant. Heck even if I *meet* an unpleasant person I classify them as an abstract. An ESTJ is thinking of one specific unpleasant person, and probably the one that pissed her off yesterday. It's like watching the engine run in a car with the hood up.

The closest thing that I can come up with is that I sometimes think out loud. My INTP dad, for example, will call me out on the fact that, when asked, I won't necessarily give THE reason for why I do something right away. And I have to explain to him that I didn't know the real reason, right away. I have to brainstorm. And I have to do that because - and this is something that he doesn't get about me - I have a hard time just sitting and thinking of a reply, when asked to sit and think of one. Without outside stimulation, I start to think about the fact that I'm thinking, and my mind wanders, and suddenly I am completely unable to get my mind to work, and the pressure builds up and I can't even answer the question anymore. Just spouting off reason after reason comes more naturally to me.
I've read this, about ESTJs being more about doing than reflecting. I envy this sometimes, but reflection has got me out of some bad behavior loops that I'd otherwise be still stuck in today.
However, that differs from venting, because I still mean everything I'm saying - all the reasons are still valid (except for select occasions, and usually the statement will be followed by "Wait, that's not even remotely true. Sorry about that"). They're just not in order of importance.

I guess what I was talking was code speak. I don't know how common this is with ESTJs, but my ESTJ will drop 'hints' instead of out right saying things. It seems to her referring to something indirectly is a non confrontational way of making a point or saying something that she would otherwise feel uncomfortable saying. Unfortunately you have to drop an anvil on me to get something like that through, it took me by surprise when I realized this.

It also had me wondering if she was taking some of my random mutterings as some sort of hints or code speak, and then I started getting really worried about what I talk about. It would account for some of the misunderstood behavior.
 

Tamske

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I'll be honest :)laugh: speaking of unsubtle ESTJs): My dad is INTP, and whenever we get into debates, I get really frustrated with him. He'll go off on these tangents and I'll have no idea what his actual point is - which is funny/ironic/hypocritical, since he gets really irritated with people who take too long to get to their point. And because he does that, I interpret that as meaning that I have permission to act the same way with him, so I always feel free to butt in and say "But what's your point?" or "I'm really confused. What are you trying to say?" And when even that won't help the situation, I'll refuse to talk to him about it any more. Not because it's annoying (although it is that), but because it's so draining. I don't want to have to work that hard to understand what someone is talking about, when I could talk to someone else who is actually clear about what they're trying to say.
Lol, I recognize this, but from your father's stance.
I like to debate until everything is clear and just to explore ideas ad infinitum. My ESTJ gets bored after a while and when everything is clear "for all practical purposes" he wants to get to another topic, while I want to explore the idea further, finding alternative ways to convey the same to get it more clear... I haven't got a "point" yet while I'm debating, I'm trying to find things out.
 

Qlip

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Lol, I recognize this, but from your father's stance.
I like to debate until everything is clear and just to explore ideas ad infinitum. My ESTJ gets bored after a while and when everything is clear "for all practical purposes" he wants to get to another topic, while I want to explore the idea further, finding alternative ways to convey the same to get it more clear... I haven't got a "point" yet while I'm debating, I'm trying to find things out.

I do this too, and appropriately enough, I'm working on a theory that I may be a 'broken' or borderline ENTP. Even though I test as INTP, I have very strong ESTP characteristics.
 

sui generis

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Hmm. I would have to say I use it a fair amount, but it's rarely meant to be malicious.
 

Lisa*Lisa

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Hmm. I would have to say I use it a fair amount, but it's rarely meant to be malicious.

My ESTJ friend and I get along remarkably well (personality types be damned!) and I think it's because we're both incredibly sarcastic. I've found that she's far less sarcastic with her other friends than with me. Guess I just bring that out in her. I don't know if that's a good thing, though.
 

sui generis

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Thinking about your question made me think about how my humor is sometimes misunderstood, and I wonder if that is true of other ESTJs as well. I'm sometimes mistaken for being kidding when I'm serious (and I'm often srs) and serious when I'm kidding. :dont: It's like my sarcasm is expressed in a way that's really similar to my my actual anger, and poeple get them confused.

I am not surprised you have an ESTJ best friend-- one of my BFFs is an INFP. :cheers:
 

EJCC

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It's like watching the engine run in a car with the hood up.
Sometimes I wish everyone was like this, so I wouldn't have to consciously/effortfully try to figure out what's going through people's heads. It's a common theme with people of all types - "Why isn't everyone like ME?" :laugh:
I guess what I was talking was code speak. I don't know how common this is with ESTJs, but my ESTJ will drop 'hints' instead of out right saying things. It seems to her referring to something indirectly is a non confrontational way of making a point or saying something that she would otherwise feel uncomfortable saying. Unfortunately you have to drop an anvil on me to get something like that through, it took me by surprise when I realized this.
I'm more and more surprised that this person is actually an ESTJ, because that's not an ESTJ trait. At all. We're almost always honest and straightforward people. In fact, that stereotypical girl trait - i.e. giving hints and getting mad/blaming people when they don't get the hints - really pisses me off. Someone else earlier in the thread was talking about how her mom had an interchange with her, where she was mad, and the person asked what the problem was, and she said "You know what the problem is." and didn't elaborate. That's when I knew that she was NOT a healthy ESTJ. Because we don't do that.
It also had me wondering if she was taking some of my random mutterings as some sort of hints or code speak, and then I started getting really worried about what I talk about. It would account for some of the misunderstood behavior.
One person I know who often uses me as a sounding board will often warn me in advance that she's doing that, e.g. "I'm just thinking out loud here". That might be something to try.
My ESTJ friend and I get along remarkably well (personality types be damned!) and I think it's because we're both incredibly sarcastic. I've found that she's far less sarcastic with her other friends than with me. Guess I just bring that out in her. I don't know if that's a good thing, though.
I don't know if it's a good or a bad thing. It's just her adapting her sense of humor to the situation. I don't know about other ESTJs, but I do that all the time - e.g. I'm pretty chatty and Te around my quieter friends (who are INFJ and ENTP, mostly), but around my louder friends (INTJ and ENFJ), I'm more of a listener than a talker. I guess everyone does that a little, but I don't notice it in as extreme a form, with other people. Sometimes I even have to catch myself when I do that, because sometimes when I try to make nice with total jerks, I find myself acting like a jerk, because that's the only way I can get along with them. And usually when that happens, I try to remove myself from the situation so I can stop being horrible and regain my dignity :doh:
Lol, I recognize this, but from your father's stance.
I like to debate until everything is clear and just to explore ideas ad infinitum. My ESTJ gets bored after a while and when everything is clear "for all practical purposes" he wants to get to another topic, while I want to explore the idea further, finding alternative ways to convey the same to get it more clear... I haven't got a "point" yet while I'm debating, I'm trying to find things out.
:huh: Wow. To each their own, I suppose. I mean, without that sort of approach, the world wouldn't have quite as much innovation. But still... :( I can't function well in conversations like that.

Thinking about your question made me think about how my humor is sometimes misunderstood, and I wonder if that is true of other ESTJs as well. I'm sometimes mistaken for being kidding when I'm serious (and I'm often srs) and serious when I'm kidding. :dont: It's like my sarcasm is expressed in a way that's really similar to my my actual anger, and poeple get them confused.
That definitely happens to me sometimes. Not as much anymore, but it was a huge problem in high school - adults would get my sense of humor, and peers wouldn't. Most people I knew who thought I was funny were over 35 :doh: and most kids I knew, maybe four deadpan/funny-ish/random statements out of ten, would go "Wait - was that a joke?"
 

Qlip

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That definitely happens to me sometimes. Not as much anymore, but it was a huge problem in high school - adults would get my sense of humor, and peers wouldn't. Most people I knew who thought I was funny were over 35 :doh: and most kids I knew, maybe four deadpan/funny-ish/random statements out of ten, would go "Wait - was that a joke?"

Heh, I've been on the other side of this. At its most deadpan, ESTJ humor is a contrary statement, which doesn't even register as humor on my scale. When I miss it it mostly has a 'you got trolled' effect on me. But I'm guessing they just thought that the statement was *obviously* a joke. When paired with a sarcastic voice ESTJ humor suits me just fine.
 

Lisa*Lisa

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It's like my sarcasm is expressed in a way that's really similar to my my actual anger, and people get them confused.

This is very well said. I can totally see this in her and there have been times I interpret her comments incorrectly because of this.

I am not surprised you have an ESTJ best friend-- one of my BFFs is an INFP. :cheers:

We really do have a great relationship. She helps me get my crap together and I help her to relax and not take everything so seriously. It works well for us. :hug: (<------ I'm the pink, she's the blue.)

I don't know if it's a good or a bad thing. It's just her adapting her sense of humor to the situation. I don't know about other ESTJs, but I do that all the time - e.g. I'm pretty chatty and Te around my quieter friends (who are INFJ and ENTP, mostly), but around my louder friends (INTJ and ENFJ), I'm more of a listener than a talker. I guess everyone does that a little, but I don't notice it in as extreme a form, with other people. Sometimes I even have to catch myself when I do that, because sometimes when I try to make nice with total jerks, I find myself acting like a jerk, because that's the only way I can get along with them. And usually when that happens, I try to remove myself from the situation so I can stop being horrible and regain my dignity :doh:

This is interesting. I'll have to gauge her behavior the next time we're out and see if she handles herself the same way. Thanks!
 

strychnine

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(x-posted from ISFJ thread) Please tell me if you identify with the following quote. Kindly do not search or otherwise look up where it's from ;). But I would like to know if you identify with it.
I often describe my thought process as something similar to browsing wikipedia. Starts with one page, find an interesting term and go to another page. This then leads to more and more pages until I forget what I was looking up in the first place. Browsers have back buttons. My mind doesn't work that [way]. I often go off on weird tangents and then spend an hour trying to remember what I meant to think about initially.

How often does something like this happen to other ISFJs? Or other SJs? It happens to me a lot, actually this is pretty much how I think all the time, and I thought it was a result of dom/aux Si but I am no longer sure.

Thanks, friends. :hug:
 

EJCC

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I dunno. It's kind of how I am when I'm having a conversation, but that's just because what I talk about is so incredibly stream-of-consciousness that I don't even associate it with a thought process by the end. More like a "conversation topic process", I suppose.

I'd say that my thought process is more like making an Excel spreadsheet. First, I enter in all the data that I know. Then I delete the data that's irrelevant, leaving me with just the "important stuff". Then I condense that to something user-friendly and easy to read, with captions and pretty templates, and I present it to others in that form.
 

strychnine

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I dunno. It's kind of how I am when I'm having a conversation, but that's just because what I talk about is so incredibly stream-of-consciousness that I don't even associate it with a thought process by the end. More like a "conversation topic process", I suppose.

I'd say that my thought process is more like making an Excel spreadsheet. First, I enter in all the data that I know. Then I delete the data that's irrelevant, leaving me with just the "important stuff". Then I condense that to something user-friendly and easy to read, with captions and pretty templates, and I present it to others in that form.

Ok. This sounds like Te filtering through an Si store of information. Is it Te that picks out what is the "important stuff" vs. what's irrelevant? Interesting, anyway. Thanks. :D
 

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Ok. This sounds like Te filtering through an Si store of information. Is it Te that picks out what is the "important stuff" vs. what's irrelevant? Interesting, anyway. Thanks. :D
Reviving the thread again...

Yeah, I think it's Te. Didn't respond earlier because I wasn't sure. But I think it's the Si that stores everything, and Te that's decisive about what to deal with.

Anybody have any other questions?
 

Qlip

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What do you guys like to watch on TV, if you watch TV?
 

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I don't watch a lot of TV. I don't have cable or anything, but lots of times I keep it on just for the background noise. I like nerdy educational shows quite a bit. :nerd: I enjoy some sitcoms when I feel like turning my brain off. Also, trashy shows like "Maury" and "Cops" because I'm honest enough to admit that I'm not all highbrow, all the time. :dont:

Shows I've loved in the past, and continue to love, in no real order: Roseanne, ER, Frasier, Murphy Brown, Northern Exposure, Twin Peaks, The X-Files (purely because of the Mulder/Scully characters; no interest in the sci-fit bits). :wubbie:

I don't watch many movies-- I find a lot of them predictable in a not-fun way :rolli: and I have a problem with suspending my disbelief for that long :laugh:. I have a Netflix subscription, but it is mostly used for watching documentaries and TV episodes.
 

EJCC

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What do you guys like to watch on TV, if you watch TV?
I love TV. I think I like TV shows more than I like movies, because I like that there's more time to develop a complicated narrative, and multifaceted characters. You really get to know people in TV shows, and you only get a glimpse in movies.

Anywho, here are my favorites...


Shows that I watched or once watched religiously:
Treme, Dexter, House, The West Wing, Alias, Daria, LOST, Scrubs

Shows that I discovered on DVD and now am head over heels in love with:
The Wire, Day Break, Veronica Mars, Firefly, Foyle's War, Sports Night, Dead Like Me, Twin Peaks ("DAMN good coffee!")

Shows that I watch whenever I see them randomly on TV:
Star Trek TNG, Warehouse 13, Project Runway, Iron Chef (original Japanese version, not friggin Iron Chef America), Mythbusters, The Muppet Show, The Biggest Loser, The Daily Show, The Colbert Report

Sometimes I'll watch movies, but usually not, since I'd rather watch them on my own time, and without commercials.
 

sui generis

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YYESSS, Mythbusters! :wubbie: See, it's a good thing that I don't have cable, because I'd do nothing except watch "Dirty Jobs" and "Mythbusters"! (Also, that "I Didn't Know I Was Pregnant" show on TLC because it scares the shit out of me. :dont:)

I also like shows where the characters are complicated and multifaceted, and there is a lot of long, complicated backstory. :yes:
 
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DJAchtundvierzig

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So... I heard the ESTJ is supposed to be a great match for the INFJ... why is this? And what do you like about the INFJ?
 

sui generis

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:thinking: I like INFJs, at least those that I've known. They're good people. They're honest and passionate and they're more organized than INFPs. :laugh:


Are my fellow ESTJs prone to having bad tempers? :blush:
 
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