• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

[ESTJ] Ask an ESTJ!

Fidelia

Iron Maiden
Staff member
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
14,497
MBTI Type
INFJ
Tamske brought up an interesting point there. I do understand where the ESTJ's see their way as the truth rather than them pushing their opinion on someone. It seems though that the combination of this view, their directive nature and their dislike of vulnerability leads to pointing out other people's flaws/need to change but never to their own. I think people would not bristle nearly so much if it seemed like there were more give and take. However, when anything gets on that ground, most of the ESTJs I know shut down the discussion, leaving the other person feeling overly criticized and invalidated because it doesn't go both ways. I'm sure ESTJs are even more aware of their shortcomings than other people (they strike me as being unusually hard on themselves). Would it hurt to let others know they are aware they have shortcomings or things to change too?
 

Space_Oddity

New member
Joined
Oct 12, 2009
Messages
359
MBTI Type
CAT
Instinctual Variant
so
Tamske brought up an interesting point there. I do understand where the ESTJ's see their way as the truth rather than them pushing their opinion on someone. It seems though that the combination of this view, their directive nature and their dislike of vulnerability leads to pointing out other people's flaws/need to change but never to their own. I think people would not bristle nearly so much if it seemed like there were more give and take. However, when anything gets on that ground, most of the ESTJs I know shut down the discussion, leaving the other person feeling overly criticized and invalidated because it doesn't go both ways. I'm sure ESTJs are even more aware of their shortcomings than other people (they strike me as being unusually hard on themselves). Would it hurt to let others know they are aware they have shortcomings or things to change too?

This is really interesting... I often have this issue with my ESTJ boyfriend. Recently we talked about it and it became clear we're true "opposites" in a way: I'm always ready to point out people's qualities and make them feel better about themselves, but I'm rarely so kind towards myself; while he's always ready to criticise others, but he rarely criticises himself. No wonder he often makes me feel like s*it >< - I'm already self-critical enough to be constantly critised by my closest person as well (even if just jokingly), especially when I have no natural desire to criticise him back. I should definitely try to be more assertive in this aspect of our relationship.

I think he knows very well he's got mistakes too, but not acknowledging them is something like a "defense mechanism" for him, as well as criticising others and holding onto his "truth". He told me repeatedly that he just "has to" have firm and unchangeable opinions of everything - I guess it's really sort of a "wall" he built around himself a long time ago. Sometimes it makes me think he's actually FAR more sensitive and vulnerable than me, if he has to built such a strong defense... Although I believe these things become very instinctual after a while, they're not anything conscious anymore; and I also believe it must be different for every ESTJ.
 

Fidelia

Iron Maiden
Staff member
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
14,497
MBTI Type
INFJ
Most of the ESTJs I know are acquainted with many people, but close to very few. They find it very hard to be vulnerable even around the ones they are very close to. However, I think you are right that beneath the tough exterior, they are actually extremely hard on themselves and are more sensitive than you would ever guess initially. There was more than one occasion in the past with my ex-bf who was an ESTJ that he admitted much later that he had behaved in a selfish or hurtful way because of jealousy of people responding positively to me or because of something he was worried about or not dealing well with. However, at the time I would never have guessed (until we had been together for several years) that those were the motivations for his behaviour. He found it easier to emotionally distance himself than to go through the potential pain that could lie ahead. He also found it difficult to hear me talk about potentially difficult issues that would induce strong emotion in he or I and would shut it down immediately. I tend to want to express my fears or sadnesses to the people I love most because I want them to understand me. He did the opposite, which made me feel like I was the only person that had problems. Sometimes I think the other issue is a fear of what to do with their own or others emotions so it is easier to just avoid it altogether and make the other person do so as well. Some of the ESTJs I know seem surprised and embarrassed by their own emotions when they do come gushing out and work hard after to regain the face they feel they lost. For me, one of the big issues too was him wanting to take care of me and remind me of things, yet never (admitting to) needing anything from me, even in areas where I clearly had more expertise. He tended to hover and give advice a lot, which I could accept as part of his nature, except for the fact that he couldn't bear to depend on me for anything. It made me feel incompetent and to resent the care he did offer. I never realized how important it is to both depend and be depended on to feel that a relationship is equitable.
 

EJCC

The Devil of TypoC
Joined
Aug 29, 2008
Messages
19,129
MBTI Type
ESTJ
Enneagram
1w9
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
Most of the ESTJs I know are acquainted with many people, but close to very few. They find it very hard to be vulnerable even around the ones they are very close to. However, I think you are right that beneath the tough exterior, they are actually extremely hard on themselves and are more sensitive than you would ever guess initially. There was more than one occasion in the past with my ex-bf who was an ESTJ that he admitted much later that he had behaved in a selfish or hurtful way because of jealousy of people responding positively to me or because of something he was worried about or not dealing well with. However, at the time I would never have guessed (until we had been together for several years) that those were the motivations for his behaviour. He found it easier to emotionally distance himself than to go through the potential pain that could lie ahead. He also found it difficult to hear me talk about potentially difficult issues that would induce strong emotion in he or I and would shut it down immediately. I tend to want to express my fears or sadnesses to the people I love most because I want them to understand me. He did the opposite, which made me feel like I was the only person that had problems. Sometimes I think the other issue is a fear of what to do with their own or others emotions so it is easier to just avoid it altogether and make the other person do so as well. Some of the ESTJs I know seem surprised and embarrassed by their own emotions when they do come gushing out and work hard after to regain the face they feel they lost. For me, one of the big issues too was him wanting to take care of me and remind me of things, yet never (admitting to) needing anything from me, even in areas where I clearly had more expertise. He tended to hover and give advice a lot, which I could accept as part of his nature, except for the fact that he couldn't bear to depend on me for anything. It made me feel incompetent and to resent the care he did offer. I never realized how important it is to both depend and be depended on to feel that a relationship is equitable.
+1, especially the bolded sections.

About the first bolded section: Today, one of the INFJs I know read an article about a beautiful, 150-year-old cathedral in Haiti that was obliterated by the earthquake there. She proceeded to look up pictures of the beautiful murals and such that were on the inside, and showing all the pictures to me. I just don't understand why she does things like that!! I hate that. It makes me sad to look at it, and I'd rather just hear the overview and move on, as opposed to prolonging the sad emotional reaction. The previous time she did that (with a news story or whatever), I literally told her that I didn't want to hear about it anymore.

About the second bolded section: That actually happened to me recently - I was in a good mood for the entire day, and a small bad thing happened and I snapped, completely out of nowhere. Got really pissed off, swore a lot, almost cried, wanted to kick things and scream into a pillow. The people I was with at the time kept apologizing for the small thing, even though it wasn't their fault. Tried to approach me and comfort me, but I really just wanted them to go away, because I was kind of embarrassed (and very uncomfortable - one of my reactions to that was "I don't know these people well enough to be almost crying in front of them!"). So I said to them: "It's okay. How about we just stop talking about it, and pretend like it didn't happen, so I can calm down?" And so they did, and I calmed down. But seriously, after I calmed down, my reaction was "Where the fsck did THAT come from?!?" I'm still not sure. Must have been a build-up of stuff throughout the day...
 

miss fortune

not to be trusted
Joined
Oct 4, 2007
Messages
20,589
Enneagram
827
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
That reminds me of a text I got from my best friend (an ESTJ) the other day that said "is it bad that I'm avoiding reading any story on the earthquake in Haiti? I've decided that the headlines say it all"

We had once discussed the practical side of natural disasters, so it didn't surprize me too much :laugh:
 

EJCC

The Devil of TypoC
Joined
Aug 29, 2008
Messages
19,129
MBTI Type
ESTJ
Enneagram
1w9
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
^ Exactly. :)

Random anecdote: I had a very stressful week last week, and I remembered having seen on a website that when under extreme stress, people start acting like their opposite type. And I TOTALLY did! After having a particularly intense day, I:
- immediately retreated to somewhere quiet,
- had a distinct need to "sort everything out" internally, and not say a word to anyone, and
- felt as if no one was feeling things as deeply as I was(??wtf??)

So that was kind of an unusual experience! :cheese: Not pleasant, but surreal and incredibly fascinating.
 

simulatedworld

Freshman Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2008
Messages
5,552
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
7w6
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
How well do you tend to get along with ENTJs?
 

EJCC

The Devil of TypoC
Joined
Aug 29, 2008
Messages
19,129
MBTI Type
ESTJ
Enneagram
1w9
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
^ I like 'em. They're fun, entertaining people, the way they go off on nerdy tangents :D I think we make good friends. Usually, the ENTJs I know are much more take-charge than me or other ESTJs I know, so I'm the more introverted one. But, you know, when I'm hanging out with an ENTJ friend, we usually take turns with the Te-rambling vs. just nodding and going "Yeah, wow, that's interesting" :) So there's give and take, which is good. Not sure if I can tell that easily whether they like me or just like talking at me, but at least we have good conversation, right? :)
 

EJCC

The Devil of TypoC
Joined
Aug 29, 2008
Messages
19,129
MBTI Type
ESTJ
Enneagram
1w9
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
So... any more questions?
 

FeatheredFrenzy

New member
Joined
Nov 15, 2009
Messages
179
MBTI Type
ISFJ
Are you particularly good at sports? Are you drawn to athletics in general? I know two ESTJs who coach tennis among other things. They can hit a ball with the kind of precision that could kill a bird and it's no big deal to them.
 

EJCC

The Devil of TypoC
Joined
Aug 29, 2008
Messages
19,129
MBTI Type
ESTJ
Enneagram
1w9
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
^ I think it really depends. Some ESTJs are good at sports, e.g. football. Some are just athletic, e.g. joggers, bike riders. I, personally, was never any good at sports, and therefore never did them, because I didn't want to get involved in a sport where I had no chance of winning. However, I'm drawn to athletics - I enjoy working out, even if I'm not that fit, and I "get in the zone" when I work out, and feel better for it afterwards. And every ESTJ I've known (i.e. three or four people including me) has enjoyed exercise of some kind.

But I don't have a lot of evidence to back that up...
 

Tamske

Writing...
Joined
Oct 22, 2009
Messages
1,764
MBTI Type
ENTP
To add to the statistics: hubby doesn't really care about sports. He rides the bike to his work and now and then we go out swimming. There's no link with winning as far as I know.
 

FeatheredFrenzy

New member
Joined
Nov 15, 2009
Messages
179
MBTI Type
ISFJ
Yeah, maybe not then. I know very few ESTJs, so not really going on much there. But they're exceptional at what they do. Maybe it's more of a work ethic that I'm noticing.
 

sticker

New member
Joined
Jan 16, 2010
Messages
135
MBTI Type
ISTJ
Enneagram
6w5
How does it feel like to be a female ESTJ? Have you met any female ISTJs and what similarities/differences are there?
Many people on here are guessing that I'm either ESTJ or ISTJ and I'm curious as to how different they might be, especially since I seem to be more expressive than most ISTJs (like my dad, who is really stoic and I have never seen him cry before) but still relate more to introverts on most of the other stuff.
And... it's rare to find female xSTJs online or offline, or at seems like it for me, so I can't really find any HUGE similarities between anyone and I... Also, I don't seem to fit into society as well as they portray SJs to be, kinda like an oddball so I was wondering how much gender role is affecting that or if it affects that at all.
Thanks!
 

EJCC

The Devil of TypoC
Joined
Aug 29, 2008
Messages
19,129
MBTI Type
ESTJ
Enneagram
1w9
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
How does it feel like to be a female ESTJ? Have you met any female ISTJs and what similarities/differences are there?
My cousin (a sophomore? in high school) is an ISTJ and a girl. I'm a WHOLE LOT sillier than her. I think she brings out the Ne in me - I'll be making silly jokes, and she'll just raise an eyebrow at me, or shake her head. Also, her sense of humor is darker - like a less weird version of NT humor, I think. Her beliefs are also, I think, deeper held than mine are, which has less to do with the beliefs and more to do with her personality; i.e. it seems like many of her beliefs are so deeply held that she can't express them to the extent that she feels them, and therefore if you disagree with her, you CANNOT REASON WITH HER. I have yet to convince her of anything, ever. Whereas, I'd like to think that, no matter how deeply I believe something, given the right amount of evidence to the contrary, from credible sources, I'd change my mind.

Many people on here are guessing that I'm either ESTJ or ISTJ and I'm curious as to how different they might be, especially since I seem to be more expressive than most ISTJs (like my dad, who is really stoic and I have never seen him cry before) but still relate more to introverts on most of the other stuff.
And... it's rare to find female xSTJs online or offline, or at seems like it for me, so I can't really find any HUGE similarities between anyone and I... Also, I don't seem to fit into society as well as they portray SJs to be, kinda like an oddball so I was wondering how much gender role is affecting that or if it affects that at all.
Thanks!
It's probably gender. I've noticed that xSTJ descriptions online are very... manly. There are GREAT BIG HUGE PARAGRAPHS of ESTJ descriptions that I don't even remotely relate to. For example, from personalitypage.com, I relate to this very, VERY well:
their expressions can be taken at face-value, because the ESTJ is extremely straight-forward and honest.
But I don't relate to this:
They have such a clear vision of the way that things should be, that they naturally step into leadership roles. They are self-confident and aggressive.
^This, I think, comes from being female, because I don't naturally step into leadership roles because I'm afraid of failure and/or embarrassing myself, which, I've read somewhere (in a "Men are from mars, women are from venus"-type thing) is more feminine than masculine.

But I'm still definitely an ESTJ. I'm just less aggressive, and (depending on who you talk to) a warmer and friendlier person than one would expect an ESTJ to be. Gender affects it, as does how I was raised. If I were you, I'd try to break it down function-wise, or into the most universal of type descriptions.
 

Little Linguist

Striving for balance
Joined
Jun 23, 2008
Messages
6,880
MBTI Type
xNFP
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
You are awesome. Just came here to tell you that. And that I love this thread.

(When I have a question, I will definitely come here :D).
 

sticker

New member
Joined
Jan 16, 2010
Messages
135
MBTI Type
ISTJ
Enneagram
6w5
My cousin (a sophomore? in high school) is an ISTJ and a girl. I'm a WHOLE LOT sillier than her. I think she brings out the Ne in me - I'll be making silly jokes, and she'll just raise an eyebrow at me, or shake her head. Also, her sense of humor is darker - like a less weird version of NT humor, I think. Her beliefs are also, I think, deeper held than mine are, which has less to do with the beliefs and more to do with her personality; i.e. it seems like many of her beliefs are so deeply held that she can't express them to the extent that she feels them, and therefore if you disagree with her, you CANNOT REASON WITH HER. I have yet to convince her of anything, ever. Whereas, I'd like to think that, no matter how deeply I believe something, given the right amount of evidence to the contrary, from credible sources, I'd change my mind.
Ah, I think I see what's wrong. When I am the one sprouting the jokes, I'm the one being silly. However, when my friends make silly jokes or rebutt one of my jokes, I end up being the one who shakes my head! (Well, half smiling) As for opinions, I do get stubborn most of the times. I blame them for not being able to change my mind, it's not my fault they aren't giving me enough evidence or don't sound convincing enough. :whistling: *hides*

It's probably gender. I've noticed that xSTJ descriptions online are very... manly. There are GREAT BIG HUGE PARAGRAPHS of ESTJ descriptions that I don't even remotely relate to. For example, from personalitypage.com, I relate to this very, VERY well:
their expressions can be taken at face-value, because the ESTJ is extremely straight-forward and honest.

But I don't relate to this:
They have such a clear vision of the way that things should be, that they naturally step into leadership roles. They are self-confident and aggressive.

^This, I think, comes from being female, because I don't naturally step into leadership roles because I'm afraid of failure and/or embarrassing myself, which, I've read somewhere (in a "Men are from mars, women are from venus"-type thing) is more feminine than masculine.
My goodness, I fully relate to what you said about yourself! :eek: I am very direct in speech and expressions, I find it too hard, unnatural and dishonest to mask my emotions when interacting with others. Because of that, I'm totally not stolid at all. In fact, when provoked, my emotional outburst can rival that of an Fe's. (Probably learnt that from my hot-tempered mum. :p)
Leadership wise, I would very much love it if someone else capable enough is leading because I'm afraid of messing things up and also because I'm plain lazy.

But I'm still definitely an ESTJ. I'm just less aggressive, and (depending on who you talk to) a warmer and friendlier person than one would expect an ESTJ to be. Gender affects it, as does how I was raised. If I were you, I'd try to break it down function-wise, or into the most universal of type descriptions.
I can't relate to 3/4 of the profile types they have for ISTJs, the only parts that I agree with was placing high stakes in security. The profile that I relate to the most so far is this:
The Enigmatic ISTp - Wikisocion
I heard that socionic's ITSp is equivalent to MBTI's ISTJ, though I'm not sure how similar they are.

Thanks for clearing most of the stuff up, I guess I'll start a new thread asking more xSTJs to clear up on incorrect stereotypes attached to those typings tomorrow... (It's 3:30am over here currently, you see. :))

Have a nice day! ^^
 

Tamske

Writing...
Joined
Oct 22, 2009
Messages
1,764
MBTI Type
ENTP
A question for the female ESTJs...

An ESTJ young woman (my main character, indeed) has fallen in love with a nice ISFJ. She is almost sure she's in love herself. She thinks he's in love with her, but she's very unsure about that.
The ISFJ is her friend now. She doesn't want to lose that relationship by beginning a love one.

Will she try to give hints and make him guess she's interested? - like a Feeler does?
Or will she just go to him and say "I've fallen in love with you."? - despite a firmly-rooted "the man takes the initiative" tradition?
 
Top