[ESTJ] Ask an ESTJ!

[EJCC]

I haven't noticed you having to backpedal much so far

This is true. Must be a good sign!

Even though I can't think of a good example of that happening to me -- I just thought of an example of something similar, and also an example of immature ESTJs and how they act:
When I was in middle school thru early high school, everyone thought I was so arrogant. Not just because of my unconstrained Te (i.e. feeling like my opinion was the only opinion and everyone else was SO FREAKING WRONG), but because I would occasionally bring up how much teachers liked me, or how good my grades were, or where I ranked in the class, or things that people complimented me on. Everyone thought I was insecure, or trying to compensate for something. But what it really was, was something similar to what you were asking about -- i.e. stating things with such matter-of-factness and certainty. See, everything I was saying had been told to me directly by people I trusted, e.g. my parents, professors. It wasn't that I was arrogant; I had just been told how smart I was so often that I took it as fact. Also, I loved being complimented, and because I was naive I thought I was sharing the joy by sharing those details, just like any other cool story I would want to share. Either that, or I would try and advise people based on my experience being teacher's pet, etc. But people weren't all that friendly towards that behavior, obviously!

On the whole, would you say that you guys tend to do more saying what you mean long-term/choosing your words carefully and thinking about them before you speak; or more thinking aloud, somewhat making it up as you go along? Or does that vary quite a bit from individual ESTJ to individual?

I do much, much better at everything when I bounce my ideas off people. I'm not all that good at choosing my words carefully and the only times when I am really and truly deliberate about what I'm saying is when I know that I'm walking on eggshells with someone. When a person is mad at me, and I'm trying to reason with them and/or explain where I'm coming from, I practically sound like a Ti type. But that's really only as a last resort, since it's so difficult for me to be that deliberate in what I do in my everyday life.

I'm not sure if I'm interpreting your question correctly -- I mean, if I answered it literally, I would say that I don't know which way I "do better" with, since I hardly give the other method a chance -- but I would say that in general the way that I make the best decisions is bouncing ideas off of other people, or at least, talking at them and hoping they'll chip in and/or fact-check me. I don't know how many other ESTJs are like this, since so many ESTJs are stuck in the immature Te-focused phase that I described earlier, but if I really have no idea how something works, my first instinct is to ask someone who knows, i.e. to seek out an expert. Maybe this is my dominant Social instinct combined with Si, but I always -- and I mean ALWAYS -- know where I rank in groups of people, in any category you can think of, so if I need to make a big decision and I don't feel prepared to make it, not only will I want to find someone who will prepare me for it, but I will have a first choice, second choice, and third choice for people to turn to.

Thoughts from [MENTION=1988]sui generis[/MENTION] and/or [MENTION=14710]feisty[/MENTION]?

p.s. What do you mean by "saying what you mean long-term"?

 

[feisty]

See, everything I was saying had been told to me directly by people I trusted, e.g. my parents, professors. It wasn't that I was arrogant; I had just been told how smart I was so often that I took it as fact.

People STILL think I'm arrogant. I don't necessarily mean to come off that way but honestly, I think I'm a pretty awesome person, and if you wanna know how awesome I am, just ask me, I'll tell you.

I do much, much better at everything when I bounce my ideas off people. I'm not all that good at choosing my words carefully and the only times when I am really and truly deliberate about what I'm saying is when I know that I'm walking on eggshells with someone. When a person is mad at me, and I'm trying to reason with them and/or explain where I'm coming from, I practically sound like a Ti type. But that's really only as a last resort, since it's so difficult for me to be that deliberate in what I do in my everyday life.

Yea I'm not much with the words... I have a large vocabulary and no filter... My jokes are either: very well-received, have piss-poor timing, or just fall by the wayside because no one thinks like me and gets them. But it doesn't stop me from making them or saying how I feel on a subject. I usually talk first, clean up the mess later.

I really do have problems in that I literally have minimal shame and absolutely no filter for things I say. People have to literally tell me when to stop or if I have gone too far. I advise people who don't know me well to do so, because if they say nothing, I'll just ramble right on because I think its funny or necessary.

HOWEVER..... like EJCC (and also probably in a little different way), I do mind what I say around certain people. I am very aware of how I come across to people and I also have a good awareness for how certain people are. The reason that I truly do get along with so many people is because, if I know that I need to deal with someone in a certain way to avoid upsetting them or starting a fight or getting off on a bad note, I will tailor my personality/humor/ to fit with theirs. It's not in a fake way, because I'm still myself, it's just in a way that maybe I don't over-do it or maybe I take note of what I'm saying rather than just fuckin off not caring what they think. Particularly, I employ this strategy with people whom I have to work along side of, so as to not make it terrible for myself at work.

 

[SilkRoad]

p.s. What do you mean by "saying what you mean long-term"?

Basically I mean: saying something like a statement of fact and it still being true 5 minutes later, or 10, or a few days, weeks, months or years.

I operate more on the basis that if I say something aloud, I've probably given it at least some thought (maybe an awful lot) and it's probably a fairly established opinion (though obviously this depends on circumstances.) If I'm still mulling something over I'll make that fairly clear. I'll say things like "I'm thinking about doing this and this, but I'm really not sure...here are some pros and cons." Or "The situation looks like this to me, but I just don't know for sure yet." So I tend to not take it that well if people say something that sounds extremely definite (ie. "this is how it is", "this is what I am doing, I have made a decision") and then a few days later you follow up with them about it, and they sort of...look at you like you're crazy and they never said that; or they say something that contradicts the first statement completely, and subsequently continue to flip-flop back and forth; etc. I do understand that circumstances change and life changes and things aren't always set in stone. But if everything a person says or "decides" is like writing on water or whistling in the wind, how do you ever know where you stand with them?

I think so far I've tended to have this problem the most with ESFPs and ENFPs, as a general thing. I've known a few, or more than a few, who throw things out there but they make it sound like it's basically a done deal. Then a few days later it means absolutely nothing. I admit it drives me crazy, especially if it's something that affects me and I start sort of...working around them and what they've said, to that end. There have been a few unusual and notable occasions where because of the way things have played out, it has been very nearly as though the person lied to me. It can really affect my trust. On this site a few ENFPs in particular have tried to explain to me how/why this happens, and I do understand it better but it still gets to me. (Especially if it has to do with the person's feelings about or perspective on me.) Because from my perspective it means that if you do this a great deal, what you say is untrustworthy. (On the other hand, I'm pretty sure some of them think I'm some sort of...robot.)

Obviously the thing to do is to observe people's behaviour very closely, rather than paying much attention to what they say. But I don't like the feeling of having to ignore what people say and consider it meaningless, and just watch them like a hawk. When you get to the point with someone where you're just nodding along, almost tuning them out and thinking "well, there's no point in taking any of this seriously, I'll just wait and see what you actually do" - it's not very good for the friendship, I don't think.

I would imagine though that you go through this process differently from ExxPs, even if you tend to do the same thing with throwing out ideas and sounding more definite than you feel. I remember [MENTION=7111]fidelia[/MENTION] talking about how her ESTJ often sounded very certain of himself particularly when he actually felt UNcertain, though.


EDIT: You mentioned yourself that things like family background have an effect too beyond type. I'm very much a product of my family. I am not 100% sure of everyone's types but I'm almost 100% sure we're all IxxJs. My dad basically NEVER says something he doesn't hold as a true and firm opinion that he's thought about thoroughly. My brother would probably just keep his mouth shut rather than expose himself over anything uncertain or have to backtrack. I will talk about my uncertainties, but acknowledge them as such, not make them sound definite and then change the goalposts. I think my mom is a bit more inclined to think aloud, but not to an extreme. I also tend to have close friends who are similar to this. So...yeah. People saying something like it's cold hard fact and then going off and doing the exact opposite, that was traumatic for me.

 

[SilkRoad]

I really do have problems in that I literally have minimal shame and absolutely no filter for things I say. People have to literally tell me when to stop or if I have gone too far. I advise people who don't know me well to do so, because if they say nothing, I'll just ramble right on because I think its funny or necessary.

The ESTJ I used to know IRL actually asked me once to tell him if he was about to screw things up or put his foot in it. (I'd already given him a bit of a lecture about hurting someone's feelings.) That was kind of funny, actually.

[MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION] (or anyone!), another question...sorry to bombard you but some of the interesting things you said led on to other questions for me. When you mentioned that you used to come off to people in school as arrogant or boastful, or even insecure. What about when an ESTJ actually IS really insecure? (They must exist ) Would they come across as even more ultra-confident to hide it? Or would something else give it away? What do you think?

 

[entropie]

it is most often true that those people who show the greatest strength in security to the outside are the worst with it on the inside

 

[EJCC]

Basically I mean: saying something like a statement of fact and it still being true 5 minutes later, or 10, or a few days, weeks, months or years.

I operate more on the basis that if I say something aloud, I've probably given it at least some thought (maybe an awful lot) and it's probably a fairly established opinion (though obviously this depends on circumstances.) If I'm still mulling something over I'll make that fairly clear. I'll say things like "I'm thinking about doing this and this, but I'm really not sure...here are some pros and cons." Or "The situation looks like this to me, but I just don't know for sure yet." So I tend to not take it that well if people say something that sounds extremely definite (ie. "this is how it is", "this is what I am doing, I have made a decision") and then a few days later you follow up with them about it, and they sort of...look at you like you're crazy and they never said that; or they say something that contradicts the first statement completely, and subsequently continue to flip-flop back and forth; etc. I do understand that circumstances change and life changes and things aren't always set in stone. But if everything a person says or "decides" is like writing on water or whistling in the wind, how do you ever know where you stand with them?

You seem to be operating under the assumption that NFPs and xSTJs tend to say things that they don't consider to be true, and state them as true, which implies a bit of dishonesty. But for the record: that assumption is false. I'm not sure how it is with NFPs, but I can tell you for sure that everything you hear an ESTJ say regarding their opinion of something is their 100% honest and unembellished opinion. But the thing is -- and this relates to everything that we've just been talking about -- ESTJs just HATE uncertainty. We hate not having an opinion. So we make our opinions based on whatever facts we have. If you want a guaranteed way to see what an ESTJ's Ne looks like, ask them for their opinion and/or information about something they have almost no experience with (i.e. something that they could safely say they have no opinion on) and I can guarantee you that they will look it up and get back to you IMMEDIATELY with all the information they've found.

So I guess I would say that it's just like physics: an ESTJ's opinion will remain their opinion unless acted upon by a better supported opinion. Our opinions are always evolving, just like everyone else's. So I guess I would say that not only would asking for an ESTJ's permanent opinion be impossible, but it would be an impossible assumption, i.e. that anyone's opinions could ever be so concrete. For example, back when all my friends used Facebook Flair, one of my friends had a button that said "Once you are my friend, you will always be my friend", and as sweet as that was, I thought it was ridiculous, because if one of my friends were to betray me, my opinion would be forever changed and I couldn't be their friend anymore.

As for your concern about where you stand with them: just ask! I have a friend who is deeply insecure in a particular way, i.e. that she worries that everyone secretly hates her even if they say that they like her. (She's a 2w3.) But one reason why she has remained my friend for so long is that she knows without a shadow of a doubt where she stands with me. I am an open book. She can ask me if she's being annoying or not, she can ask me anything, and I will tell her, and my certainty (and it is certainty, 100%) is reassuring.

I wonder if some of your worry comes from Ni-related concern of people not entirely being what they seem. Te/Fi/Ne/Si users (i.e. STJs and NFPs) are in my opinion the most authentic types. They are what they seem -- except regarding their deepest feelings about values and such, but I digress. We don't sugarcoat things, we tell you our opinions. The only second-guessing you have to do is if we haven't done enough research and are spouting off unsupported facts -- in which case, we welcome your corrections. STJs -- from my experience -- would much rather be correct than be the winner (because if other STJs are like me, they find being incorrect one of the most embarrassing faults in the world), so I agree with [MENTION=14710]feisty[/MENTION] in that regard.

I remember [MENTION=7111]fidelia[/MENTION] talking about how her ESTJ often sounded very certain of himself particularly when he actually felt UNcertain, though.

There's an element of self-reassurance, there. It's like I was saying before -- I solve my problems best when I'm talking through them. So if I'm not sure what to do, I might think out loud regarding a possible direction I can go, and the certainty reassures me. One of the best reassurances in a time of uncertainty is having a battle plan -- so reiterating that battle plan is definitely a coping mechanism, absolutely.

EDIT: You mentioned yourself that things like family background have an effect too beyond type. I'm very much a product of my family. I am not 100% sure of everyone's types but I'm almost 100% sure we're all IxxJs. My dad basically NEVER says something he doesn't hold as a true and firm opinion that he's thought about thoroughly. My brother would probably just keep his mouth shut rather than expose himself over anything uncertain or have to backtrack. I will talk about my uncertainties, but acknowledge them as such, not make them sound definite and then change the goalposts. I think my mom is a bit more inclined to think aloud, but not to an extreme. I also tend to have close friends who are similar to this. So...yeah. People saying something like it's cold hard fact and then going off and doing the exact opposite, that was traumatic for me.

I may be a little better with this because I have two Ti parents and they've trained me to include qualifiers and not use statements like "always" and "never" -- which I might otherwise have done -- but the thing is, as traumatic as that perceived flakiness might be, I would much rather do that than do what some Ti types do and stick with something they know is wrong just because they stated an opinion on it earlier. NFPs may come across as "worse" than STJs in this regard, but it's the same basic concept. The difference might be that STJs (especially type 1!!) are more embarrassed by it, even if they don't show it.

 

[SilkRoad]

You seem to be operating under the assumption that NFPs and xSTJs tend to say things that they don't consider to be true, and state them as true, which implies a bit of dishonesty. But for the record: that assumption is false. I'm not sure how it is with NFPs, but I can tell you for sure that everything you hear an ESTJ say regarding their opinion of something is their 100% honest and unembellished opinion. But the thing is -- and this relates to everything that we've just been talking about -- ESTJs just HATE uncertainty. We hate not having an opinion. So we make our opinions based on whatever facts we have. If you want a guaranteed way to see what an ESTJ's Ne looks like, ask them for their opinion and/or information about something they have almost no experience with (i.e. something that they could safely say they have no opinion on) and I can guarantee you that they will look it up and get back to you IMMEDIATELY with all the information they've found.

I understand the thing about wanting certainty. That does make sense to me, although personally I don't care about having an opinion about everything (I don't have much of an opinion if I don't care). But I wasn't trying to say that it was about dishonesty for any type. I also understand things like changing your mind or your perspective if you get new information. That can be necessary and right. What I find very unsettling is when someone states something as absolute truth in one moment - and I'm sure that in that moment it IS absolute truth to them - but then a couple of days later, that "absolute truth" has changed to a totally different and even opposite opinion. I am more used to this (to a certain extent) with a type like ENFP. There's more of a tendency to explore different options, to say things as a way of trying them on for size, but it can change very quickly. To someone like me, anyway. I don't know if an ESTJ is likely to say one thing as their absolute truth one day, and then say something completely different a few days later. With the Ne-Fi it seems like the "truth" is based around the feeling in the moment. THat's probably an oversimplifcation and I'm probably going to annoy any xNFPs who read this. But that's how it comes across.

I have an xNFP friend who repeatedly gets involved with guys from the same culture, usually in the most precipitate and dramatic fashion imaginable. She's sworn several times that she'd never take this approach again, or that she'd never love again, or that the one she was currently with was IT. A few months later, literally, she'd be involved with another guy in an almost identical way, again. End result: I tune out much of what she says and just wait to see what happens next. I ended up in a couple of situations surrounding this where I felt somewhat used and betrayed (ie. she asked me for advice and even financial help but didn't tell me what was really going on.) So I don't know how much choice I have.

Sorry, I'm not talking about ESTJs at this point, but it's just to illustrate why I handle the "constantly changing truth" thing badly. You may believe something fully in the moment, but if you don't stick with most of those things for more than five minutes, how do I know when to trust what you say, except to ignore what you say and watch what you do?

I'm far from perfect, I'm not trying to set myself up as such. But in such a case, say if I'd had my heart broken - in the moment it might feel like "I will never ever get over this, I can never love again." However, I'm not going to go around saying it. Because I know that opinion is probably going to change once I eventually move past the hurt. At the very least I don't want to look like an idiot. I'll keep that aspect to myself and work through it and then see if I feel like loving again.

I have a hard time understanding why people - just PEOPLE, not types - can't acknowledge that their opinion is currently in an evolving state, or that they don't know about their subject, or that they might change their minds. Instead of saying "this is how it is. This is absolutely how I feel and have always felt" and then a week later they say "this is how it is. This is absolutely how I feel and have always felt" - but, um, what they're saying is totally different from a week earlier. Is there a feeling that you're showing weakness by showing any uncertainty or indefiniteness?

I wonder if some of your worry comes from Ni-related concern of people not entirely being what they seem. Te/Fi/Ne/Si users (i.e. STJs and NFPs) are in my opinion the most authentic types. They are what they seem -- except regarding their deepest feelings about values and such, but I digress. We don't sugarcoat things, we tell you our opinions. The only second-guessing you have to do is if we haven't done enough research and are spouting off unsupported facts -- in which case, we welcome your corrections. STJs -- from my experience -- would much rather be correct than be the winner (because if other STJs are like me, they find being incorrect one of the most embarrassing faults in the world), so I agree with [MENTION=14710]feisty[/MENTION] in that regard.

There's an element of self-reassurance, there. It's like I was saying before -- I solve my problems best when I'm talking through them. So if I'm not sure what to do, I might think out loud regarding a possible direction I can go, and the certainty reassures me. One of the best reassurances in a time of uncertainty is having a battle plan -- so reiterating that battle plan is definitely a coping mechanism, absolutely.

Yeah, it's true. I do worry about people not being what they seem. I think people very often represent themselves as something that they're not, for their own selfish ends. It's kind of a complex I have at this point. Maybe I've witnessed it too much. I haven't experienced hideous betrayals personally, but I have certainly felt betrayed and deeply wounded and I have seen people undergo much worse betrayals than anything I've experienced. I don't really believe that there is more than a very small number of people worth fully trusting, I'm afraid. Perhaps it's the type 6 as well. However, INFJs generally seem to have issues with this sort of thing - coming to feel that they can't trust people who always seem to be changing the goalposts, for instance. We don't care for what comes across as unreliability, even if it isn't intended as such.

I agree those that xSTJs seem like particularly reliable types for the most part. I probably have some issues with how extroverts generally express themselves. I think regardless of type other than extroversion, extroverts are more likely to just throw something out there to see how it sounds/feels. But because xSTJs do seem reliable, partly for that it surprised me to learn that they may sound definite about things for the sake of sounding definite (if that is indeed how it is), and not because they ARE definite about them.

 

[Eilonwy]

Also, I love DIY and knitting and decorating -- because they're artistic outlets and they're very useful and impressive and there's just something about learning a craft, you know? Something about getting good at doing things with your own hands. The self-suffiency ideal has a lot of appeal to me.

I envy and admire you. I don't have the patience to knit or do similar crafts. My poor mom tried. She also tried to get me to help her refinish furniture, paint the house, etc. I did what I could but...well. I did better helping with yard work (even though I hate it), cleaning the garage, helping around the house--things that didn't take more than a few hours.

I'll be back with more questions! Thanks for doing this!

 

[EJCC]

I understand the thing about wanting certainty. That does make sense to me, although personally I don't care about having an opinion about everything (I don't have much of an opinion if I don't care). But I wasn't trying to say that it was about dishonesty for any type. I also understand things like changing your mind or your perspective if you get new information. That can be necessary and right. What I find very unsettling is when someone states something as absolute truth in one moment - and I'm sure that in that moment it IS absolute truth to them - but then a couple of days later, that "absolute truth" has changed to a totally different and even opposite opinion. I am more used to this (to a certain extent) with a type like ENFP. There's more of a tendency to explore different options, to say things as a way of trying them on for size, but it can change very quickly. To someone like me, anyway. I don't know if an ESTJ is likely to say one thing as their absolute truth one day, and then say something completely different a few days later. With the Ne-Fi it seems like the "truth" is based around the feeling in the moment. THat's probably an oversimplifcation and I'm probably going to annoy any xNFPs who read this. But that's how it comes across.

I know that xNFPs do tend to be a whole lot flakier than xSTJs, in a lot of ways -- so I'm thinking maybe a lot of the difference is that the xSTJ isn't as impulsive and in the moment and therefore has fewer times that they'll want to change paths? Also, I think it comes from Si being a much more exact function than Ne. Even if an xSTJ were to make exactly the same statements as an xNFP and then change their minds later, it might seem less like they were trying it on for size because they'd make it very obvious that they fit the new opinion into the old framework? I dunno -- appropriately enough, I'm thinking out loud here.

I have an xNFP friend who repeatedly gets involved with guys from the same culture, usually in the most precipitate and dramatic fashion imaginable. She's sworn several times that she'd never take this approach again, or that she'd never love again, or that the one she was currently with was IT. A few months later, literally, she'd be involved with another guy in an almost identical way, again. End result: I tune out much of what she says and just wait to see what happens next. I ended up in a couple of situations surrounding this where I felt somewhat used and betrayed (ie. she asked me for advice and even financial help but didn't tell me what was really going on.) So I don't know how much choice I have.

I think I see the difference that you're talking about now, in more detail. There's a lot of losing touch with Si, going on in that behavior. A lot of being in the moment and forgetting past experience -- which is something that xSTJs are rarely guilty of!

Sorry, I'm not talking about ESTJs at this point, but it's just to illustrate why I handle the "constantly changing truth" thing badly. You may believe something fully in the moment, but if you don't stick with most of those things for more than five minutes, how do I know when to trust what you say, except to ignore what you say and watch what you do?

I see what you're getting at. I have an ENxP friend and an INFP friend who are both similar to the example you gave. The INFP will drive me nuts from acting like that -- I actually vented about her earlier in the thread, somewhere -- but I'm used to the ENxP since I've been her friend for so long.

It's interesting -- I hadn't thought of these differences before, because I had only thought of the similarities. Yes, xSTJ opinions are also in the moment, and yes, they see those opinions as being absolute fact, but they're also much, much better about giving logical background on those opinions, even if that logical background is "I read it in the National Enquirer" -- whereas an xNFP might go "I just know that it's true, okay???" or otherwise take it personally. Which is one reason why I tend to get into arguments with xNFPs all the time -- because when they have patterns of behavior like the one you described, I may end up getting frustrated and confronting them about it. Not in a hostile way, but reminding them of their history in behaving that way, how it's never worked and why keep trying. It doesn't always go well, and when it does fail, I end up resorting to exactly what you've been doing and distancing myself from them, watching and seeing what happens, with the difference being that as I'm watching and waiting, they know exactly where I stand on their behavior, so they may discuss the issue with me in more depth after the behavior fails for the umpteenth time and they start to see that I'm right.

I'm far from perfect, I'm not trying to set myself up as such. But in such a case, say if I'd had my heart broken - in the moment it might feel like "I will never ever get over this, I can never love again." However, I'm not going to go around saying it. Because I know that opinion is probably going to change once I eventually move past the hurt. At the very least I don't want to look like an idiot. I'll keep that aspect to myself and work through it and then see if I feel like loving again.

This does sound like an introvert thing. Or even just a personal thing. I have INFJ friends who LOVE to vent exactly like that when bad things happen. (Not necessarily venting to everyone, but still venting like that). And that might be another way that xSTJs are more palatable to you -- we hide those feelings most of the time! If I feel like I can't ever love again, I may tell you once, in private, and may cry a little, but that'll be it.

I have a hard time understanding why people - just PEOPLE, not types - can't acknowledge that their opinion is currently in an evolving state, or that they don't know about their subject, or that they might change their minds. Instead of saying "this is how it is. This is absolutely how I feel and have always felt" and then a week later they say "this is how it is. This is absolutely how I feel and have always felt" - but, um, what they're saying is totally different from a week earlier. Is there a feeling that you're showing weakness by showing any uncertainty or indefiniteness?

I feel like the bolded is an incorrect assumption? Unless you've actually heard people say that, in which case I take it back. But I don't think any xNFP or xSTJ would presume that about their feelings about a topic -- because they're very aware of when they've replaced one opinion with another.

Yeah, it's true. I do worry about people not being what they seem. I think people very often represent themselves as something that they're not, for their own selfish ends. It's kind of a complex I have at this point. Maybe I've witnessed it too much. I haven't experienced hideous betrayals personally, but I have certainly felt betrayed and deeply wounded and I have seen people undergo much worse betrayals than anything I've experienced. I don't really believe that there is more than a very small number of people worth fully trusting, I'm afraid. Perhaps it's the type 6 as well. However, INFJs generally seem to have issues with this sort of thing - coming to feel that they can't trust people who always seem to be changing the goalposts, for instance. We don't care for what comes across as unreliability, even if it isn't intended as such.

I wonder if this is why I'm friends with so many INFJs? One of my theories of what makes for lasting friendships is that the best sets of friends soothe each other's neuroses. And in a perfect situation, INFJs and ESTJs balance each other out in just the right way, in that regard.

Either way -- I understand that worry, especially if you've had sad experiences with that. Nonetheless, I would say that everything you've been seeing with xNFPs is nothing more than the emotional equivalent of flakiness. They aren't actively something different from what you see -- all their certainty is still their certainty -- but just like any other flaky person of any other type, you can't take them at their word that they'll do a particular thing at a particular time. So as long as you expect flakiness, your expectations are met. Like how I expect my INTP dad to be 10 minutes late to everything. Same concept? I know that's probably not what you want to hear but if trust is a problem, then the problem may be solved by trusting them to do what you have seen them do historically.

I agree those that xSTJs seem like particularly reliable types for the most part. I probably have some issues with how extroverts generally express themselves. I think regardless of type other than extroversion, extroverts are more likely to just throw something out there to see how it sounds/feels. But because xSTJs do seem reliable, partly for that it surprised me to learn that they may sound definite about things for the sake of sounding definite (if that is indeed how it is), and not because they ARE definite about them.

True. We often make ourselves definite about things -- like repeating a mantra.
More thinking out loud: I think another notable difference might be that the sorts of topics that xNFPs think out loud about might be the sorts of things that xSTJs don't. For example, the situation I vented about before, regarding my INFP friend, irritated me because she said she'd do something on a moral basis and then rationalized herself out of it and didn't think it was a big deal. The flakiness I could handle, but the backing out of her values I just couldn't figure out. xSTJs, I think, can backpedal on most opinions, but value-based and emotional statements are where we draw the line. So, you wouldn't be as likely to be in a situation where an xSTJ was an emotional burden on you, like the xNFP was.

 

[SilkRoad]

Thank you so much for thinking all this through and writing it out! I really appreciate that and also you not getting annoyed.

I feel like the bolded is an incorrect assumption? Unless you've actually heard people say that, in which case I take it back. But I don't think any xNFP or xSTJ would presume that about their feelings about a topic -- because they're very aware of when they've replaced one opinion with another.

Well, I have heard people say things like that...but from different types. Two of the notable examples I can think of are the xNFP I've mentioned, and an ESFJ I used to live with. So...basically I think it's isn't VERY type-related. Maybe a bit. But mainly it's self-awareness related and that can be totally separate from type. It is something that drives me nuts though. I mean, when it's extreme. When one day they say something like "I MUST BE IN A RELATIONSHIP!!! MY LIFE WILL ALWAYS BE LONELY, INCOMPLETE AND BROKEN IF I AM NOT!!!" And not just once...this seemed to be how they felt for quite a long time at least. Plus, so much of their life and actions were directed toward finding someone and getting into that relationship, even to the point of seeming kind of "desperate". Then some time later (probably when they're in a relationship and it's not working out quite how they expected!) they'll be like "You know, I was never the type of girl who NEEDED to be in a relationship. I've always been so independent, I loved my single life and was perfectly fine on my own." Sigh. Sure, we all can make over-emotional statements in the moment which are a bit...too much or not reflective of our overall approach to life. But this just seems like, wow, you've got a really bad memory, or you really like rewriting the past. The ESFJ was actually extremely prone to that. She'd tell you about stuff that you'd supposedly said to her (usually MEAN, CRUEL stuff) and you knew perfectly well you never had. And you also knew that when she said "oh, Peter? I was never really into him, just saw him like a friend", she'd actually been chasing him like insanity all over the place so that you were almost embarrassed for her.

Upshot: this is probably more about self-awarenes than type.

More thinking out loud: I think another notable difference might be that the sorts of topics that xNFPs think out loud about might be the sorts of things that xSTJs don't. For example, the situation I vented about before, regarding my INFP friend, irritated me because she said she'd do something on a moral basis and then rationalized herself out of it and didn't think it was a big deal. The flakiness I could handle, but the backing out of her values I just couldn't figure out. xSTJs, I think, can backpedal on most opinions, but value-based and emotional statements are where we draw the line. So, you wouldn't be as likely to be in a situation where an xSTJ was an emotional burden on you, like the xNFP was.

Yeah, I think you're very right about this. And those emotional statements, and what may seem like a reversal of them, are more like to affect me as I'm an F. If a close friend seems to be bleeding emotionally with despair all over the place, and I'm trying to help her through and be comforting etc, while also hoping that she's not going to get herself in a similar state again any time soon - and then a few months later she goes off and throws herself into an identical situation with another emotional rollercoaster, just as she swore she WOULDN'T; that's going to be more traumatic for me than (for instance) an xSTJ changing their opinion on a more factual basis.

Plus...although I don't think people should use their background, etc as an excuse for their behaviour (especially if it is really bad behaviour that affects others) - it can explain a lot. And the friends I've described have tended to come from rather unstable backgrounds, sometimes very unstable. My background is pretty stable on the other hand. So it's probably harder for them to regulate their emotions, behave in a stable manner etc. I mean, I find that hard too at times, so... I guess sometimes part of being understanding, and being a friend, is realising that you will eventually reach a point where you CAN'T understand, and kind of respectfully stepping back a bit at that point. YOu will never fully understand what another human being goes through and especially if they have a very different background from yours.

 

[EJCC]

Thank you so much for thinking all this through and writing it out! I really appreciate that and also you not getting annoyed.

Totally fine! I just realized today, actually, that the reason why I'm so good about people not being what they seem, and not trusting what people say, is partially from being friends with so many INFJs. Growing up with a mom who was convinced that everything that went wrong in her career was because her entire university department was out to get her because she has a higher level of education than them (and having friends who hear "class, do your review for tomorrow" as "you, INFJ, are the worst student I have ever had and if you don't memorize absolutely everything by tomorrow you will fail this class"), has trained me to just take a deep breath and take everything they say with a grain of salt. In a way, it's everything you were worried about seeing from xNFPs, that you weren't actually seeing.

In short: I'm not mad because I understand how you feel.

Well, I have heard people say things like that...but from different types. Two of the notable examples I can think of are the xNFP I've mentioned, and an ESFJ I used to live with. So...basically I think it's isn't VERY type-related. Maybe a bit. But mainly it's self-awareness related and that can be totally separate from type. It is something that drives me nuts though. I mean, when it's extreme. When one day they say something like "I MUST BE IN A RELATIONSHIP!!! MY LIFE WILL ALWAYS BE LONELY, INCOMPLETE AND BROKEN IF I AM NOT!!!" And not just once...this seemed to be how they felt for quite a long time at least. Plus, so much of their life and actions were directed toward finding someone and getting into that relationship, even to the point of seeming kind of "desperate". Then some time later (probably when they're in a relationship and it's not working out quite how they expected!) they'll be like "You know, I was never the type of girl who NEEDED to be in a relationship. I've always been so independent, I loved my single life and was perfectly fine on my own." Sigh. Sure, we all can make over-emotional statements in the moment which are a bit...too much or not reflective of our overall approach to life. But this just seems like, wow, you've got a really bad memory, or you really like rewriting the past.

That's why I second-guessed the bolded statement, earlier. Nothing you just said implies that they were remembering things any differently. There was never a statement in there that said "I would never say anything like that because I have always felt like I didn't need to be in a relationship" -- they said "I guess I didn't need a relationship after all, I guess I was strong enough to be without one all this time". I actually relate to that thought process, even if I don't tell everyone about it. The first statement you quoted, yes, was based on the feelings of the moment, but the second statement was directly in reference to the previous one, rationally looking back on that emotional phase and retroactively invalidating it. ESTJs do the same thing. Every time you've heard an ESTJ invalidate previous feelings of theirs -- "Oh, that time in my life wasn't so bad, it was more funny than anything else" or "I don't know why I thought that was such a big deal; I didn't realize that my life was easy compared to other people's and that I shouldn't have been complaining" -- is pretty much just the same.

The ESFJ was actually extremely prone to that. She'd tell you about stuff that you'd supposedly said to her (usually MEAN, CRUEL stuff) and you knew perfectly well you never had. And you also knew that when she said "oh, Peter? I was never really into him, just saw him like a friend", she'd actually been chasing him like insanity all over the place so that you were almost embarrassed for her.

Makes more sense from an ESFJ, I think. I would associate that behavior more with Fe than Fi.

Upshot: this is probably more about self-awarenes than type.

Yeah, I think self-awareness and family background both have something to do with it. But I also stick with what I've been saying.

 

[SilkRoad]

Totally fine! I just realized today, actually, that the reason why I'm so good about people not being what they seem, and not trusting what people say, is partially from being friends with so many INFJs. Growing up with a mom who was convinced that everything that went wrong in her career was because her entire university department was out to get her because she has a higher level of education than them (and having friends who hear "class, do your review for tomorrow" as "you, INFJ, are the worst student I have ever had and if you don't memorize absolutely everything by tomorrow you will fail this class"), has trained me to just take a deep breath and take everything they say with a grain of salt. In a way, it's everything you were worried about seeing from xNFPs, that you weren't actually seeing.

Yeah, we are a bit paranoid...or more than a bit...believe me, I know what the inside of my head is like and I would NEVER EVER deny that about an INFJ, at least one like me

 

[Eilonwy]

Since there doesn't seem to be any genuine ESFJs on the forum at this time, perhaps you can answer my question. My ESFJ sister has a knack for making me feel like I don't do enough (actually, my ESTJ mom did, too) or don't do it "right". Is this just me and my perception of what they're saying/doing? Or do INFJs seem a bit lazy to ESxJs? My sister likes to list every little task that she's done during the day. When she asks me what I've done in return, it just feels so...not really bragging, but maybe competitive?...to list every little thing I've done in return, so I usually hit the major things and leave out the daily stuff that never really changes. Then I fell like she gets the impression that I do nothing all day. But then I think that maybe it's not about me at all, but more about the fact that she's overloaded and stressed and this is how she conveys this to others. Any insights you can give me?

 

[sculpting]

A knited bunny for the ESTJs and Halla.

PS-I learn so much from this blog! Thank you!

 

[EJCC]

Aw thanks [MENTION=6166]Orobas[/MENTION]!
(p.s. Is that a bunny slipper??? )

Another p.s: I forgot this post --

I envy and admire you. I don't have the patience to knit or do similar crafts. My poor mom tried. She also tried to get me to help her refinish furniture, paint the house, etc. I did what I could but...well. I did better helping with yard work (even though I hate it), cleaning the garage, helping around the house--things that didn't take more than a few hours.

My theory is that crafting skips a generation. If your parents do it and make you do it, then all the fun is taken out of it. My grandmother was an obsessive crafter, but my mom weaseled her way out of learning to knit or crochet (though she still cross-stitched and quilted), and I ended up teaching myself how to knit.

I know so many people who say that they don't have the patience to knit. But -- and maybe this is because I'm a very focused and intense person -- I don't see it as a task that relates to patience. I mean, maybe. But the best way to love knitting, I think, is to use it with either your Se or your Ne or both. Some knitters love to knit for the meditative experience, for the feeling of the yarn in their hands (Se). I knit for the thrill of the puzzle pieces coming together, as the fabric I'm making starts to look more and more like what it's supposed to look like (Ne).

Yeah, we are a bit paranoid...or more than a bit...believe me, I know what the inside of my head is like and I would NEVER EVER deny that about an INFJ, at least one like me

Ok, phew! I actually took a little bit of a leap of faith with that post and took the risk that you might be offended by it. I'm glad you're not, because I didn't mean it that way.

Since there doesn't seem to be any genuine ESFJs on the forum at this time, perhaps you can answer my question.

I would direct you to either [MENTION=9517]Malice[/MENTION] (if she's still around) or [MENTION=4398]Giggly[/MENTION] (even though Giggly's an ISFJ -- because I think ISFJs would be better at answering questions about ESFJs than an ESTJ would be). Nonetheless, I'll see what I can do.

My ESFJ sister has a knack for making me feel like I don't do enough (actually, my ESTJ mom did, too) or don't do it "right". Is this just me and my perception of what they're saying/doing? Or do INFJs seem a bit lazy to ESxJs? My sister likes to list every little task that she's done during the day. When she asks me what I've done in return, it just feels so...not really bragging, but maybe competitive?...to list every little thing I've done in return, so I usually hit the major things and leave out the daily stuff that never really changes. Then I fell like she gets the impression that I do nothing all day. But then I think that maybe it's not about me at all, but more about the fact that she's overloaded and stressed and this is how she conveys this to others. Any insights you can give me?

I think, if you seem lazy, then ESxJs think you're lazy. I doubt that it's about type. If we see you work hard, then we think you're a hard worker. So it's possible that if you haven't been telling her everything you do all day, then she thinks you barely do anything. One thing I've noticed with INxJs (i.e. Ni doms) is that they reeeeally overestimate what's "implied", especially when communicating with Sensors. So if, on your sister's daily litany of accomplished tasks, she mentions the boring everyday things, then if you want to give her a proportional response, I'd suggest you do the same.

I'm not sure if I'm in a position to say whether or not it's competitive, or related to stress, but I think my answer is pretty safe. Thoughts from Giggly et al?

 

[Giggly]

I think, if you seem lazy, then ESxJs think you're lazy. I doubt that it's about type. If we see you work hard, then we think you're a hard worker. So it's possible that if you haven't been telling her everything you do all day, then she thinks you barely do anything. One thing I've noticed with INxJs (i.e. Ni doms) is that they reeeeally overestimate what's "implied", especially when communicating with Sensors. So if, on your sister's daily litany of accomplished tasks, she mentions the boring everyday things, then if you want to give her a proportional response, I'd suggest you do the same.

I'm not sure if I'm in a position to say whether or not it's competitive, or related to stress, but I think my answer is pretty safe. Thoughts from Giggly et al?

This sounds on point to me.

 

[Eilonwy]

One thing I've noticed with INxJs (i.e. Ni doms) is that they reeeeally overestimate what's "implied", especially when communicating with Sensors.

Could you or [MENTION=4398]Giggly[/MENTION] clarify this for me? Are you saying that I may be reading too much into what she says (overestimating what's implied on her side of the conversation)? Or is it that I may be erroneously assuming that she will understand what I've left unsaid (overestimating what's implied on my side of the conversation)? Or perhaps both?

 

[EJCC]

This sounds on point to me.

Yay!

Thanks for stopping by and fact-checking me. Much appreciated!

Could you or [MENTION=4398]Giggly[/MENTION] clarify this for me? Are you saying that I may be reading too much into what she says (overestimating what's implied on her side of the conversation)? Or is it that I may be erroneously assuming that she will understand what I've left unsaid (overestimating what's implied on my side of the conversation)? Or perhaps both?

Both, I think. Mostly the second thing -- i.e. because you've assumed that it's implied that she knows that you have done the everyday things, you don't mention them. But the thing is, if she mentions them, she'll expect you to mention them too, and if you don't, she'll assume instead that you didn't do them -- because if she did her boring everyday tasks and told you about them, why wouldn't you do the same?

That's the Si mindset.

 

[Giggly]

Could you or Giggly clarify this for me? Are you saying that I may be reading too much into what she says (overestimating what's implied on her side of the conversation)? Or is it that I may be erroneously assuming that she will understand what I've left unsaid (overestimating what's implied on my side of the conversation)? Or perhaps both?

I have the same experience with some (not all ) Ni users. They'll either 1. Think I can read their minds and know what they are thinking/feeling. I can't. or 2. They think for me (i.e. think they can read my mind).

 

[Eilonwy]

Both, I think. Mostly the second thing -- i.e. because you've assumed that it's implied that she knows that you have done the everyday things, you don't mention them. But the thing is, if she mentions them, she'll expect you to mention them too, and if you don't, she'll assume instead that you didn't do them -- because if she did her boring everyday tasks and told you about them, why wouldn't you do the same?

That's the Si mindset.

Thanks, EJCC. That helps a lot.

I have the same experience with some (not all ) Ni users. They'll either 1. Think I can read their minds and know what they are thinking/feeling. I can't. or 2. They think for me (i.e. think they can read my mind).

Thanks, Giggly. I'm working on that mind reading thing. Not always successful, though. Especially when I'm stressed.