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Thread: Ask an ESTJ!

  1. #641
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Tamske brought up an interesting point there. I do understand where the ESTJ's see their way as the truth rather than them pushing their opinion on someone. It seems though that the combination of this view, their directive nature and their dislike of vulnerability leads to pointing out other people's flaws/need to change but never to their own. I think people would not bristle nearly so much if it seemed like there were more give and take. However, when anything gets on that ground, most of the ESTJs I know shut down the discussion, leaving the other person feeling overly criticized and invalidated because it doesn't go both ways. I'm sure ESTJs are even more aware of their shortcomings than other people (they strike me as being unusually hard on themselves). Would it hurt to let others know they are aware they have shortcomings or things to change too?

  2. #642

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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Tamske brought up an interesting point there. I do understand where the ESTJ's see their way as the truth rather than them pushing their opinion on someone. It seems though that the combination of this view, their directive nature and their dislike of vulnerability leads to pointing out other people's flaws/need to change but never to their own. I think people would not bristle nearly so much if it seemed like there were more give and take. However, when anything gets on that ground, most of the ESTJs I know shut down the discussion, leaving the other person feeling overly criticized and invalidated because it doesn't go both ways. I'm sure ESTJs are even more aware of their shortcomings than other people (they strike me as being unusually hard on themselves). Would it hurt to let others know they are aware they have shortcomings or things to change too?
    This is really interesting... I often have this issue with my ESTJ boyfriend. Recently we talked about it and it became clear we're true "opposites" in a way: I'm always ready to point out people's qualities and make them feel better about themselves, but I'm rarely so kind towards myself; while he's always ready to criticise others, but he rarely criticises himself. No wonder he often makes me feel like s*it >< - I'm already self-critical enough to be constantly critised by my closest person as well (even if just jokingly), especially when I have no natural desire to criticise him back. I should definitely try to be more assertive in this aspect of our relationship.

    I think he knows very well he's got mistakes too, but not acknowledging them is something like a "defense mechanism" for him, as well as criticising others and holding onto his "truth". He told me repeatedly that he just "has to" have firm and unchangeable opinions of everything - I guess it's really sort of a "wall" he built around himself a long time ago. Sometimes it makes me think he's actually FAR more sensitive and vulnerable than me, if he has to built such a strong defense... Although I believe these things become very instinctual after a while, they're not anything conscious anymore; and I also believe it must be different for every ESTJ.
    Her head hung down
    Gazed at earth, finally keen,
    As the rabbit at the stoat,
    Till the earth was sky,
    Sky that was green,
    And brown clouds passed
    Like chestnut leaves along the ground.

    - SUSAN ANN AND IMMORTALITY, T. E. Hulme

  3. #643
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Most of the ESTJs I know are acquainted with many people, but close to very few. They find it very hard to be vulnerable even around the ones they are very close to. However, I think you are right that beneath the tough exterior, they are actually extremely hard on themselves and are more sensitive than you would ever guess initially. There was more than one occasion in the past with my ex-bf who was an ESTJ that he admitted much later that he had behaved in a selfish or hurtful way because of jealousy of people responding positively to me or because of something he was worried about or not dealing well with. However, at the time I would never have guessed (until we had been together for several years) that those were the motivations for his behaviour. He found it easier to emotionally distance himself than to go through the potential pain that could lie ahead. He also found it difficult to hear me talk about potentially difficult issues that would induce strong emotion in he or I and would shut it down immediately. I tend to want to express my fears or sadnesses to the people I love most because I want them to understand me. He did the opposite, which made me feel like I was the only person that had problems. Sometimes I think the other issue is a fear of what to do with their own or others emotions so it is easier to just avoid it altogether and make the other person do so as well. Some of the ESTJs I know seem surprised and embarrassed by their own emotions when they do come gushing out and work hard after to regain the face they feel they lost. For me, one of the big issues too was him wanting to take care of me and remind me of things, yet never (admitting to) needing anything from me, even in areas where I clearly had more expertise. He tended to hover and give advice a lot, which I could accept as part of his nature, except for the fact that he couldn't bear to depend on me for anything. It made me feel incompetent and to resent the care he did offer. I never realized how important it is to both depend and be depended on to feel that a relationship is equitable.

  4. #644
    inside the lines EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Most of the ESTJs I know are acquainted with many people, but close to very few. They find it very hard to be vulnerable even around the ones they are very close to. However, I think you are right that beneath the tough exterior, they are actually extremely hard on themselves and are more sensitive than you would ever guess initially. There was more than one occasion in the past with my ex-bf who was an ESTJ that he admitted much later that he had behaved in a selfish or hurtful way because of jealousy of people responding positively to me or because of something he was worried about or not dealing well with. However, at the time I would never have guessed (until we had been together for several years) that those were the motivations for his behaviour. He found it easier to emotionally distance himself than to go through the potential pain that could lie ahead. He also found it difficult to hear me talk about potentially difficult issues that would induce strong emotion in he or I and would shut it down immediately. I tend to want to express my fears or sadnesses to the people I love most because I want them to understand me. He did the opposite, which made me feel like I was the only person that had problems. Sometimes I think the other issue is a fear of what to do with their own or others emotions so it is easier to just avoid it altogether and make the other person do so as well. Some of the ESTJs I know seem surprised and embarrassed by their own emotions when they do come gushing out and work hard after to regain the face they feel they lost. For me, one of the big issues too was him wanting to take care of me and remind me of things, yet never (admitting to) needing anything from me, even in areas where I clearly had more expertise. He tended to hover and give advice a lot, which I could accept as part of his nature, except for the fact that he couldn't bear to depend on me for anything. It made me feel incompetent and to resent the care he did offer. I never realized how important it is to both depend and be depended on to feel that a relationship is equitable.
    +1, especially the bolded sections.

    About the first bolded section: Today, one of the INFJs I know read an article about a beautiful, 150-year-old cathedral in Haiti that was obliterated by the earthquake there. She proceeded to look up pictures of the beautiful murals and such that were on the inside, and showing all the pictures to me. I just don't understand why she does things like that!! I hate that. It makes me sad to look at it, and I'd rather just hear the overview and move on, as opposed to prolonging the sad emotional reaction. The previous time she did that (with a news story or whatever), I literally told her that I didn't want to hear about it anymore.

    About the second bolded section: That actually happened to me recently - I was in a good mood for the entire day, and a small bad thing happened and I snapped, completely out of nowhere. Got really pissed off, swore a lot, almost cried, wanted to kick things and scream into a pillow. The people I was with at the time kept apologizing for the small thing, even though it wasn't their fault. Tried to approach me and comfort me, but I really just wanted them to go away, because I was kind of embarrassed (and very uncomfortable - one of my reactions to that was "I don't know these people well enough to be almost crying in front of them!"). So I said to them: "It's okay. How about we just stop talking about it, and pretend like it didn't happen, so I can calm down?" And so they did, and I calmed down. But seriously, after I calmed down, my reaction was "Where the fsck did THAT come from?!?" I'm still not sure. Must have been a build-up of stuff throughout the day...
    Quote Originally Posted by Nørrsken impersonating EJCC
    It's strange. I keep banning morons, but they keep signing up? What is this?
    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    lawful good (D&D) / ravenclaw + wampus (HP) / boros legion (M:TG)
    conscientious > sensitive > serious (oldham)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

  5. #645
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    That reminds me of a text I got from my best friend (an ESTJ) the other day that said "is it bad that I'm avoiding reading any story on the earthquake in Haiti? I've decided that the headlines say it all"

    We had once discussed the practical side of natural disasters, so it didn't surprize me too much
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  6. #646
    inside the lines EJCC's Avatar
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    ^ Exactly.

    Random anecdote: I had a very stressful week last week, and I remembered having seen on a website that when under extreme stress, people start acting like their opposite type. And I TOTALLY did! After having a particularly intense day, I:
    - immediately retreated to somewhere quiet,
    - had a distinct need to "sort everything out" internally, and not say a word to anyone, and
    - felt as if no one was feeling things as deeply as I was(??wtf??)

    So that was kind of an unusual experience! Not pleasant, but surreal and incredibly fascinating.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nørrsken impersonating EJCC
    It's strange. I keep banning morons, but they keep signing up? What is this?
    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    lawful good (D&D) / ravenclaw + wampus (HP) / boros legion (M:TG)
    conscientious > sensitive > serious (oldham)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

  7. #647
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    How well do you tend to get along with ENTJs?
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  8. #648
    inside the lines EJCC's Avatar
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    ^ I like 'em. They're fun, entertaining people, the way they go off on nerdy tangents I think we make good friends. Usually, the ENTJs I know are much more take-charge than me or other ESTJs I know, so I'm the more introverted one. But, you know, when I'm hanging out with an ENTJ friend, we usually take turns with the Te-rambling vs. just nodding and going "Yeah, wow, that's interesting" So there's give and take, which is good. Not sure if I can tell that easily whether they like me or just like talking at me, but at least we have good conversation, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Nørrsken impersonating EJCC
    It's strange. I keep banning morons, but they keep signing up? What is this?
    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    lawful good (D&D) / ravenclaw + wampus (HP) / boros legion (M:TG)
    conscientious > sensitive > serious (oldham)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

  9. #649
    inside the lines EJCC's Avatar
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    Oh, and here's a link to my video for all who are interested.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nørrsken impersonating EJCC
    It's strange. I keep banning morons, but they keep signing up? What is this?
    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    lawful good (D&D) / ravenclaw + wampus (HP) / boros legion (M:TG)
    conscientious > sensitive > serious (oldham)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

  10. #650
    inside the lines EJCC's Avatar
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    So... any more questions?
    Quote Originally Posted by Nørrsken impersonating EJCC
    It's strange. I keep banning morons, but they keep signing up? What is this?
    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    lawful good (D&D) / ravenclaw + wampus (HP) / boros legion (M:TG)
    conscientious > sensitive > serious (oldham)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

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