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Thread: Ask an ESTJ!

  1. #631
    Writing... Array Tamske's Avatar
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    Thanks.
    By the way, I'm improving on efficiency! Deadlines work for me. [/boasting]

    Now a question I'd like you to take literally... (shouldn't be a problem!)

    I've seen you guys (and girls) saying repeatedly that ESTJ = the most hated type... why? Why do you think people hate you? Where do you experience this?

    (Incidentally, I think most people experience they aren't valued as high by others as they should. People tend to take your contribution as granted - especially if it's of the repetitive, non-showy kind.)
    Got questions? Ask an ENTP!
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  2. #632
    came back haunted Array EJCC's Avatar
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    I personally think it's because of the types of people who populate this site. They're mostly Ns, and when an ESTJ isn't healthy, they REALLY rub Ns the wrong way, more so than Ss, from my experience. Also, because they're Ns (seeing patterns everywhere), if they know a few ESTJs who are jerks/unhealthy/D-bags/etc, they often judge all ESTJs based on that model. So on TypeC, you'll hear a lot of "I hate ESTJs! My dad is an ESTJ, and he's the biggest control freak on the planet!" (Most of the ranting I've seen like that has been from INxPs... and as you know, there are a LOT of them on this forum.)

    But that's just my theory. Another valid theory might be that ESTJs are more annoying when unhealthy than other types are, but I disagree with that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nørrsken impersonating EJCC
    It's strange. I keep banning morons, but they keep signing up? What is this?
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  3. #633
    Senior Member Array Max's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    So on TypeC, you'll hear a lot of "I hate ESTJs! My dad is an ESTJ, and he's the biggest control freak on the planet!"
    Yeah, that's definitely a huge part of it.

    But I think it extends beyond this forum and to the other people around you who you interact with on a day-to-day basis, people who are unaware of their types and where Ns and NPs are much less populous than they are on here.

    I think it's because we're all different from each other in some way, and we tend to have this very strong "I'm right, you're wrong" kind of attitude towards things, whether we're consciously thinking about it or not. It can get bothersome to those around us, possibly including other ESTJs who may have a different way of looking at things or whatever.

    I think my life would be a lot better if a much greater proportion of people, especially those I interact with, were more similar to myself- scheduled, into the same things, etc.

    However, my life story goes back a long way, and I have a very specific situation that I think may have affected me to the point where it goes beyond my type as to why there's tension between myself and those around me.

    Maybe I'm an unhealthy ESTJ- I don't know.

  4. #634
    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    What makes me laugh on here is that despite an unusually high number of people abusing ESTJs, when there was a thread on which type you wish you could be, ESTJ was the number one answer.

    I think a lot of people are frustrated with feeling powerless or not valued and they often tend to be IN?Ps with ESTJ bosses (ESTJ bosses are also fairly common, so there are more opportunities for people to have met bad examples of them).

  5. #635
    Writing... Array Tamske's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Also, because they're Ns (seeing patterns everywhere), if they know a few ESTJs who are jerks/unhealthy/D-bags/etc, they often judge all ESTJs based on that model.
    Why wouldn't the Ns hate every type then? There are jerks to be found everywhere!
    And for the same reason our N can love every type...

    Incidentally, my 'problem type' is ENFJ, but I caught my generalisation (any N worth his/her salt also sees patterns in his/her own thoughts!) and refuse to hate them only because the first ENFJ examples I found were jerks... So I've actively sought some good ENFJ examples to correct the 'manipulating jerk' picture I knew was wrong - and found them.

    Still, most of the ENFJs in my stories are evil... (but I've created an important good one recently!)

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I think a lot of people are frustrated with feeling powerless or not valued...
    So true. When there are ESTJs in my presence (quite common occurence), I always feel inferior. It's as if the contrast enhances my flaws. Maybe the ESTJ hate is nothing but the hate of your own flaws.
    And, probably more than other types, ESTJs seem to give off this aura of "I'm perfect" - down to earth, caring about relevant things (eg. I know and feel that it's more important to be interested in politics than to be interested in your own crazy MBTI allegoric pictures), consistent,... you name it.
    Probably an unbalanced ESTJ would really think himself as perfect and the only reason why things get done.

    My husband and I were discussing flaws.
    Tamske - "Strange, when we discuss, it's always MY flaws we're discussing. What about yours?"
    Hubby - "I've got difficulties accepting other people's time management. You know - I see you doing it 'that way' while if you did it 'this way' you'd get the job done much quicker and have more free time"
    Tamske - "So that's again a flaw of mine "
    Hubby - "I didn't mean that!"
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  6. #636
    came back haunted Array EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamske View Post
    Why wouldn't the Ns hate every type then? There are jerks to be found everywhere!
    And for the same reason our N can love every type...
    Good point. Whoops
    So true. When there are ESTJs in my presence (quite common occurence), I always feel inferior. It's as if the contrast enhances my flaws. Maybe the ESTJ hate is nothing but the hate of your own flaws.
    And, probably more than other types, ESTJs seem to give off this aura of "I'm perfect" - down to earth, caring about relevant things (eg. I know and feel that it's more important to be interested in politics than to be interested in your own crazy MBTI allegoric pictures), consistent,... you name it.
    Probably an unbalanced ESTJ would really think himself as perfect and the only reason why things get done.
    Huh. This is a really interesting point, although I will say that I don't see it as arrogance. From my experience, ESTJs (even unhealthy ones) are not naturally prone towards big-headedness, or anything like that. It's not that they see themselves as perfect. It's that they see their views as THE TRUTH, which means that they
    1. are not open at ALL to new ideas (because their ideas are the right ones), and
    2. are always trying to change everyone to suit their model.
    Their obnoxious behavior is often entirely selfless. They just want everything to be DONE RIGHT!!!
    My husband and I were discussing flaws.
    Tamske - "Strange, when we discuss, it's always MY flaws we're discussing. What about yours?"
    Hubby - "I've got difficulties accepting other people's time management. You know - I see you doing it 'that way' while if you did it 'this way' you'd get the job done much quicker and have more free time"
    Tamske - "So that's again a flaw of mine "
    Hubby - "I didn't mean that!"
    Wow. Smooth moves, there.
    I kinda relate to your guy in this situation, though. The situations that frustrate me the most is when I see people doing things that I consider to be "illogical", or simply "wrong", and they "won't listen to reason" when I try to convince them to do things the "right" way.
    If I were to say what MY worst flaws were, though... I'd say that my #1 worst flaw that I wish I could change is my fear of breaking out of my comfort zone. I really, really envy ESTPs, because sometimes it seems like their comfort zone is pretty much endless... *wistful sigh*
    Quote Originally Posted by Nørrsken impersonating EJCC
    It's strange. I keep banning morons, but they keep signing up? What is this?
    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    lawful good (D&D) / ravenclaw + wampus (HP) / boros legion (M:TG)
    conscientious > sensitive > serious (oldham)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

  7. #637
    Writing... Array Tamske's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Good point. Whoops
    Huh. This is a really interesting point, although I will say that I don't see it as arrogance. From my experience, ESTJs (even unhealthy ones) are not naturally prone towards big-headedness, or anything like that. It's not that they see themselves as perfect. It's that they see their views as THE TRUTH, which means that they
    1. are not open at ALL to new ideas (because their ideas are the right ones), and
    2. are always trying to change everyone to suit their model.
    Their obnoxious behavior is often entirely selfless. They just want everything to be DONE RIGHT!!!
    Please accept a little Fe lesson - this is exactly what gives you the arrogant image.

    Wow. Smooth moves, there.
    I kinda relate to your guy in this situation, though. The situations that frustrate me the most is when I see people doing things that I consider to be "illogical", or simply "wrong", and they "won't listen to reason" when I try to convince them to do things the "right" way.
    If I were to say what MY worst flaws were, though... I'd say that my #1 worst flaw that I wish I could change is my fear of breaking out of my comfort zone. I really, really envy ESTPs, because sometimes it seems like their comfort zone is pretty much endless... *wistful sigh*
    Don't worry!
    He actually did mean it literally - he saw that as his flaw, not mine. It was a very interesting discussion...

    When talking to ESTJs: if you feel offended, it was probably not his/her intention. Feelings are okay when made explicit. Don't try to read between the lines. The messages/hidden meanings you find there are products of your own intuition and have nothing to do with reality.
    Got questions? Ask an ENTP!
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  8. #638
    Writing... Array Tamske's Avatar
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    About ENTP boredom...
    There is this "ENTP - bored" association I've seen thoughout the forum. We've had a discussion about it on the "ask an ENTP" thread, too.
    There were opinions like "My whole life is devoted to combat boredom"
    I can't relate to that at all! The only place where I saw the opposite opinion was here, voiced by an ESTJ (EJCC, to be precise).

    Have you ever seen a bored ENTP?

    And how do you see boredom and combat it, ESTJs?
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  9. #639
    Senior Member Array Chunes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC
    Their obnoxious behavior is often entirely selfless. They just want everything to be DONE RIGHT!!!
    I think being selfless involves letting others do things how they want. There is no mystical 'right way' to do things, and it drives me crazy when someone wants to limit it to one single way, like it couldn't be done any way else.
    "If you would convince a man that he does wrong, do right. But do not care to convince him. Men will believe what they see. Let them see."
    Thoreau

  10. #640
    Writing... Array Tamske's Avatar
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    Cool, an INFP on the "ask an ESTJ" thread.
    *admires the contrast*
    Got questions? Ask an ENTP!
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