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Thread: Ask an ESTJ!

  1. #531
    came back haunted Array EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    It also seems as if it can become kind of a hermetically sealed tautology if one doesn't continue taking in new information that might change one's opinion.
    Well, I'd like to think that most STJs can still be reasonably open to new information, depending on whether it's personal. Hence the "until proven otherwise". But that's where non-MBTI-related factors come in... including, presumably, some stuff with your dad.

    We're all hypocrites sometimes, and one's type doesn't change that.
    +1


    Sorry I was unclear. I meant to say that at times he would be visibly stiff, tense and irritated, but would have no idea that he was. The denotations of what he said would not be angry, nor would he be verbally lashing out, but it was still clear there was restrained anger and irritation there. It was also clear that emotion still tilted his reasoning a bit.
    Oh, I see. Yeah, I can do that sometimes; I'll come across as being snippy, without meaning to. I wonder, though, how much of what you're observing is observable to the average person (after all, you know how NFs are...). But the "restrained irritation" thing... he's probably an ISTJ. When I'm irritated, it just comes out, and there's not much I can do about it. I can't instinctively bottle up rage like that. Sadness? Stress? Sure. But anger? No way.

    When I was younger I found his mixed messages very confusing, because I knew he was angry but he was saying that he was not. My intuition and feeling were telling me that both things were true (both the he was angry, and that he thought he was telling the truth). It was very confusing at the time.
    Jeez! I can see how it would be. Poor guy... and poor you!

    I think even those of us heavy on the Fi sometimes have to go through that process. It's always possible to have a hard time attributing emotions to the correct cause. When I'm really puzzled by my emotional reaction to something, i still, every now and ago, have to go through a process where I make different suggestions internally about what the cause might be and wait until one resonates emotionally and intensifies the emotion. It's a little like dropping stones down a well and waiting until one makes a splash. It's a very internal process, so feels a little odd to try to verbalize it.
    Nah, I understand. You articulated it fine. However, it doesn't quite work that way for me. Because I bottle stuff up very quickly after it occurs (apparently - I assume this based on personal evidence, though I don't know for sure), it all builds up, so when I finally snap (i.e. getting disproportionally angry, wanting to cry about something (I hardly ever cry unless there's an unusual circumstance)), it could be anything, and since all had a hand in it, nothing really resonates. And even when it does, there's never a "splash" for me; I rationalize it, e.g. "Okay, it must be this, because it's the only thing that makes sense."

    Anyway, thanks one again for the dialog; it's been very helpful. I'm off to take a look at that "Breaking Rules" thread.
    So, did it help at all? I'm curious


    p.s. Any other questions?
    "When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world -- 'No, YOU move.'"
    - Captain America

    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    lawful good (D&D) / ravenclaw + wampus (HP) / boros legion (M:TG)
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    want to ask me something? go for it!

  2. #532
    Writing... Array Tamske's Avatar
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    No problem, man! Let's see now... here's what I like about my ESTJ-ness, that I can think of:

    1. I'm DECISIVE. I'm a 6w7, and I'm STILL decisive (most of the time)! After I make a decision, I really don't look back.
    2. I'm loyal to my friends and family, and even if I'm not exactly a counselor, if someone was mean to a friend, I'll... deal with the problem.
    3. If I see something that needs doing, I go right up and do it. For example, if I see an animal that's been mistreated, I call the Humane Society immediately. This has happened to me twice.
    4. My attention span is pretty much endless! I can't think of the last time that I was bored.
    5. I'm a pretty rational person; if you give me enough evidence against something I believe in, I'll change my mind.
    6. I'm impressively self-motivated. The only motivation I need is "You have to do this by X time on Y day."
    7. I almost never need to work at memorizing things.
    I don't really have a question, but I read this and want to thank you. Yes, it's great to be an ESTJ. I'm copypasting it into my Main Character folder.

    It's also great to be an ENTP, though! I'm never bored either...

  3. #533
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    Are ESTJs irked by idealism in others?

    Too much romanticism?

  4. #534
    came back haunted Array EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by matilda View Post
    Are ESTJs irked by idealism in others?

    Too much romanticism?
    Depends on the type of idealism, I guess. ESTJs can be idealistic, too - for example, the kind of idealism found in Frank Capra films has always moved me. However, if the idealism is overly romantic, and if the ESTJ finds it unrealistic, they might be a little annoyed by it, in an NT sort of way ("That's a fantasy! You need to make REALISTIC goals!" (not verbalized like that, though)). An example of that might be "Free Tibet" stickers/signs/shirts/etc. I'm not annoyed by them, per se (after all, it's a nice sentiment), but I think they're kidding themselves - since when will anything they do convince the Chinese government to give Tibet back?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tamske View Post
    I don't really have a question, but I read this and want to thank you. Yes, it's great to be an ESTJ. I'm copypasting it into my Main Character folder.
    No problem! I'm glad that helped you out

    It's also great to be an ENTP, though! I'm never bored either...
    That's like the ENTP I'm friends with. If there isn't anything to do, there's always admiring shiny objects for hours at a time
    "When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world -- 'No, YOU move.'"
    - Captain America

    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    lawful good (D&D) / ravenclaw + wampus (HP) / boros legion (M:TG)
    conscientious > sensitive > serious (oldham)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

  5. #535
    Writing... Array Tamske's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    That's like the ENTP I'm friends with. If there isn't anything to do, there's always admiring shiny objects for hours at a time
    Right now, my shiny thing is the MBTI theory...

    Another question now: how do you see your opposite INFP?
    I asked the same question in the Idyllic ("INFPs, how do you see yourself") and I got really poetic answers - I guess that's just INFP style... I'd like to see the contrast with an ESTJ-style description!

  6. #536
    Vaguely Precise Array Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Well, I'd like to think that most STJs can still be reasonably open to new information, depending on whether it's personal. Hence the "until proven otherwise". But that's where non-MBTI-related factors come in... including, presumably, some stuff with your dad.


    [We're all hypocrits sometime...]
    +1
    back -- helps to keep that in mind, for me. One thing ESTJs and INFPs have in common is that we can be pretty uncompromising at times. It's just that INFPs are the sleeper agents.
    Oh, I see. Yeah, I can do that sometimes; I'll come across as being snippy, without meaning to. I wonder, though, how much of what you're observing is observable to the average person (after all, you know how NFs are...). But the "restrained irritation" thing... he's probably an ISTJ. When I'm irritated, it just comes out, and there's not much I can do about it. I can't instinctively bottle up rage like that. Sadness? Stress? Sure. But anger? No way.
    He could definitely be ISTJ, although the jury is still out. I'd say he uses Si a lot more the Se, though (so that's ISTJ-ish) but he definitely self-identifies with his career and public roles to a great degree (which is a little more ESTJ than ISTJ). I think I'm going to talk it over with my type-aware family members, and see if they have an opinion (including him).

    And I think his being angry wouldn't have been visible to someone who wasn't pretty tuned in and who didn't know him pretty well. My dad is not a relaxed kind of guy, but when upset or disapproving he becomes visibly (if subtly) more tense. He would remain stiff and excessively emotionally neutral as long as he was irritated, and even as he would deny irritation.
    Jeez! I can see how it would be. Poor guy... and poor you!
    It was amazingly stressful at the time (you know NFs -- want people to be happy) but I've generally worked through it by now. I think it made me more paranoid of STJs in general when I was younger, though (which is easy for an INFP, anyway).
    Nah, I understand. You articulated it fine. However, it doesn't quite work that way for me. Because I bottle stuff up very quickly after it occurs (apparently - I assume this based on personal evidence, though I don't know for sure), it all builds up, so when I finally snap (i.e. getting disproportionally angry, wanting to cry about something (I hardly ever cry unless there's an unusual circumstance)), it could be anything, and since all had a hand in it, nothing really resonates. And even when it does, there's never a "splash" for me; I rationalize it, e.g. "Okay, it must be this, because it's the only thing that makes sense."
    Gotcha. I think all of us have overblown reactions at some point. If we are yelling and screaming about squeezing the toothpaste in the middle, chances are it's not all about the toothpaste. What it is about, exactly, is difficult to figure.
    So, did it help at all? I'm curious
    It does help. It also helps separate out which aspects are more xSTJ-ish, and which are specific to my dad. I sure do like some of my ISTJ coworkers at work (bless them for liking scheduling, project plans, etc and not expecting me to be so gung ho), and they are more more emotionally open that my dad is to anyone (not to discount how much my dad cares for his family).

  7. #537
    came back haunted Array EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamske View Post
    Another question now: how do you see your opposite INFP?
    I asked the same question in the Idyllic ("INFPs, how do you see yourself") and I got really poetic answers - I guess that's just INFP style... I'd like to see the contrast with an ESTJ-style description!
    I've been postponing answering this question because I don't really know many INFPs. Here it is anyways:

    From my limited experience with INFPs, they're kind of ditzy, in a way; although they mean well, they're inept in a lot of areas that ESTJs like me tend to focus on (e.g. detail work). They're contradictory in nature - on the one hand, they're very intuitive and knowledgeable about people and their inner workings, but on the other hand, they're perpetually confused about worldly things. They also seem to act as their opposite a lot more than most types*, which is sad to me - but then again, I'm a generally secure person, and it always makes me sad when others pretend to be something they aren't. (Plus, most of my INFP moments are HORRIBLE, because they show up when I'm really stressed out and in a horrible mood, and, no offense meant to INFPs, I would NEVER want to be one.)

    But anyways, if this all seems negative, it's not that I dislike them. I think they're generally very nice people - certainly thoughtful, and always wanting to help others. I admire that in people. It's because I can't really relate to INFPs - they think exactly the opposite way that I do. Some things that I think are just common sense are things that they miss entirely. (I'm sure they feel the same way about ESTJs, though, to be fair.)


    *One INFP I know teaches high school level U.S. Government, and I'm not sure how well she'd function in that job if she stayed INFP the whole time.
    "When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world -- 'No, YOU move.'"
    - Captain America

    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    lawful good (D&D) / ravenclaw + wampus (HP) / boros legion (M:TG)
    conscientious > sensitive > serious (oldham)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

  8. #538
    Senior Member Array Keps Mnemnosyne's Avatar
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    What are the top three traits you like in a person? Three traits you dislike? Please don't use the stereotypical answer like efficiency or its opposite or any word that means approximately those things unless you have to, please.

    Why are you busy?
    Love wouldn't exist without loneliness to inspire it.

    Peach yogurt is made of love. And gnome kidneys. - Domino

    I can cope and will cope without polluting my lungs. - Saslou

  9. #539
    came back haunted Array EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keps Mnemnosyne View Post
    What are the top three traits you like in a person? Three traits you dislike? Please don't use the stereotypical answer like efficiency or its opposite or any word that means approximately those things unless you have to, please.
    Hm...

    1. Politeness/niceness
    2. Sense of humor/knowing when and when not to be serious
    3. Reasonableness/rationality/honesty

    Why are you busy?
    School... many credits... a job... lifestyle adjustment... soul-searching. But mostly the first three.
    "When the mob and the press and the whole world tell you to move, your job is to plant yourself like a tree beside the river of truth, and tell the whole world -- 'No, YOU move.'"
    - Captain America

    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    lawful good (D&D) / ravenclaw + wampus (HP) / boros legion (M:TG)
    conscientious > sensitive > serious (oldham)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

  10. #540
    Junior Member Array Dailtone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Hm...

    1. Politeness/niceness
    2. Sense of humor/knowing when and when not to be serious
    3. Reasonableness/rationality/honesty

    Thank goodness! Your previous words regarding your opinions on NF left me a bit concerned. My ESTJ husband is hopeless at giving me compliments or affirmations about what he is attracted to in me ( of course it's not a life or death issue, but it would be NICE ONCE IN A WHILE to HEAR ).

    I'm pretty sure , despite being what some might describe as a ditz, I possess the 3 qualities you listed. So hopefully those are the things he appreciates in me...

    ( I think his philosophy is ''as long as I dont say anything is wrong , everything is fine ''. Unfortunately for me that means I only get to hear the things that are 'wrong' and rarely get to hear what is 'right' with me..." )

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