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Thread: Ask an ESTJ!

  1. #41
    came back haunted Array EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Sorry, there's more!
    Wow, you're inquisitive! Is it because of your ex? Either way, you write excellent (though difficult) questions, and it's fun (and brain-teasing) to answer them.

    Why do ESTJs seem to fear the worst? Is it their way of being ever prepared for any situation?...Is it truly reassuring to worry over hypothetical situations that may never come to be so that you are prepared, or is it more of a neurotic response to not knowing what will happen?
    There are two general reasons why I might fear the worst. One, which happens unconsciously, is fear of the unknown. I get scared for the worst, so I (for whatever reason) spend more time worrying about the bad option than being positive about the good option. The second reason, which happens consciously, is that I just assume that the worst will happen, to keep me safe emotionally.

    Also, I have noticed some ESTJs act very put upon about doing things even if they had always planned to and did not find them any particular problem. Is this a way of asking for thanks? I really took it personally at first and tried not to inconvenience them or to alter the situation to be less of a problem and they still kept complaining. I expressed thanks frequently and in a heart felt way. What should I have done?
    I have a pretty hard time wrapping my head around the idea of acting put upon for something you needed to do anyways. The only instance where that would make sense to me would be if they were planning on doing it at a different time, and you were messing with their schedule. Otherwise, I have no idea. With regard to keeping them from complaining... in my case, when I'm put upon and people apologize to me over and over, it actually irritates me more the more they say sorry. I'd recommend complimenting their work once they're finished - or, if they're still pissed off, just leave them alone for a bit

    I tend to try to make people I care about feel appreciated through cards, their favourite treat/meal from the grocery store, and little presents. My ESTJ would rarely acknowledge or comment that he had even received them. I finally became frustrated and stopped giving him written thank yous etc because it felt like a personal rejection of me and anything I could offer. When it came up one time, he said that it "made him feel awkward and he wasn't sure what to say". He also was very reluctant to accept help as well as expertise in any area from me, although he was happy to give it without any sense of obligation. Does this have more to do with type or with the individual. How would you best make an ESTJ feel appreciated and loved?
    The bolded part really strikes me. This has definitely happened to me in the past. For example, when I was in elementary school, instead of saying emotional goodbyes to my friends on the last day of school, I would sneak out so no one saw me and I wouldn't have to deal with it. His reaction was probably a variation on what I used to do (if you know what I mean). I think, in his mind, you were making huge events out of things when you did that, in an emotional way - like you were opening your heart to him, and expressing your feelings to the fullest extent. And as you probably know, an ESTJ reaction to "expressing your feelings" is going to be pretty awkward. I guess I would recommend showing your affection/love in a more casual/indirect way that doesn't turn it into a mini ceremony - e.g. taking him out to a nice dinner, complimenting him, giving smooches/hugs

    and it's nice enough to
    make a man
    weep, but I don't
    weep, do
    you?


    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
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    lawful good (D&D) / ravenclaw + wampus (HP) / boros legion (M:TG)
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    want to ask me something? go for it!

  2. #42
    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    Regarding the advice part of things, that created a lot of friction with me and my ESTJ at the beginning of our relationship, when he was trying to decide how to invest his inheritance from his parents, who had recently passed away. I know that I come to decisions mostly through talking things over with other people and clarifying my thoughts through expressing them and through the reactions and ideas of others. I'm not looking for them to solve it, but it's not a done deal in my head before I have considered several points of view. I didn't feel like I knew much about investing, and he didn't ask directly for advice, so I assumed he just needed to talk about it and bat some ideas around. I vent to process problems and he thought I was asking for advice, which I wasn't. Must be F/T. With my dad, who is an ISTJ, my mum or I will throw several possible options out there. He will immediately either decide that we will have our way (even if we haven't committed to anything) or else decide privately what it will be and do it, forgoing any discussion at all. I thought it was just a lack of communication, but maybe it has more to do with type?

    What you said about the need to be funny or clever with people you don't know also was behaviour I recognized.

    About seeking out malleable people, I generally mean in friendships as there is much less choice over who you work with.

    What kind of conversational subjects would you consider non-small talk/substantive?

  3. #43
    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    I'm interested in knowing because of my ex, but also because there are a lot of ESTJs that I see but don't know well enough to ask questions to. In schools, some people are NFs (who stand out and you can see inside their heads if you are interested), there's the odd NT, but most are SJs (who are completely foreign to my way of thinking and little more opaque). My dad is an ISTJ, which has some commonalities, and I have difficulty understanding him or communicating with him. My friend's husband was an ESTJ but they moved away a couple of years ago. They often tend to be bosses where I work, and there are also some among the students I teach. I think my NF ways may mildly irritate them at times and I also like having people properly organized in the filing cabinet of my mind.

    For me, written compliments are lower key because no one has to watch you receiving them and when you need a little pick me up, they are there to go back to. Plus that's what would make me happiest from someone else. I never thought of it being seen as pouring out my heart. Because of my ESTJ's disinterest in most things emotional, as well as in many of my thoughts/projects/musings, he didn't see a whole lot of the core part of what mattered to me, other than that I cared dearly for him.

    I found that with expressing physical affection/intimacy, he was the one that wanted to take the lead at all times. Would you say that is typical?

    As far as the put upon thing, one book I read said it is an SJ coping mechanism. I don't know if that's true or not. He even recognized he was doing it. He'd say, "I might act like I mind and complain, but I really don't mind doing such and such". For me the complaining negated any help being given and made me feel beholden and mad. One example would be on trips where we had more boys in his hotel room than girls in mine. He would invariably need to sleep on a cot while I had a bed. He would comment to coworkers and friends on how arduous the trip had been and about the discomforts of sleeping on a cot etc. I realized after a while that much of what he says is exaggerated to be much better or worse than it really is for the effect and almost as a way of boasting. He neither feels that things are as good or as bad as he might let on to others that he doesn't know well.

    How could a teacher make life better for you as an ESTJ student?

    I think that's it for tonight. Thanks for answering!

  4. #44
    came back haunted Array EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Also, I'm not sure how to use the quote option. Do you highlight it first and then press quote, or do you go into your own message or ...?
    You press the quote button. The way I've been quoting different sections is manually writing [quote] before a passage and /quote (in brackets) at the end of it.

    I found your answers all very interesting and many of them really rang true with what I've seen around me. I have a sneaking suspicion though that if I asked many ESTJs, they wouldn't have been able to come up with clear answers like that. What has made you interested in type and reflective enough to even want to help us out this way?
    For whatever reason, MBTI really appealed to me from the start. I think it's because it cleans up so many loose ends - and you know how ESTJs like loose ends getting cleaned up It explains so much! There were all these ESTJ-specific things that I read about where I thought "Wow! I'm not just a freak! Other people do these things too!" So... part of my MBTI-obsession probably comes from the fact that I have a nerdy/Asperger's/crazy-Ne streak. (A quote from Typelogic.com that essentially describes my ESTJ adolescence: "I've encountered ESTJs whose Ne overshadows the auxiliary Si function--for whatever reason--to the extent that there is an appearance of NT radical geekism.")
    But to answer the second part of the question: Most of the reasons for my creation of this thread are in the first post. One other reason is that I kind of think of this as a test. Can I do this? Can I prove myself, a n00b of less than 500 posts, in front of 5,000+ post experts? Another reason is that there isn't much that I like more than being an expert on something - even if, in this case, that thing is myself.

    I especially found the compliment thing interesting in terms of teaching students. What is a compliment to one type wouldn't be to another. I have no interest really in either where I rank in relation to others (well, not at the bottom, but...) or in someone telling me that I am reliable and so I wouldn't ever think to compliment someone about that. However, from the SJs I know, I think that does matter a lot.
    Yet another reason why MBTI is awesome. I didn't fully realize until I took the test that everyone thinks so differently from one another. I actually thought my INFJ mom would test the same as me!! Lol! (But to my credit, she's so loud around friends and family that I had no idea that she was an introvert.)

    I can't imagine not going back over your life and thinking about what you might have done the same and what you would have changed.
    I can't imagine what it would be like to always have your head more in the future than in the present But that's why we need each other for society to work, you know?

    I'm sorry to bombard you with questions, but it is so rare to find an ESTJ to ask, that it seems that I need to seize the day! Thanks!
    No need to apologize. This is really fun for me, actually! Rock on!

    and it's nice enough to
    make a man
    weep, but I don't
    weep, do
    you?


    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    lawful good (D&D) / ravenclaw + wampus (HP) / boros legion (M:TG)
    conscientious > sensitive > serious (oldham)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I don't understand them. At all. I have loads of xxxP friends, but when it comes to, you know, issues of being on time, or not living as structured a life, I can't relate at all. I try, but I can't think of any reason why doing things ON TIME wouldn't be a high priority! :steam: Which is one reason why my one ENTP friend is such an enigma. I've just gotten to the point where I think "Just let her be. She gets the job done, so whatever methods she uses are okay in the end. Try not to obsess about it..."
    Oh thats interesting, a lot of ESTJs usually keep hounding us to use judging rather than letting us do it our way, I've noticed that some have learnt to accept it which I'm thankful for not only for my sake but for theirs seeing how 50% of the population are Ps

  6. #46
    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    Oh yeah, about that last point in your post, about you in elementary school - he's already decided that he will not show up for the little good-bye ceremony they have for the people that are leaving on the last day.One more question:* do you get uncomfortable and avoid people close to you that are terminally ill or in the hospital?* Does it make you feel in danger of being emotional or of being out of control etc?* I suspect my uncle is an ESTJ and I've noticed that he is very much that way.* I've seen that in some others and wondered if it is coincidence or type.

  7. #47
    came back haunted Array EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    About seeking out malleable people, I generally mean in friendships as there is much less choice over who you work with.
    Well, I generally look for friends (at first) based on shared interests. I sift out the ones that are more compatible with me from there.

    What kind of conversational subjects would you consider non-small talk/substantive?
    Anything sincere. I didn't mean to sound snooty there! I just meant stereotypical small talk, i.e. questions that you ask because you feel obligated or because you have nothing to say, NOT because you actually care.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I found that with expressing physical affection/intimacy, he was the one that wanted to take the lead at all times. Would you say that is typical?
    Erm...I'm not the ESTJ you should talk to about romance. I won't go beyond that.

    As far as the put upon thing, one book I read said it is an SJ coping mechanism. I don't know if that's true or not. He even recognized he was doing it. He'd say, "I might act like I mind and complain, but I really don't mind doing such and such". For me the complaining negated any help being given and made me feel beholden and mad. One example would be on trips where we had more boys in his hotel room than girls in mine. He would invariably need to sleep on a cot while I had a bed. He would comment to coworkers and friends on how arduous the trip had been and about the discomforts of sleeping on a cot etc. I realized after a while that much of what he says is exaggerated to be much better or worse than it really is for the effect and almost as a way of boasting. He neither feels that things are as good or as bad as he might let on to others that he doesn't know well.
    Wow! I don't think I relate to this at all! Maybe I'm just weird.

    How could a teacher make life better for you as an ESTJ student?
    I'm fine, I think. Just... always be one step ahead of me. My one expectation of teachers is that they be superior to me in as many ways as are relevant to the class*. (e.g. when teachers are bad spellers, that always offends me to a degree, because I'm a spelling geek.) Honestly, though, I don't really need any special treatment.

    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Oh yeah, about that last point in your post, about you in elementary school - he's already decided that he will not show up for the little good-bye ceremony they have for the people that are leaving on the last day.One more question:* do you get uncomfortable and avoid people close to you that are terminally ill or in the hospital?* Does it make you feel in danger of being emotional or of being out of control etc?* I suspect my uncle is an ESTJ and I've noticed that he is very much that way.* I've seen that in some others and wondered if it is coincidence or type.
    At the moment, no one close to me is terminally ill or in the hospital (although if someone close to me was terminally ill, I would have essentially no idea how to handle it), but I've had some uncomfortable experiences at old folks' homes. I volunteered at an old folks' home once, writing down a man's life story. It was horrible. His wife had died recently, and he cried whenever he talked about her. He was a very sweet man, and I liked him a lot, but when asked if I would visit him after I finished the note-taking for the "life story", I knew right away that the answer was no. The environment was so sterile and depressing, and it was just like visiting a dying man. I'm not sure why it makes me so uncomfortable... I just don't know how to handle it. I draw a blank, you know?


    *ESPECIALLY organization! Disorganized teachers make me nervous - what if they lose my papers???

    and it's nice enough to
    make a man
    weep, but I don't
    weep, do
    you?


    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    lawful good (D&D) / ravenclaw + wampus (HP) / boros legion (M:TG)
    conscientious > sensitive > serious (oldham)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

  8. #48
    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    Are there things that make you feel guilty/remorseful? What kinds of things would bother you?

  9. #49
    Senior Member Array WickedQueen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by professor goodstain View Post
    Have you ever been interested in journalism?

    i did notice that you wrote one-woman battle? There is absolutely no intent for connection between the first question and the second observation question Ne coincidence or something. Not being sarcastic. Thanks.
    I'm interested in journalism, yes. Very much.

    In fact...

    I am a journalist!

  10. #50
    Senior Member Array WickedQueen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Are there things that make you feel guilty/remorseful? What kinds of things would bother you?
    My arrogancy and my sharp tongue often hurt people. It's my biggest guilt.

    Many things bothers me. But its usually because of:
    1. the lack of money,
    2. stupid/emotional/exaggerate people (I have no patience with them!),
    3. delayed stuff,
    4. and not-yet-come-true dreams.

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