[ESTJ] Ask an ESTJ!

[sui generis]

Reading back in the thread a bit...

An example of an ESTJ being convinced that something is true=
ESTJ: That's not true! What about ____ and _____? Everyone knows about THOSE.
xxxx: Well, actually, check out these statistics from (insert credible source here). Also, here's why your logic is wrong... ___________.
ESTJ: ... Huh. Okay.

The "huh. okay." is their way of saying "I'm convinced now. I'll register that as fact from now on, and argue your side if the argument comes up again."
It could also mean: "God damn it, you're right. I can't believe I just spent all that time arguing the wrong side! I'll make a dismissive statement so we can move on to a different topic and I can avoid my severe and acute embarrassment."

NAIL. HIT. ON. THE. HEAD. What you've just said is VERBATIM what I'd say (or not say) in an argument when I've just been owned, and exactly what I'm saying in my head afterwards.

Now that I'm grown, I am less likely to get sulky about being proven wrong, and more able to learn from other people. Maturity FTW!

 

[Tamske]

You should definitely make a list like that. Should I post on the ISTJ question thread, so you have an excuse to make one?

Please ask it on the ENTP one! I'm already trying to find the ENTP ingredients...

What about the stick-in-the-mud ESTJ? The one like Vernon Dursley from Harry Potter, or Auto from Wall-E? The one who is so bent on avoiding new, strange, abnormal things that he'll do really crazy things himself?
Vernon Dursley doesn't want to know his nephew is going to a magic school and in order to deny that abnormality, he shuts every crack in his house and flees all over the country. Auto follows his directive - business as usual - and in order to do that, he locks up the captain (which is not business as usual)...
I'd think that one tastes like flour.

 

[EJCC]

^Yeah, I think either flour or water. Flour makes sense for boring and stick-in-the-mud, but water makes sense to me because it always makes things blander, and less strong/unusual tasting. And sometimes that watering down is very hard to undo.

p.s. I posted on the ENTP and ISTJ question threads

 

[sui generis]

Flour-flavored ESTJ? DO NOT WANT.

But what if that kind of ESTJ is made out of flour AND water? Like the paste that you make for preschoolers? Makes them all the more stick-in-the-mud-y.

Anyway, *shudder* I'd like to think I'm more like hot peppers.

 

[EJCC]

Flour-flavored ESTJ? DO NOT WANT.

Well, if it makes you feel any better, we were interpreting the question as ingredients, and not flavors. So (thank god) no one has to deal with flour-flavored ESTJ in the immediate future!

 

[Redbone]

Raises hand:

Why is my good ESTJ driving me nuts with questions about "what am I going to do?" I have a complex situation going on. I've thought about it and made plans. I told him what my plans are but he keeps asking me what am I going to "do" or how I'm going to "execute" this. He likes to give me advice and talk to me like I haven't considered anything...

I have to repeatedly tell him, "I've got this..." to which he replies, "Yeah but..." or "I know that you know _________ but I'm just telling you." No, you're wasting my time by telling me something I already know. Cut it out, why cantcha?
Why does he do this? What in Hades does he want to hear? That I have pressed the instant button and all is fixed? I don't see why he cannot understand that it will take some time for all of these plans to unfold.

I always feel like he's questioning my competency...:steam:

 

[EJCC]

Raises hand:

Why is my good ESTJ driving me nuts with questions about "what am I going to do?" I have a complex situation going on. I've thought about it and made plans. I told him what my plans are but he keeps asking me what am I going to "do" or how I'm going to "execute" this. He likes to give me advice and talk to me like I haven't considered anything...

I have to repeatedly tell him, "I've got this..." to which he replies, "Yeah but..." or "I know that you know _________ but I'm just telling you." No, you're wasting my time by telling me something I already know. Cut it out, why cantcha?
Why does he do this? What in Hades does he want to hear? That I have pressed the instant button and all is fixed? I don't see why he cannot understand that it will take some time for all of these plans to unfold.

I always feel like he's questioning my competency...:steam:

It makes sense that you would feel that way, but he doesn't mean to annoy you. Your ESTJ is acting that way because he cares. Not because he's questioning your competency, but because he's concerned about you. See, when he says "I know you understand this, but I'm going to tell you anyway", he actually doesn't know that you understand it, but he's saying that so that he won't get the response "Of course I know that! How can you think that I'm so stupid???" He's cushioning the blow. I'm guessing that he keeps giving you advice and asking you what your plans are because he's worrying and wants reassurance. He wants to make sure you (and the situation) are taken care of.

I've been guilty of this on a number of occasions...

 

[raz]

Is it wrong if I think you're so hot after that ESTJ flavors description?

 

[EJCC]

Is it wrong if I think you're so hot after that ESTJ flavors description?

It's pretty much never wrong when someone thinks I'm hot

...unless the person is old and/or creepy.

EDIT (after checking out the Picture Time thread): ...But, raz, you are neither creepy nor old, so it's all good.

 

[Redbone]

It makes sense that you would feel that way, but he doesn't mean to annoy you. Your ESTJ is acting that way because he cares. Not because he's questioning your competency, but because he's concerned about you. See, when he says "I know you understand this, but I'm going to tell you anyway", he actually doesn't know that you understand it, but he's saying that so that he won't get the response "Of course I know that! How can you think that I'm so stupid???" He's cushioning the blow. I'm guessing that he keeps giving you advice and asking you what your plans are because he's worrying and wants reassurance. He wants to make sure you (and the situation) are taken care of.

I've been guilty of this on a number of occasions...

I guess I'll put away my bat then. *Grumpily settling down*

I know he cares...he was right there for me when my mother passed away. And he knows I have made many a trip around the levels of hell and doesn't want me to keep being a frequent visitor.

But good gravy--he can drive me utterly nuts!! I really don't get it--not too many other people can get to me but he sure as hell does. I wonder if it's some special ESTJ touch...

 

[raz]

It's pretty much never wrong when someone thinks I'm hot

...unless the person is old and/or creepy.

EDIT (after checking out the Picture Time thread): ...But, raz, you are neither creepy nor old, so it's all good.

Awwwwwsuuumm! *goes to scheme methods of courtship*

 

[EJCC]

I guess I'll put away my bat then. *Grumpily settling down*

This quote reminds me of my INTP friend. Which is a very good thing.

But good gravy--he can drive me utterly nuts!! I really don't get it--not too many other people can get to me but he sure as hell does. I wonder if it's some special ESTJ touch...

I dunno. Is it mostly him doing stuff like that? Or are there more quirks that bug you?

(Speaking of unsolicited advice... I might suggest trying to laugh at those quirks instead of getting mad at them. It'll help you deal with them better, I think. "Oh man, there goes my ESTJ again, bossin' everyone around. Bless his little heart!")

Awwwwwsuuumm! *goes to scheme methods of courtship*

:blushing: *pretends like she didn't read that*

 

[Redbone]

I dunno. Is it mostly him doing stuff like that? Or are there more quirks that bug you?

(Speaking of unsolicited advice... I might suggest trying to laugh at those quirks instead of getting mad at them. It'll help you deal with them better, I think. "Oh man, there goes my ESTJ again, bossin' everyone around. Bless his little heart!")
*

Oh, no--he has a lot more quirks that get on my nerves. He thinks his hugs are miracle cures for whatever is wrong. I get annoyed when they actually work sometimes...especially after I've insisted that I don't need one. He also won't let me see how upset he is when I'm right about something and he's not. That's just DAW!

Here's a snapshot of an exchange between us (we were discussing him and how he communicates):

From Me: Criticism from you can sound rather harsh and condescending (yeah--especially the latter. You almost got your head bashed in by yours truly for that, ya know?)
You do make an effort to 'sound nice' about it but it still has this,
"by God, you're stupid as fuck! Now listen to me and do as I say and everything will go right..." element to it.
Not to me because my skin is a little too thick for that. I will admit I get annoyed to some degree because I partially interpret it as questioning my competency and knowledge. But I'm nice enough to tune your ass out, let you talk, and go right on with what I'm doing. It also helps if I say ugly things about you in my head.

Like this:
You: ______, you need to do a, b, c...
Me: (Silently thinks), "Why is he telling me this? Hadn't it occurred to him that I already thought of these things? Methinks he doesn't know me well at all. Sheesh...."
You: ______, are you listening to me?
Me: HFN--I'm not listening to you.
You: Well, you need to ....
Me: Why?
You: Because...
Me (interrupts): I'm sorry, go ahead. (Silently thinks): "Don't let the fact that I'm ignoring you keep you from talking."

You're supposed to laugh, __________. I thought it was funny....

End exchange.

He didn't think what I wrote above was funny. I've been waiting for many years for him to appreciate my quirky sense of humor.

I don't really get angry with him but I do find it annoying at times. I just didn't get why he did it. To me, it seemed like what I was saying wasn't sinking in at all and I kept having to repeat myself...something I absolutely hate!

I'll be sure to bask in his concern of me instead of finding it prickly. As a Southerner, I had to laugh about the "bless his heart" phrase. Blessing someone's heart covers a multitude of sins.
Thanks!

 

[EJCC]

Forewarning: None of the below is me blaming you or taking his side. I'm simply trying to give an insight into his mysterious ESTJ brain...

Oh, no--he has a lot more quirks that get on my nerves. He thinks his hugs are miracle cures for whatever is wrong. I get annoyed when they actually work sometimes...especially after I've insisted that I don't need one. He also won't let me see how upset he is when I'm right about something and he's not. That's just DAW!

I think pretty much every ESTJ in the world is like that. It's more embarrassing to be an ESTJ who's wrong than any other type who's wrong, I think.

Here's a snapshot of an exchange between us (we were discussing him and how he communicates):

*insert silly anecdote-ish thing here*

He didn't think what I wrote above was funny. I've been waiting for many years for him to appreciate my quirky sense of humor.

INTP humor definitely takes some getting used to for ESTJs, I think - but only the INTP humor that involves teasing the ESTJ. Teasing anyone else? No big deal. But we have different standards for ourselves. (Lol, anyone who thinks ESTJs can't have sensitive moments is absolutely bonkers.)

His internal response was probably:
"...You tune me out? I didn't notice... And I was just trying to help... "

I don't really get angry with him but I do find it annoying at times. I just didn't get why he did it. To me, it seemed like what I was saying wasn't sinking in at all and I kept having to repeat myself...something I absolutely hate!

I guess there are two conflicting instincts for ESTJs in those situations:

1. She's telling me to stop, so I should respect her wishes, trust her judgment, and stop.
2. I worry about her. I want things to go well for her, because I care. I'm a type-A person, so I generally want to step in whenever there's something wrong, to try my best to get things fixed. So I should step in and help her.

And considering that #1 is more Fe (weakest function) and #2 is more Te (strongest function), you can tell which one will win in the end. It's sad, really. And it also explains why your ESTJ always sounds so condescending, even when he doesn't mean to and he's (I'm guessing) not nearly as arrogant as he sounds - because he's got no Fe to speak of.

I'll be sure to bask in his concern of me instead of finding it prickly. As a Southerner, I had to laugh about the "bless his heart" phrase. Blessing someone's heart covers a multitude of sins.
Thanks!

Aw No problem! Even though I was raised in the West, my whole family lives in the South, so I guess I have that particular brand of passive-aggressiveness built in.

 

[runvardh]

What would happen if an ESTJ were given a log with all the thought processes, problem solving processes, and actions taken to date along with where the current walls are - then told to read first?

 

[EJCC]

Um... I'm not sure what you mean. Read what? Read the log before taking action?

 

[sui generis]

Oh hai, I've been reading tonight, though I've been busy.

I am confused too. Can has moar information?

 

[Tamske]

(Speaking of unsolicited advice... I might suggest trying to laugh at those quirks instead of getting mad at them. It'll help you deal with them better, I think. "Oh man, there goes my ESTJ again, bossin' everyone around. Bless his little heart!")

You know what gets on my nerves?
When "there goes my little ESTJ again" he's RIGHT and I'm WRONG.
He's so much better than I am. He's more or less a constant given, always there, if you'd sculpt an allegory of Reliability it's him.
I'm the one who breaks down all the time, who needs to be forgiven, who is irrational(*) and flaky.
I hate this. I've always got the impression I have to be as good for him as he's for me, and I can't do that.
(*) I especially hate my irrational bursts. I know even while I'm doing it things are wrong. Mostly they are driven by the "I want to be as good for you as you are for me" thought, making the irrational circle complete and driving my ESTJ up the wall. Argh. I don't want. I'm currently trying to rewire my brain and add a "recognize pattern and cut short" to it.

... Is cooking a good meal every day enough?

 

[Redbone]

EJCC,

You made my day with your clarification--thanks so much! You need to get paid for this!!!!

 

[runvardh]

Um... I'm not sure what you mean. Read what? Read the log before taking action?

Before going into suggestion mode on a situation. I have a bad habbit of already having the t-shirt from a lot of suggestions friends and family have for me.