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Thread: Ask an ESTJ!

  1. #431
    lords of summer EJCC's Avatar
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    I know some of these have been answered already, but it's good to have multiple perspectives...

    To Fidelia and MDP2525: I'm really sorry... both of your situations suck. I know you're the ones who are supposed to be asking the questions, but do you think that ALL ESTJs are inherently selfish? Or have you both just had bad times with unhealthy ESTJs?

    Quote Originally Posted by fill View Post
    Very interesting. This sort of leads me to another question: how do you handle people's strong feelings? For a more complex specific example: How would you react if somebody wronged you, making you angry, then you realized the person that wronged you was much more angry/disappointed/frustrated with themselves than you could have ever been at them? I had a bit of a mental breakdown yesterday. Not sure how she perceived it...
    A response to the general question:
    I tend to react in bewilderment... If they're a friend, it's something like: "Jeez, this is serious business. They aren't doing so well! I know I need to do something, but I don't know what it is!" If someone I know is crying, or feeling down, I might offer to do something with them to distract them, e.g. come and watch a funny movie. Or I might give them a hug, or just sit next to them for a while, not saying anything. But I don't have many good tactical options, so if nothing I know how to do to comfort someone actually HELPS, I'll resort to, say, hugging them, and then leaving in embarrassment. But that's if I actually CARE. If they AREN'T my friend, I'll just go "Huh, that was intense. I wonder what that was all about..." and then leave.

    A response to the specific question:
    I guess I would pity them, and then go talk to them about it. Either that, or I'd feel awkward, and not talk to them, waiting for THEM to take the initiative. That is, AFTER I forgave them for the wrongdoing. Depending on how upset I got about it, it might take me a while to get to the pitying stage.
    Un-asked-for advice: I'd apologize, and tell her what you just told me/the other ESTJs about it, and then see what happens. Better to have closure, you know?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unique View Post
    I've noticed two kinds of ESTJ the sort of fartherly or motherly protective kind who look out for people and actually help the less detail orientated and realize intuition has a different use and powerful in other situations and then there's the ones who seem hell bent on changing other people to their "standard"

    Now obviously EJCC is the first one but I still none the less wonder if they are secretly frustrated and filled with hate?!
    Aw Thanks! I will say, though, that sometimes I wish that everyone agreed with me, and did things the way I do... but that's not very realistic, is it? Ya gotta be pragmatic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Unique View Post
    Do you feel you have an intolerance of other types (especially those mentioned above) and how does this manifest itself with you?

    I guess I'm mostly curious about this because intolerance of other personalities is quite foreign to me, when I don't like someone its generally BECAUSE they have some kind of intolerance towards me.
    I get frustrated when people do things that I don't understand, or can't relate to. I have this fixed idea in my mind of what "normal", or "common sense", is, and when people don't do things like that, I just don't understand! And naturally, since I think of my way as "common sense" (I'm sorry to say), I can feel like the ways of Perceivers is the "wrong way". (I mention them specifically because, even though I'm not in the least bit intolerant of iNtuitors, I can't figure out Perceivers to save my life.) If I could RELATE to you guys, I wouldn't think like that. Perhaps... if spontaneity and impulse ruled the day, I would feel better about it. But I live in a culture that values J - being on time, planning everything out, etc. If I lived somewhere like, say, Tajikistan, where no one is really expected to be "on time", then I would be totally fine with it. You see what I mean?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    Question about the ESTJ shadow:

    When you make an ESTJ angry (by effectively rendering her belief as invalid), why does she feel the need to ignore me? Is this the INFP shadow coming out?
    For me, it's like self-defense. When people question my beliefs, I take it VERY personally. It's like my ways are being attacked, and my instinct is to guard them. So, when I fight back, I'm really saying "You can't do this! You can't defeat me! There's fight in me yet! It's only a flesh wound! I'll bite your legs off! Come and get me, you bastard!"
    ... this is why, to answer your other question, I don't always get along with ENTPs. They cause that reaction in me all the time. (That's also why I was never on the debate team in high school or college... debates make me angry and irrational, neither of which is fun for me.)
    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"

    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
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    lawful good (D&D) / ravenclaw + wampus (HP) / boros legion (M:TG)
    conscientious > sensitive > serious (oldham)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

  2. #432
    lords of summer EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LostInNerSpace View Post
    In my experience ESTJs and INTPs typically don't work well together. We are like chalk and cheese. An ESTJ might typically ask for something and expect it to materialize. They exert authority and expect results. Everyone needs some motivation. INTPs, if like me, have to be motivated to the point of obsession for best results. The results can be very good.

    My previous employer was a great employer. They treated me very well. But they were unable to motivate me to the point of obsession. The result was a perpetual inability to focus, and mediocre results. Since leaving the results have been completely different. I am focused like a laser. So much so that the rest of my life is falling apart through neglect.
    Interesting situation... and I think I can explain it. I'd say that most ESTJs (and probably most ISTJs, too) can be VERY self-motivated, just by the fact that they get an assignment, and they do it. No need for any interest in the topic - just appropriate instructions. It's more FUN when you're interested, but it can be done otherwise. Of course, I've always been kind of a nerd, academically speaking (my GPA has always been very high), and not all ESTJs/ISTJs do. So I'm sure there are MANY exceptions.

    So anyways, it's good to know that this isn't the case for everybody. If more ESTJs knew that about INTPs, I'm sure that their working relationships would be a lot better. 'Cause I agree - those two types can work incredibly well together, under certain circumstances.
    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"

    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    lawful good (D&D) / ravenclaw + wampus (HP) / boros legion (M:TG)
    conscientious > sensitive > serious (oldham)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

  3. #433
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    EJCC - I don't know what to think about ESTJs. I am not characterizing them all based on the one I knew well. At the same time, I am curious to see what similarities there are in outlook.

    I know that different types have strengths and weaknesses particular to them. I find many things about ESTJs attractive. At the same time, I wonder if their general outlook will always be more focussed on themselves and their ambitions. I want to be a partner with someone and not a rose in their lapel. I have seen the same dynamic with my ENTJ uncle. I wonder if it's a TJ thing. It's not fair to ask someone to be different than who they are. I have a lot to offer someone, but I need someone who wants what I have to offer as well. So I guess some of this is sorting out what is specific to ESTJs and what is specific to the ESTJ I knew. I want to know for the future if this is an unworkable personality combo that will end up hurting each other, or if it's a basically workable one as long as both parties are healthy and willing to flex. I very much value what you have to say about this stuff EJCC and I don't ever want you to think that it is that I am just ragging on you guys as a type. It's more a matter of understanding who you are as a type and what makes you tick. Most of the time when there are misunderstandings it's only a function of lacking some piece of information. Since you are available as a source, I want to make the most of it and fill in the gaps where I may have overlooked something!

  4. #434
    "Everything in its place" fill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I get frustrated when people do things that I don't understand, or can't relate to. I have this fixed idea in my mind of what "normal", or "common sense", is, and when people don't do things like that, I just don't understand!
    What about unconventional-ism? I've always tended to do things normally but in a slightly different way, and I'll get this "You're so awkward!" statement thrown at me; my response is usually, "only if you make it that way." Sorry if I'm being too general. I can't really give specific examples.
    "Poor bastard. Wait 'till he sees the bats. "
    enneagram - 7/5/3

  5. #435
    lords of summer EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fill View Post
    What about unconventional-ism? I've always tended to do things normally but in a slightly different way, and I'll get this "You're so awkward!" statement thrown at me; my response is usually, "only if you make it that way." Sorry if I'm being too general. I can't really give specific examples.
    Hm... if it's only SLIGHTLY different, then there's no problem. I'll be able to process that, and relate to it. I might think it's "weird", but I won't HATE you for it. No way! But ENTPs... well, some of them make a point of questioning absolutely everything, for no real reason except that it's fun for them. Which is something that I'd NEVER do, and that I can't relate to so well.
    I hope that answered your question...

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I know that different types have strengths and weaknesses particular to them. I find many things about ESTJs attractive. At the same time, I wonder if their general outlook will always be more focussed on themselves and their ambitions. I want to be a partner with someone and not a rose in their lapel. I have seen the same dynamic with my ENTJ uncle. I wonder if it's a TJ thing. It's not fair to ask someone to be different than who they are. I have a lot to offer someone, but I need someone who wants what I have to offer as well.
    I know for a fact that ESTJ/INFJ relationships can work. But both parties need to be open-minded, committed, and accepting. I know this isn't a romantic relationship, but my mom's an INFJ and we're best friends. I would do almost anything for her.

    But nonetheless (warning: irrelevant rant time! prepare yourself!), I wonder sometimes if I can ever care about people in the same way that Fs do. I mean, I'm not exactly a nurturing type. I'm more willing to embrace the impersonal than the personal. I don't have a high tolerance for drama, or "girl talk". I'm not always the most sympathetic listener, and... well, I don't know how to express it, except for that. But on the other hand, if a loved one is feeling bad, I genuinely want to make them feel better. I'm not trying to use them for my personal gain, like a little kid might - e.g. "I'd better make Mommy feel better, 'cause she's no fun when she's sad" - I really want to solve their problems. I'm uber-protective of my friends and family, and I want them to be happy, and cared/provided for. So either way, I guess we can be more selfish, but we really do care, too.

    This is an example of how I might express my care (pretending that the guy is a girl (me)):





    p.s. The reason why I'm obsessing over this is that the common ground between you and MDP2525 - the "I get away and they reel me in again" thing - is something that I don't relate to, and that makes me very sad, and that I really would like to think that I don't do. Both of you have talked to me about your respective problems with those ESTJs, and the fact that you had to do that at ALL is a sign, to me, that they aren't typical ESTJs, and that they're probably both unhealthy in some way (MDP's being more healthy, probably, than yours). And also... I'm not sure how willing I am to consider the bolded statement. Maybe it's true? But that's depressing.
    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"

    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    lawful good (D&D) / ravenclaw + wampus (HP) / boros legion (M:TG)
    conscientious > sensitive > serious (oldham)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

  6. #436
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Thanks so much EJCC! I really don't want it to be true and I know that mine was under stress most of the time we were together (living in a place where people refuse to plan ahead on any front is highly stressful, as well as our undecided future together.) I guess what keeps me coming back to it is that I have always had SJs close to me in my life. I admired so many things about this ESTJ and when things were good, it truly was a great connection. When things are sorted out in my head it feels like at last I can tuck them away and then enjoy the good parts about the whole thing. I so appreciate your patience and willingness to answer questions without taking them as being a personal attack. I don't know if I could have done the same nearly so well as you do all the time on this thread. I really feel like I've learned a lot from you. I wonder how much difference there is between male and female ESTJs and I'm very glad that you have been able to be a "translater" of sorts for your type!

    PS Your picture made me laugh! It's so true and that's one of the things I love about you guys!

  7. #437

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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Aw Thanks! I will say, though, that sometimes I wish that everyone agreed with me, and did things the way I do... but that's not very realistic, is it? Ya gotta be pragmatic.

    I get frustrated when people do things that I don't understand, or can't relate to. I have this fixed idea in my mind of what "normal", or "common sense", is, and when people don't do things like that, I just don't understand! And naturally, since I think of my way as "common sense" (I'm sorry to say), I can feel like the ways of Perceivers is the "wrong way". (I mention them specifically because, even though I'm not in the least bit intolerant of iNtuitors, I can't figure out Perceivers to save my life.) If I could RELATE to you guys, I wouldn't think like that. Perhaps... if spontaneity and impulse ruled the day, I would feel better about it. But I live in a culture that values J - being on time, planning everything out, etc. If I lived somewhere like, say, Tajikistan, where no one is really expected to be "on time", then I would be totally fine with it. You see what I mean?
    Well for me perceiving has saved me boat loads of time by only completing what's absolutely necessary

    Lets take a look at two scenarios one where P is has advantage and the other J...

    A boss needs his P worker on a certain day in the near future he wasn't normally down for, the P says no because even though they have that day free something else may come up, the J worker makes a decision straight away and lets his boss know

    Now the second scenario is that the shopping needs to be done but the P type doesn't do this straight away and sits on it for a while, a day later the banking also needs to be done the P type then goes and knocks both tasks out of the way

    Now this isn't to say Js don't sometimes run into the "get two things done at once" situations, they do... but Ps actually go about creating these situations all the time often piling up 3, 4 and even more tasks to complete in one giant swoop

    I guess for me as a perceiver "more completed" doesn't necessarily mean "more productive"

    TBH I don't really know how true the "Ps are late" thing really is as I'm never late to anything important.... "sure a party at 7ish" I may be

    The key difference I've seen is Ps like to leave doors open
    Js like to close doors

    I see Js making more effort for less results around me all the time not saying this is true for all Js but it certainly begs the question... how much more productive is J really?

    From what I can tell if you had a balanced perceiver and balanced judger and let them both run 2 stores (for example) identical in nature I highly doubt one would run more productively than the other

    Not saying that you see P as unproductive but you mentioned you don't understand it and this seems to be the common misconception

    As for this being mostly a J world... statistically speaking there may be slightly more Js but its almost 50/50

    It appears more J because J has dominated since early times though these days I see more and more P (SP especially) starting to shine through as people are becoming tired of the same old approaches in this ever changing and evolving world

  8. #438

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    You know, being productive is only useful if you can finish your tasks on time. There is no point being productive once the deadlines have passed.

    Regarding your question about how much more productive is someone who favours the Judging function, maybe we can compare our schedules.

    I have 15 hours of classes, 10.5 hours of part time job, and 5 hours of volunteer and extra-curricular activities every week. I finish all my readings and assignments before every class and get straight A's. I also party every weekend and complete all my house choirs such as cleaning the apartment, getting groceries, repairing damages and what not.

  9. #439
    "Everything in its place" fill's Avatar
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    Do you have issues with trusting people's opinions- or people in general? I think she's realizing I'm one to be trusted, but it's a very slow process. I suppose I can't complain as I'm the same way in many aspects.
    "Poor bastard. Wait 'till he sees the bats. "
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  10. #440

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    I just discovered I can jump to any page! in a thread by clicking the down arrow to the right of the paging numbers.

    I'm going to see what else it can do. I'll post detailed instructions later!!

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