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Thread: Ask an ESTJ!

  1. #411
    Senior Member Max's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Do you think that ESTJs generally ever get to the point where they can be honest about their feelings to the people close to them? Especially about things they wish they had done differently or are embarrassed about etc. I think that it would not only make those close to them see them as a lot more human, but it would also be a relief of sorts to them. Is there anyone you could or would be completely honest with?
    It really does not come easily. It is a major struggle to talk about my feelings, even when it is with those closest to me. I do try though.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    What keeps you from saying that to someone? Is it that it gives them the power to hurt you? Do you just assume that they know already?
    That's a really good question. It may just be an ESTJ thing for saying something like that to be blocked off. All I can describe it as is frustrating when I'm trying to do that.
    Quote Originally Posted by fill View Post
    One more question: Is it annoying to ESTJs if I'm sort of an ass?
    It seems that to a lot of people, ESTJs are asses themselves. Since they come in all types and shapes and sizes, I couldn't judge them as a whole. Maybe a more specific description of what you're talking about could help.

  2. #412
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Thanks Max! Do you consciously think about how you feel about the people close to you, and wish you could express it, or is it just taken for granted within yourself and not really thought out? Can you understand why others need to hear it sometimes? Do you feel like you need to hear it from others (how they feel about you) or are you more likely to take that as a given until otherwise notified?

  3. #413
    Senior Member Max's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Thanks Max! Do you consciously think about how you feel about the people close to you, and wish you could express it, or is it just taken for granted within yourself and not really thought out?
    Oh yeah, I do think about it. Expressing it is just a completely different deal. I absolutely do love those who are closest to me with a passion, but I just don't openly express it. I'd naturally think that it would only lead to trouble with another T, and I did it once to an F, and that kind of wound up working against me in the end, but that's another story.


    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Can you understand why others need to hear it sometimes?
    Err... I dunno, maybe. Something just stops me from doing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Do you feel like you need to hear it from others (how they feel about you) or are you more likely to take that as a given until otherwise notified?
    That would be helpful, actually.

    Here's a little bit of background on me though: I'm a young ESTJ, and until four weeks ago, I was very socially deprived. I've only really had these few weeks to interact with others and to think about how I do it and that kind of thing. I don't have a lot to base my answers on or to describe how I feel about things, but I do think about it a lot, and Typology has helped a lot to understand myself and others and why they make decisions and such differently than I do.

  4. #414
    lords of summer EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fill View Post
    Are you frugal? Like, to a point of no return?
    I save money. I try to spend responsibly. But I splurge on a few things, e.g. CDs. So... not "to a point of no return", necessarily, but yeah, I'm frugal.

    Is family a big part of your life?
    YES. Definitely. They're my best friends. Definitely on the top of my priority list.

    Do you ever embarrass yourself or get other people angry at you from an honest mistake and feel awful afterwords? I find it interesting that the same functions that get ESTJs into bad situations are the same ones that make ENFP's lives so insane.
    Usually, when I get embarrassed by things and feel awful about them, no one else noticed or cared. Either that, or they forgot quickly, whereas I remember... and stay embarrassed... for a REALLY LONG TIME. Years, often.

    If you know someone (me) has "feelings," are you conscious of hurting them, but not in a sympathetic way? For example, if you think of something you said to someone, would you say to yourself, "I feel bad for saying that," or, "I don't want to hurt their feelings"?
    Interesting question. I'd never really thought about this. I guess true sympathy is hardly ever involved, with me. Usually, when I look back on something inconsiderate that I've said, my reactions have been
    1. Embarrassment, and
    2. Self loathing.
    e.g. "How could I have been such an idiot??? Now that person hates me, and I don't know what to do. Stupid stupid stupid!"
    But I don't really empathize with the person. I guess I should, but I don't. I'm not that good with empathy...

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    EJCC - I just noticed now that you did answer my queries. Thank you so much. I think that guilt=avoidance thing makes several things from his past make sense. I kind of attributed the emails to loneliness in a new place. I'm guessing that means that as soon as things are better established for him, that will be the end of it. This is what frustrates me about the whole thing. No one likes to feel that they are just there for someone else's convenience.
    Think about it this way: he needs somebody, and you're there, and he trusts you. Plenty of people are in situations like that, and usually they don't think of it as using them, or anything like that.

    Do you think that ESTJs generally ever get to the point where they can be honest about their feelings to the people close to them? Especially about things they wish they had done differently or are embarrassed about etc. I think that it would not only make those close to them see them as a lot more human, but it would also be a relief of sorts to them. Is there anyone you could or would be completely honest with?
    I'd be honest with my mom, and with close friends. But some things... the things that I'm really, REALLY embarrassed about, I may never say to anyone. Ever. I guess it would make people feel better about me if I did say stuff like that... and I do try to (more so than ESTJ men, probably, because of gender culture differences (girls are encouraged to open up to others).

    One of the things that I discovered too was that my ESTJ actually cared incredibly deeply, but often did not express it verbally (or even on his face) and I never realized how much I mattered to him except through chance comments from other people or the odd time when I realized I had hurt him unintentionally and he reacted angrily. In some ways I think he felt things more deeply than I did, but I never realized that for a very long time. What keeps you from saying that to someone? Is it that it gives them the power to hurt you? Do you just assume that they know already?
    For me, it's that whenever I try to express those emotions, it sounds stupid. Any attempts to express those emotions are usually too shallow or too cliched. And I never feel like there's an appropriate time to express those feelings. And it's sappy, and... well, it's awkward...
    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"

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    want to ask me something? go for it!

  5. #415
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Thanks both of you for your input. So what I'm getting is that there is a lot of embarrassment, potential self-loathing, but not so much thinking of how that impacts the other person. Is that accurate? Is it mostly because you have such high expectations of yourself or because you don't want to fall short of what others might expect of you? This coupled with the avoidance that embarrassment results in and the reluctance to express any of what is going on internally(positive or negative) makes it difficult to ever resolve problems and can create a lot of insecurities in a relationship. Have you experienced this, or does it mostly just depend on whether you are dating a thinking or a feeling type? For me, what I found very frustrating is that I did give the other person all the information to work with, yet I never got the same in return, leaving them holding all the cards. Makes for great frustration and insecurity in where you're at with someone and even then it's still seems like it's all about them. I don't mean that unkindly, but rather am trying to understand what is actually going on internally. Most misunderstandings I've found are based on a lack of information somewhere.

    EJCC: Think about it this way: he needs somebody, and you're there, and he trusts you. Plenty of people are in situations like that, and usually they don't think of it as using them, or anything like that.

    No and I wouldn't think of it that way either, except that as soon as there are people to fill that spot, the people that help him through are dropped. I'm not sure if I'm up for that even though I do want to keep in touch. Just seems like it's usually all about him. Maybe I'm wrong though. It ties in with what Steph was saying earlier about ESTJs sensing when you're distancing yourself and reeling you back in again. I don't like feeling manipulated and I still care enough that I don't want to just forget about it. At the same time I don't want to be a sucker.

  6. #416
    Rainy Day Woman MDP2525's Avatar
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    Fidelia your post above....I can relate to that last paragraph.

    I don't know what to say other than the ESTJ I know does the same thing. It's like a cycle. What makes it different from other friends is the intensity in which they focus on you when they do. That's what throws you off. I have friends who appear and disappear from my life but they are peripheral anyway.

    It's strange but the last time I helped ESTJ out (he asked me to) he told me he'd make it up to me and do something for me. Well, after I helped him out, he started to postpone his end of the bargain. To the point where I called him out and I told him that every time I help him out I always feel played because he always procrastinates with his end of things. He replied that he wasn't using me and it wasn't like that.

    Eh. I know he doesn't feel like he does this but I don't think he grasps how his actions come across. I just attribute it to selfishness. I can't think of what else it could be. If actions speak louder than words, like I believe they do, then his actions are telling me that his needs trump my own. Point blank. I just say whatever and let it be. That's who he is right now and I can't change it. Concentrate on yourself. You can still be there for him Fids, just make yourself the priority. He'll be there. He always will.
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  7. #417

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    I asked a question quite some time ago about what you thought about perceiving types and you gave a response.

    Anyway I have another question somewhat related firstly I will start with a quote from personality page

    "ESTJs also do not have much tolerance for inefficiency or messiness. They dislike to see mistakes repeated. Consequently, ESTJ parents may have a difficult time with their children who have Intuitive or Perceiving preferences. They are extremely practical, and have no understanding or value for the creative imaginations of highly Intuitive children. They will also have little patience with the unstructured, "go with the flow" attitude of their Perceiving children. This impatience with other types is a potential downfall for the ESTJ which may manifest itself in an ugly way if the rift occurs with their own children. The ESTJ should remember that what is right for them is not necessarily right for their children."

    Do you feel you have an intolerance of other types (especially those mentioned above) and how does this manifest itself with you?

    I guess I'm mostly curious about this because intolerance of other personalities is quite foreign to me, when I don't like someone its generally BECAUSE they have some kind of intolerance towards me.

  8. #418

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    In my experience ESTJs and INTPs typically don't work well together. We are like chalk and cheese. An ESTJ might typically ask for something and expect it to materialize. They exert authority and expect results. Everyone needs some motivation. INTPs, if like me, have to be motivated to the point of obsession for best results. The results can be very good.

    My previous employer was a great employer. They treated me very well. But they were unable to motivate me to the point of obsession. The result was a perpetual inability to focus, and mediocre results. Since leaving the results have been completely different. I am focused like a laser. So much so that the rest of my life is falling apart through neglect.

  9. #419

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    Yeah I have noticed this, though some nice ESTJs can be like the INTPs "eyes" looking out for the details the INTP misses while we look at the big picture, though if the detail is irrelevant this is when problems occur

    I've noticed two kinds of ESTJ the sort of fartherly or motherly protective kind who look out for people and actually help the less detail orientated and realize intuition has a different use and powerful in other situations and then there's the ones who seem hell bent on changing other people to their "standard"

    Now obviously EJCC is the first one but I still none the less wonder if they are secretly frustrated and filled with hate?!

  10. #420

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unique View Post
    Now obviously EJCC is the first one but I still none the less wonder if they are secretly frustrated and filled with hate?!
    Wouldn't surprise me. Hate is extremely counterproductive. You can't go back in time to undo what has been done, you can easily undo what's coming. The typical ESTJ is not so good at seeing what's coming down the road. He or she might look upon this as disrespectful and out of line--another reason ESTJs and INTPs don't work well together. What an ESTJ might consider disrespectful an INTP might see as common sense.

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