[ESTJ] Ask an ESTJ!

[Craft]

So, how do I properly approach an ESTJ? I know one but we don't really click well with the topics. I talk about one topic, he ignores. He talks about another, I ignore. It really doesn't seem natural.

So, how do I befriend an ESTJ?

 

[EJCC]

So, how do I properly approach an ESTJ? I know one but we don't really click well with the topics. I talk about one topic, he ignores. He talks about another, I ignore. It really doesn't seem natural.

So, how do I befriend an ESTJ?

Does he ACTUALLY ignore you, or does he just give you a brief response and not try to continue the conversation? 'Cause the latter of those two options is something I've noticed in other ESTJs, and something I tend to do myself.

What I would try doing, in response to both of your questions, is doing a little bit of investigating about him. Get to know some of his friends, and see what he's like. That should tell you some more things he's interested in, and then you can have some guaranteed topics for the next time the two of you are in a casual, conversational atmosphere.

I will tell you, though, that just because you don't have substantive conversation with him, doesn't mean you won't later. For the first six months that I knew the ENFJ guy who would grow to be my best friend, we only talked about YouTube videos. JUST that topic! ESTJs can be cautious people in terms of making the first move, so if the two of you end up having some chemistry, and if things go smoothly, you'll be friends. But don't look for open displays of friendly affection - an ESTJ's sweet gestures can be hard to appreciate, for some, because they don't realize how much meaning the ESTJs put into the sweet gestures.

Wow, I'm going too far with this topic! Lol. Either way, it's either all that, or he's genuinely not interested in talking to you, in which case you'd have to work a lot harder to get him to be your friend.

 

[Craft]

Does he ACTUALLY ignore you, or does he just give you a brief response and not try to continue the conversation? 'Cause the latter of those two options is something I've noticed in other ESTJs, and something I tend to do myself.

very very precisely. =)

What I would try doing, in response to both of your questions, is doing a little bit of investigating about him. Get to know some of his friends, and see what he's like. That should tell you some more things he's interested in, and then you can have some guaranteed topics for the next time the two of you are in a casual, conversational atmosphere.

I will tell you, though, that just because you don't have substantive conversation with him, doesn't mean you won't later. For the first six months that I knew the ENFJ guy who would grow to be my best friend, we only talked about YouTube videos. JUST that topic! ESTJs can be cautious people in terms of making the first move, so if the two of you end up having some chemistry, and if things go smoothly, you'll be friends. But don't look for open displays of friendly affection - an ESTJ's sweet gestures can be hard to appreciate, for some, because they don't realize how much meaning the ESTJs put into the sweet gestures.

Wow, I'm going too far with this topic! Lol. Either way, it's either all that, or he's genuinely not interested in talking to you, in which case you'd have to work a lot harder to get him to be your friend.

It's been a almost 2 years actually. And all he did was continosuly answer in a succinct manner which I'm getting the impression of me being disliked. Sometimes when I get more stereotypically manly, he shows interest. The facade doesn't last very long though.

 

[EJCC]

It's been a almost 2 years actually. And all he did was continosuly answer in a succinct manner which I'm getting the impression of me being disliked. Sometimes when I get more stereotypically manly, he shows interest. The facade doesn't last very long though.

Huh. Yeah, that sounds like he doesn't like you very much. What I might do in your situation would be to find out from someone what exactly it is that he doesn't like, and whether it's the type of thing that can be fixed, e.g. if it's a small behavior that you can stop doing in front of him, or if it's based on a misconception that you can prove incorrect. If you have mutual friends, they're who I'd go to for that info.

The other option I can think of would be giving up, and just accepting that he doesn't like you and there's nothing you can do about it. I obviously wouldn't go for this option unless it's a last resort.

One other question, though, since I missed the "he talks, i ignore" part of your earlier post: Does that mean that he's actually tried to make conversation with you before, and it didn't work? Follow-up question: Do you share any common interests that you can think of?

 

[Rainne]

Hi ESTJs.

Is there any point in arguing with you? You always seem to think you're right. =(

 

[EJCC]

Hi ESTJs.

Is there any point in arguing with you? You always seem to think you're right. =(

There's absolutely a point in arguing with us. We're not as rigid as other types (cough INFJs cough), even though we seem rigid. If you show us irrefutable evidence of something, you can convince us. We just won't want to admit that we were wrong, because we're prideful creatures...

An example of an ESTJ being convinced that something is true=
ESTJ: That's not true! What about ____ and _____? Everyone knows about THOSE.
xxxx: Well, actually, check out these statistics from (insert credible source here). Also, here's why your logic is wrong... ___________.
ESTJ: ... Huh. Okay.

The "huh. okay." is their way of saying "I'm convinced now. I'll register that as fact from now on, and argue your side if the argument comes up again."
It could also mean: "God damn it, you're right. I can't believe I just spent all that time arguing the wrong side! I'll make a dismissive statement so we can move on to a different topic and I can avoid my severe and acute embarrassment."

Speaking of that, check out posts 745-8: http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/sj-guardhouse/17823-ask-estj-75.html#post1085727

 

[EJCC]

Also, a question for other ESTJs: How do you act when you're around people you hate? I want to see if what I do is typical.

 

[Rainne]

There's absolutely a point in arguing with us. We're not as rigid as other types (cough INFJs cough), even though we seem rigid. If you show us irrefutable evidence of something, you can convince us. We just won't want to admit that we were wrong, because we're prideful creatures...

An example of an ESTJ being convinced that something is true=
ESTJ: That's not true! What about ____ and _____? Everyone knows about THOSE.
xxxx: Well, actually, check out these statistics from (insert credible source here). Also, here's why your logic is wrong... ___________.
ESTJ: ... Huh. Okay.

The "huh. okay." is their way of saying "I'm convinced now. I'll register that as fact from now on, and argue your side if the argument comes up again."
It could also mean: "God damn it, you're right. I can't believe I just spent all that time arguing the wrong side! I'll make a dismissive statement so we can move on to a different topic and I can avoid my severe and acute embarrassment."

Speaking of that, check out posts 745-8: http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/sj-guardhouse/17823-ask-estj-75.html#post1085727

Okay.

 

[Craft]

One other question, though, since I missed the "he talks, i ignore" part of your earlier post: Does that mean that he's actually tried to make conversation with you before, and it didn't work?

Yes with a smiling face.

Him: Hey, this guy is X and Y haha.
Me: I just smile, pause and continue on something else.

I just don't have a comment really. At times, I think I ignored him because it seemed unimportant to me.

---

Another ESTJ I know seems to never start a conversation with me. It's always me who initiates(and i'm an introvert) and what I always get left with is a "No." "Yes." "This is X." I ask only about 3-5 questions so I won't seem annoying. But when I argue about something, he really shows off his enthusiasm. Those are very short though.

Follow-up question: Do you share any common interests that you can think of?

Absolutely nothing with the first one. He likes women and tries to joke around which I don't think are funny.

Videogames with the other one. Except I've tried talking about videogames and still he does the "one answer, now go away" conversation.

So, what are the signs of an ESTJ disliking you?

 

[Fidelia]

The ones I know are generally schmoozers (not necessarily in a bad way though) and you would never know for sure, unless you really made them mad, in which case they'd tell you off. The business like answer seems more to me like them just not considering the information that important right then and them being focussed on whatever mattered more at the time. At the same time, sometimes it seems as if those who are lower in rank could be deemed less important in terms of either social standing or information (both of which matter a bit) and therefore may command less attention. Where are you EJCC?

(Oh yeah and good call on the INFJ stubbornness/not changing their mind thing. It's a shortcoming of ours...I sure wish I had understood years ago though about how ESTJs sneakily admit defeat and change their minds. I just assumed because they didn't acknowledge it and I likely wouldn't change my mind that they weren't doing it either.)

 

[EJCC]

Yes with a smiling face.

Him: Hey, this guy is X and Y haha.
Me: I just smile, pause and continue on something else.

I just don't have a comment really. At times, I think I ignored him because it seemed unimportant to me.

Sad! Doesn't look like you guys are very compatible. However, it looks like, if you shared any common interests, you'd get along swimmingly.

Another ESTJ I know seems to never start a conversation with me. It's always me who initiates(and i'm an introvert) and what I always get left with is a "No." "Yes." "This is X." I ask only about 3-5 questions so I won't seem annoying. But when I argue about something, he really shows off his enthusiasm. Those are very short though.

...
Videogames with the other one. Except I've tried talking about videogames and still he does the "one answer, now go away" conversation.

So, what are the signs of an ESTJ disliking you?

I think the signs that this guy is showing are excellent examples of signs that an ESTJ dislikes you, especially since he ignored you even when you brought up a favorite topic. ESTJs LOVE talking at people about their passions, so the fact that that didn't work is probably a sign. (It's sort of the "maybe if I ignore them they'll leave me alone" mentality.)

HOWEVER... to fully answer that question (even though this isn't really applicable), I should mention that, if other ESTJs are like me, they can easily set aside their hatred for a person if they know, and have accepted, that they have to be able to work with them. One of my least favorite people in the world (let's call him T) thinks that I like him, because a long time ago, I realized that since T and I have a lot of mutual friends, I'm never going to be able to avoid him, so I might as well be cordial. Even though I'm colder towards him than I am towards other people, if you didn't know me very well, you would have no idea that I disliked him even remotely, let alone that his personality includes almost everything I hate in a person.

The ones I know are generally schmoozers (not necessarily in a bad way though) and you would never know for sure, unless you really made them mad, in which case they'd tell you off. The business like answer seems more to me like them just not considering the information that important right then and them being focussed on whatever mattered more at the time. At the same time, sometimes it seems as if those who are lower in rank could be deemed less important in terms of either social standing or information (both of which matter a bit) and therefore may command less attention. Where are you EJCC?

Um... What do you mean? Do you mean, where am I in terms of rank? Or...?

(Oh yeah and good call on the INFJ stubbornness/not changing their mind thing. It's a shortcoming of ours...I sure wish I had understood years ago though about how ESTJs sneakily admit defeat and change their minds. I just assumed because they didn't acknowledge it and I likely wouldn't change my mind that they weren't doing it either.)

Yeah, I get the impression that ESTJ humiliation/pride has ruined many relationships It's really too bad. If only more people knew.

 

[Fidelia]

I think ESTJs are get it done kind of people. I don't mean by that that they are cold, calculating and mercenary. However, they are unlikely to spend ages Fe-ishly exchanging pleasantries for no particular purpose. When they do, it tends to be 1) Because they are interested in the subject at hand 2) They think the person has information that they would like to know more about 3) The person is someone whom they respect and like or who is their boss 4) Exchanging pleasantries with that person could increase their social standing in some way or would increase their network of contacts. If the person isn't someone who meets any of these criteria, they may not be rude, but probably other things are going to take precedent.

So I guess by lower "rank", I mean that the person neither will enhance social life/social standing nor is someone the ESTJ has to answer to.

EDIT: I totally misread all that! What I meant was, "Are you around her to confirm or re-interpret what I just said in more accurate terms?" Not, "Where do you rank socially?".

 

[Jeffster]

There's absolutely a point in arguing with us. We're not as rigid as other types (cough INFJs cough), even though we seem rigid. If you show us irrefutable evidence of something, you can convince us. We just won't want to admit that we were wrong, because we're prideful creatures...

An example of an ESTJ being convinced that something is true=
ESTJ: That's not true! What about ____ and _____? Everyone knows about THOSE.
xxxx: Well, actually, check out these statistics from (insert credible source here). Also, here's why your logic is wrong... ___________.
ESTJ: ... Huh. Okay.

The "huh. okay." is their way of saying "I'm convinced now. I'll register that as fact from now on, and argue your side if the argument comes up again."
It could also mean: "God damn it, you're right. I can't believe I just spent all that time arguing the wrong side! I'll make a dismissive statement so we can move on to a different topic and I can avoid my severe and acute embarrassment."

Yeah, I was part of a scene like this recently because my ESTJ co-worker challenged me on dates. And I know my dates when it's something significant. In this case, I proved that I actually knew the dates of events in his own life better than he did. You see, he left our company in the Summer of 2005 and came back in early 09. He said he left in 2006, and was so confident about it. I knew he was wrong, because I had only been in the office a month or so before he left, and I moved into the office in May 2005. He actually bet me lunch and we looked it up and I was right. He then stated another inaccurate thing about one of our stores opening before he left, when it was actually a few months after. He bet me on that one too, and stopped before even looking it up, because he realized he was wrong, and said "I owe you two lunches." He then changed the subject quickly, but bought me lunch the next day. I'm still waiting on the second one.

 

[EJCC]

Yeah, I was part of a scene like this recently because my ESTJ co-worker challenged me on dates. And I know my dates when it's something significant. In this case, I proved that I actually knew the dates of events in his own life better than he did. You see, he left our company in the Summer of 2005 and came back in early 09. He said he left in 2006, and was so confident about it. I knew he was wrong, because I had only been in the office a month or so before he left, and I moved into the office in May 2005. He actually bet me lunch and we looked it up and I was right. He then stated another inaccurate thing about one of our stores opening before he left, when it was actually a few months after. He bet me on that one too, and stopped before even looking it up, because he realized he was wrong, and said "I owe you two lunches." He then changed the subject quickly, but bought me lunch the next day. I'm still waiting on the second one.

Oh my god that would be so embarrassing for him! I relate. So typical ESTJ, though, to fess up to being wrong by getting you the lunch. I'm in a church choir, and when you're late or forget a pencil, you have to use the "pencil of shame", which is a HUGE pink pencil with a pencil sharpener hanging off the end that jingles when you use it. I was late one time to rehearsal, and a lot of people laughed because I turned bright red, walked straight to the choir director, grabbed the pencil of shame, walked to my seat, and pretended as if nothing had happened.

EDIT:

I think ESTJs are get it done kind of people. I don't mean by that that they are cold, calculating and mercenary. However, they are unlikely to spend ages Fe-ishly exchanging pleasantries for no particular purpose. When they do, it tends to be 1) Because they are interested in the subject at hand 2) They think the person has information that they would like to know more about 3) The person is someone whom they respect and like or who is their boss 4) Exchanging pleasantries with that person could increase their social standing in some way or would increase their network of contacts. If the person isn't someone who meets any of these criteria, they may not be rude, but probably other things are going to take precedent.

So I guess by lower "rank", I mean that the person neither will enhance social life/social standing nor is someone the ESTJ has to answer to.

EDIT: I totally misread all that! What I meant was, "Are you around her to confirm or re-interpret what I just said in more accurate terms?" Not, "Where do you rank socially?".

Oh, gotcha. Yeah, I agree with your statement. However, the ignoring that Craft mentioned, i.e. nonstop coldness for two years, even with topics the person is interested in, goes a bit farther than normal. But besides that, yeah, I completely agree. I especially agree with the paragraph of yours that I quoted above. So true!

 

[Max]

Hi ESTJs.

Is there any point in arguing with you? You always seem to think you're right. =(

Myself, I'm generally not into arguing so much. While individuals of certain other types tend to enjoy debate and that type of thing, I care more about getting to the bottom line. It can be fun to go at it sometimes with friends, but I don't get such a rush out of a heated argument most of the time. And by that point, they figure that arguing with me would be foolish anyway! So, the answer to your question would depend on how you chose to look at it, I suppose.

Also, a question for other ESTJs: How do you act when you're around people you hate? I want to see if what I do is typical.

I don't really hate anyone. There are people I don't like so much though, typically people that I think are weird, really cocky, don't take good care of themselves, etc. I just tend to not acknowledge them unless they talk to me first. But like I said before, I don't actually hate any of these people- just not so fond of them.

 

[Craft]

If I say, "don't plan things for me and i know what I'm doing", would that hurt the ESTJ's feelings?

I value self-decision. I know this person has good intentions, but really I prefer making my own decisions.

----

Another question:

What's your view on silent, individualistic, non-social people? How much do you value socializing?

 

[EJCC]

I don't really hate anyone. There are people I don't like so much tough, typically people that I think are weird, really cocky, don't take good care of themselves, etc. I just tend to not acknowledge them unless they talk to me first. But like I said before, I don't actually hate any of these people- just not so fond of them.

Wow. See, I do hate certain people - i.e. the people who are horrible and rude to everyone, never have anything to contribute, and have hurt those close to me. (That last part is key. I can deal with douchebags fine, but when it gets personal, THAT'S when the hate switch comes on.) Do you know anyone (roughly) like that?

If I say, "don't plan things for me and i know what I'm doing", would that hurt the ESTJ's feelings?

I value self-decision. I know this person has good intentions, but really I prefer making my own decisions.

Depends on how you say it, and depends on how much the ESTJ trusts you. I'm fairly certain that their feelings wouldn't get hurt, but they might get frustrated. For example, if someone said that to me and I didn't trust them, my automatic (and unspoken) response would be something along the lines of "But you DON'T know what you're doing! I can't ensure that you make the RIGHT decision unless you tell me that you're going to do things my way!" But with someone I trust, the automatic (and spoken) response would be "Okay. I'll get off your back. Sorry about that."

Another question:

What's your view on silent, individualistic, non-social people? How much do you value socializing?

It depends on how silent they are. I have a hard time interacting with very quiet people, because I need give and take when I talk with people. Don't get me wrong - many introverts (including the ones I'm friends with) are capable of, and enjoy, this sort of give and take - but I really don't like being around the other ones. I respect them, and I like them, but I give them space.
Lots and lots of space.

I do value socializing, though. But I also define "socializing" as involving two people, and not simply more than that - in other words, if I'm hanging out with one friend, that's "socializing", too. So, with that definition in mind, I value socializing to a degree that most of my friends don't understand. Life without it is horrible. (Of course, I need some alone time every once and a while, but not for too long.)

I hope those answered your questions well enough If not, I'll try again.

 

[Max]

What's your view on silent, individualistic, non-social people? How much do you value socializing?

It depends completely on the individual. Most often, there's something else wrong with them that makes them that way- drug user, strange appearance, serious mental issue, etc., and I don't care much to mix with those people. If they're just kind of a loner, on the other hand, with not much else separating them from everyone else, then I might be interested... particularly if it's a hot woman. Haha.

I mean, I was somewhat of a loner myself, especially in high school. Two reasons behind that: one was that I just didn't have the best social skills and that I didn't get along so well with a lot of people, and the other was that I knew I wanted to permanently move out of the state I originally lived in and I didn't want to become too close with anyone. So I almost was one of those people- but I just don't have it in me to be silent and non-social, as you describe it.

 

[Max]

Wow. See, I do hate certain people - i.e. the people who are horrible and rude to everyone, never have anything to contribute, and have hurt those close to me. (That last part is key. I can deal with douchebags fine, but when it gets personal, THAT'S when the hate switch comes on.) Do you know anyone (roughly) like that?

I don't think I do. I'm in a pretty good community as it is, and people generally like me around here. The people who are closest to me, I mean... they're not even really all that close. It's mostly guys who already have girlfriends, so I came into their life after the girlfriend as opposed to before, so I have significantly less value to them than that of what they have to me, but I guess I'm just rambling now beyond the point. I haven't had any situation where anyone was hurting those people, but if I start to suspect something, I will be absolutely serious about it and I won't just let it slide. God forbid anything like that ever happens, because it won't be pretty. I tend not to be easily bothered by things, but it would be different I'm sure.

 

[Tamske]

If I say, "don't plan things for me and i know what I'm doing", would that hurt the ESTJ's feelings?

Probably not. I guess the ESTJ isn't aware he (she?) is planning things for you. It's just so natural for them to do that. They do it as easily as an ENTP switches train of thought and as easily as a normal human being breathes. They plan things early and think everybody should do that. They really think you'll be happier if your work is done first, like good judging people do. I've had a conflict like that with my husband. The gist of the conversation was somewhat like this.
ESTJ: "I wish you would finish your projects and relax instead of starting new ones before the previous one is finished! You aren't happy like that."
Tamske: But I can't be happy unless I'm working on crazy projects. I don't want to relax. I would be totally frustrated if I really HAVE to relax and know I could use the time to paint or build a fortress or write a story. I wouldn't be happy if I haven't at least one idea in my mind wanting to be experimented out."
ESTJ: "But you're frustrated too when you realize you haven't worked on your big project."
Tamske: "That's true..."

What I want to say is... it's perfectly possible to make them understand that their way of working isn't your way. Just be reasonable and... BLUNT. You can't expect them to understand you don't like their meddling if you just give them the cold shoulder or anything.
"Say, are you aware you're doing this? I really don't like it. I'd prefer..."
Probably you'll get a "but" or two, but if you stand your ground you'll get something like "let's try". Try and prove yourself.
There's nothing that convinces an ESTJ better than seeing that things do work out.

I've had the "let's try" answer on "Say, I've fallen in love with you. Care to be my boyfriend?" and on "Want to give me a deadline for my novel?"
Both have worked.