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Thread: Ask an ESTJ!

  1. #351
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    So is it typical for ESTJs to be hard asses? My dad is an ISTJ, but he has more of an E at work. He expects things to be done on time and right, and God help you if you're lacking either way. He's been known to be quite overbearing at work. He's not a very good teacher, as he gets impatient quickly and starts yelling at his "student" (which I had to put up with for one year while I was learning how to drive with him.) He's made a couple of his workers cry before. He blames it on his job, but I'm not sure. What do you think?
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  2. #352
    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    EJCC, a few posts ago, you said something about ESTJs being very affected by who they spend their time with/their environment. Would you say that ESTJs points of view are shaped by the "normal" within their particular circle of people? Would their behaviour vary depending on those with whom they were spending the most time? Does this mean that their perspective on good and bad behaviour has shifted, or does it mean that they are easily swayed (you wouldn't think that, but...), or do they take on the outlooks of the people they are with at the time? Is this a matter of trying to impress people? Is it a way of adjusting to what is? I'd be curious to hear more of your thoughts on this subject.

  3. #353
    came back haunted Array EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SubjectA View Post
    So is it typical for ESTJs to be hard asses? My dad is an ISTJ, but he has more of an E at work. He expects things to be done on time and right, and God help you if you're lacking either way. He's been known to be quite overbearing at work. He's not a very good teacher, as he gets impatient quickly and starts yelling at his "student" (which I had to put up with for one year while I was learning how to drive with him.) He's made a couple of his workers cry before. He blames it on his job, but I'm not sure. What do you think?
    It really depends. For me, it depends on how happy/patient I am. If I'm feeling irritated, and I want something to get done, and someone/something is getting in my way, then yes, I'll probably be a hard-ass. (With regard to the ISTJ you know, if he says it's because of his job, I'm inclined to agree with him. If he hates his job, it makes sense to me that he would be less patient with things not going his way. Of course, I can be like that sometimes even if I was previously in a good mood...)

    Not sure if that's true for all ESTJs, though... I'll wait and see if T-guy posts.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    EJCC, a few posts ago, you said something about ESTJs being very affected by who they spend their time with/their environment. Would you say that ESTJs points of view are shaped by the "normal" within their particular circle of people? Would their behaviour vary depending on those with whom they were spending the most time? Does this mean that their perspective on good and bad behaviour has shifted, or does it mean that they are easily swayed (you wouldn't think that, but...), or do they take on the outlooks of the people they are with at the time? Is this a matter of trying to impress people? Is it a way of adjusting to what is? I'd be curious to hear more of your thoughts on this subject.
    The following rant probably applies to most SJs, not just ESTJs. But I'm not sure.

    I think that ESTJs are easily swayed by those whom they're closest to, and/or the people with whom they spend the most time. I would say that it's peer pressure, but I was shaped more by my parents than by my peers, since I was an only child and spent a lot of time with them. Whatever the norms are in that particular group (for some: peers, for me: friends) become the norms for the ESTJ; the unwritten rules in their life and their behavior. If an ESTJ switched groups, and spent a lot of time all of a sudden with a new group, I think they'd start acting differently in a subconscious effort to blend in. I'm not sure if it's a need to impress, as much as it is... instinct? I don't try, consciously, to follow the norms laid down by my peers and family - I just soaked them up like a sponge, and now they're a part of me.

    I don't think we're easily swayed by things that aren't considered "normal". However, if the behavior of a newly dominant group is very different from the behavior of the previous group, even if we're resistant at first, we WILL succumb at some point, if we stay in that group for an extended period of time, because we instinctively blend. This applies in other situations, too, and imho, it's the reason why other types here think that we're hypocrites.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nørrsken impersonating EJCC
    It's strange. I keep banning morons, but they keep signing up? What is this?
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  4. #354
    Iron Maiden Array fidelia's Avatar
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    Thank you! That clears up a lot of things for me. I really wondered if everything had just been a sham with my ESTJ because he doesn't seem like an easily swayed person, and yet I saw him change when he was around me from what he had been like, and again when he concluded we wouldn't be together forever and he started hanging around with people who had different values. Several others commented on the morphing and yet it seemed like four years is a long time to try to keep up appearances. Is this something you guys are aware of? Does it bother you, or are you okay with it? Do you see it as an adaptive skill, or more as an involuntary change? I realize now that this is part of why I legitimately was bothered by the friends he sometimes chose, because they did affect how he viewed the world and also how he acted and what he said, over time.

  5. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    It really depends. For me, it depends on how happy/patient I am. If I'm feeling irritated, and I want something to get done, and someone/something is getting in my way, then yes, I'll probably be a hard-ass. (With regard to the ISTJ you know, if he says it's because of his job, I'm inclined to agree with him. If he hates his job, it makes sense to me that he would be less patient with things not going his way. Of course, I can be like that sometimes even if I was previously in a good mood...)

    Not sure if that's true for all ESTJs, though... I'll wait and see if T-guy posts.


    The following rant probably applies to most SJs, not just ESTJs. But I'm not sure.

    I think that ESTJs are easily swayed by those whom they're closest to, and/or the people with whom they spend the most time. I would say that it's peer pressure, but I was shaped more by my parents than by my peers, since I was an only child and spent a lot of time with them. Whatever the norms are in that particular group (for some: peers, for me: friends) become the norms for the ESTJ; the unwritten rules in their life and their behavior. If an ESTJ switched groups, and spent a lot of time all of a sudden with a new group, I think they'd start acting differently in a subconscious effort to blend in. I'm not sure if it's a need to impress, as much as it is... instinct? I don't try, consciously, to follow the norms laid down by my peers and family - I just soaked them up like a sponge, and now they're a part of me.

    I don't think we're easily swayed by things that aren't considered "normal". However, if the behavior of a newly dominant group is very different from the behavior of the previous group, even if we're resistant at first, we WILL succumb at some point, if we stay in that group for an extended period of time, because we instinctively blend. This applies in other situations, too, and imho, it's the reason why other types here think that we're hypocrites.
    You know what, I can agree in the sense that I do change my behaviour just a little bit depending on the group of people I'm with. I'm not sure if that's only for SJs though...more input from others maybe?

  6. #356
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    Quote Originally Posted by SubjectA View Post
    So is it typical for ESTJs to be hard asses? My dad is an ISTJ, but he has more of an E at work. He expects things to be done on time and right, and God help you if you're lacking either way. He's been known to be quite overbearing at work. He's not a very good teacher, as he gets impatient quickly and starts yelling at his "student" (which I had to put up with for one year while I was learning how to drive with him.) He's made a couple of his workers cry before. He blames it on his job, but I'm not sure. What do you think?
    I'm a hard ass myself when I'm in a superior position like a supervisor or a manager. It's just hard to control people when you don't have the authority, but that's beside the point. Anyways, when I'm leading a project or teaching people something I expect things to be done my way. I set the deadlines and I want the best outcomes. If I see that you're being lazy or not putting in enough effort, I will get pretty angry with you and demand you to be a better worker.

    I suppose mood has an effect on how much I will handle my patience and bitch about a situation because it is human nature get swayed by moods.

  7. #357
    Junior Member Array refinnej30's Avatar
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    Thanks T-Guy. It's helpful to hear it from another ESTJ male. My hubby and I are opposites in many ways. I tend to plan, make several appointments to complete a project, make a deadline, allow for creative changes and keep at it in small increments until it's done or no longer worth my effort. He will decide what he is going to do and work until it's done and not stop until he is totally finished the way he wants it. That has been a major issue with us. I guess understanding that he is wired that way helps me not to take it personal and adjust accordingly.

    Thanks EJCC. I will try scheduling things far enough in advance for him. He likes consistancy (I would call it a rut) and I tend to be inconsistant depending on my moods. I think he would be happy if we had a set schedule he could count on every week and I could incorporate wiggle room to keep me happy. This post has really helped me a lot. My hubby makes so much more sense to me.

    THANKS!

  8. #358
    came back haunted Array EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Thank you! That clears up a lot of things for me. I really wondered if everything had just been a sham with my ESTJ because he doesn't seem like an easily swayed person, and yet I saw him change when he was around me from what he had been like, and again when he concluded we wouldn't be together forever and he started hanging around with people who had different values. Several others commented on the morphing and yet it seemed like four years is a long time to try to keep up appearances. Is this something you guys are aware of? Does it bother you, or are you okay with it? Do you see it as an adaptive skill, or more as an involuntary change? I realize now that this is part of why I legitimately was bothered by the friends he sometimes chose, because they did affect how he viewed the world and also how he acted and what he said, over time.
    I guess it feels to me like, well, like something I have to do, sometimes. Being around different groups warrants different behavior. I'm not going to go into a rant about metal bands like Tool and Mastodon when I'm with my fellow church choir members (whose average age is about 65), and I'm not going to talk about knitting with my classmates (unless they're really crafty and artsy, but I digress). So I guess it's an adaptive skill. With regard to how your ESTJ acted, he was treating you differently because the situation had changed. I agree with T-guy, that maybe other types do this too. Is it more obvious with ESTJs? Do other types not do that so dramatically?
    I'm usually okay with it, unless, when I return to an older group, I realize that I don't like the way that my behavior has changed. (This has happened to me more than once.) Then, of course, I change back, and try not to let those factors influence me any more.

    @T-guy: I kind of rambled there... I didn't mean when you're briefly around people - I meant when you're around a group for a long time (weeks or months), when I/other ESTJs may end up adapting by necessity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nørrsken impersonating EJCC
    It's strange. I keep banning morons, but they keep signing up? What is this?
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    want to ask me something? go for it!

  9. #359
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-Guy View Post
    You know what, I can agree in the sense that I do change my behaviour just a little bit depending on the group of people I'm with. I'm not sure if that's only for SJs though...more input from others maybe?
    I could see how someone who uses or is used to using Fe would do this. It is strange that ESTJ does this. I've seen it happen and it is kind of baffling to me.

    For how direct ESTJ's are - I think they are some of the most complex personalities out there because while they make decisions very easily and they are very upfront about their viewpoints their inner world is so...enigmatic. I have no clue how you guys make decisions on a personal level. Because this is where an ESTJ can do the above and contradict a lot of what they previously said or what is known about them. (like fidelia's situation).
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  10. #360
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    Quote Originally Posted by refinnej30 View Post
    Thanks T-Guy. It's helpful to hear it from another ESTJ male. My hubby and I are opposites in many ways. I tend to plan, make several appointments to complete a project, make a deadline, allow for creative changes and keep at it in small increments until it's done or no longer worth my effort. He will decide what he is going to do and work until it's done and not stop until he is totally finished the way he wants it. That has been a major issue with us. I guess understanding that he is wired that way helps me not to take it personal and adjust accordingly.

    Thanks EJCC. I will try scheduling things far enough in advance for him. He likes consistancy (I would call it a rut) and I tend to be inconsistant depending on my moods. I think he would be happy if we had a set schedule he could count on every week and I could incorporate wiggle room to keep me happy. This post has really helped me a lot. My hubby makes so much more sense to me.

    THANKS!
    No problem I'm glad both of our posts helped. I'll be honest - when I wrote my response and T-guy wrote a totally different one, I was like "Oh god! Mixed messages! :eek: Crap! "

    Quote Originally Posted by MDP2525 View Post
    I could see how someone who uses or is used to using Fe would do this. It is strange that ESTJ does this. I've seen it happen and it is kind of baffling to me.
    What other types do that? I feel like, of all the types, NTs are the least likely to do that - you guys are so independent of peer pressure, especially compared to SJs - but it's one of those things that, you know, you feel like everyone does, until someone tells you that it's weird.

    For how direct ESTJ's are - I think they are some of the most complex personalities out there because while they make decisions very easily and they are very upfront about their viewpoints their inner world is so...enigmatic. I have no clue how you guys make decisions on a personal level. Because this is where an ESTJ can do the above and contradict a lot of what they previously said or what is known about them. (like fidelia's situation).
    I wish I could say more about how we make decisions, but it's one of those things that's so... I dunno. I'm not sure if I spend enough time in my own head to analyze it, you know? I deal with events when they happen, and I don't think about my decision-making process analytically. Even though I've done (comparatively speaking) a lot of introspection because of my MBTI obsession, that seems a bit too deep for me (I dunno if I'm capable of it...). Maybe I'll get back to you on that one?
    Quote Originally Posted by Nørrsken impersonating EJCC
    It's strange. I keep banning morons, but they keep signing up? What is this?
    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    lawful good (D&D) / ravenclaw + wampus (HP) / boros legion (M:TG)
    conscientious > sensitive > serious (oldham)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

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