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Thread: Ask an ESTJ!

  1. #2281
    lords of summer EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chubber View Post
    So the biggest problem is trust?
    Yeah, I guess. Lack of faith in people's ability to not screw up.
    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"

    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    lawful good (D&D) / ravenclaw + wampus (HP) / boros legion (M:TG)
    conscientious > sensitive > serious (oldham)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

  2. #2282
    failed poetry slam career chubber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Yeah, I guess. Lack of faith in people's ability to not screw up.
    So would you buy the possibility that there is consistency based on the inconsistent behaviour?

  3. #2283
    lords of summer EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chubber View Post
    So would you buy the possibility that there is consistency based on the inconsistent behaviour?
    Only after they prove that they can get the job done. Once that's established, "inconsistent" methodology doesn't matter so much.
    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"

    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    lawful good (D&D) / ravenclaw + wampus (HP) / boros legion (M:TG)
    conscientious > sensitive > serious (oldham)
    want to ask me something? go for it!
    Likes chubber liked this post

  4. #2284
    failed poetry slam career chubber's Avatar
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    So how do ESTJs want to be treated when they realise they made a mistake and everyone else also knows it?

  5. #2285
    lords of summer EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chubber View Post
    So how do ESTJs want to be treated when they realise they made a mistake and everyone else also knows it?
    Like nothing ever happened.
    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"

    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    lawful good (D&D) / ravenclaw + wampus (HP) / boros legion (M:TG)
    conscientious > sensitive > serious (oldham)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

  6. #2286
    breaking out of my cocoon SearchingforPeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Yeah, I guess. Lack of faith in people's ability to not screw up.
    I was struck as I read the back and forth with chubber with a few thoughts. I hope you don't mind me sharing.

    Since everyone screws up, including ESTJs, isn't that holding people to irrationally perfectionist standards that no one could match?

    Isn't a mote and beam issue?

    I get the entire issue of imperfect people not hitting expected standards. I encounter it constantly and it is a very NFJ thing too.

    But for me, it is then an opportunity to help them learn and grow. I let them know their failure is OK and life is full of imperfections. But that we grow from them.

    This works wonders in public.... people suddenly are happy and smile big and get a lilt in their voices, better able to perform their jobs then when stressed out by mistakes they know already they have done.. People tell me I make their day daily as I lift them when they are bothered and upset by their imperfections just by letting them know it was ok.

    I have talked with my Te Dom friends about this. Once they learned to better manage the issue of dealing with the mistakes of others, they are far happier not having the need to criticize incompetence. They, too, use mistakes as a tool for helping others learn rather than micro manage and criticize, though not in the same ways. A good supervisor is great at never letting the person know they have been managed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Archilochus
    The fox knows many things--the hedgehog one big one.
    And I am not a hedgehog......

    -------------------

    Jesus said "Blessed are the peacemakers" not "blessed are the conflict avoiders.....

    9w8 6w5 4w5 sx/so

  7. #2287
    lords of summer EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SearchingforPeace View Post
    I was struck as I read the back and forth with chubber with a few thoughts. I hope you don't mind me sharing.

    Since everyone screws up, including ESTJs, isn't that holding people to irrationally perfectionist standards that no one could match?

    Isn't a mote and beam issue?


    I get the entire issue of imperfect people not hitting expected standards. I encounter it constantly and it is a very NFJ thing too.

    But for me, it is then an opportunity to help them learn and grow. I let them know their failure is OK and life is full of imperfections. But that we grow from them.

    This works wonders in public.... people suddenly are happy and smile big and get a lilt in their voices, better able to perform their jobs then when stressed out by mistakes they know already they have done.. People tell me I make their day daily as I lift them when they are bothered and upset by their imperfections just by letting them know it was ok.

    I have talked with my Te Dom friends about this. Once they learned to better manage the issue of dealing with the mistakes of others, they are far happier not having the need to criticize incompetence. They, too, use mistakes as a tool for helping others learn rather than micro manage and criticize, though not in the same ways. A good supervisor is great at never letting the person know they have been managed.
    Yes to the bolded.

    A bit confused by this post. Are you trying to convince me and the other forum ESTJs to not be that way, and to teach us to manage in the INFJ way?

    It's worth noting that I don't typically micromanage. I tend to have more faith in people than that. Mostly because I don't think I'm the best at everything. At the same time, I don't think that your last sentence, about what makes a good supervisor, is always true. My management philosophy is to adapt my style based on what works best for my supervisees -- while always making sure that they know that I'm their manager. That I do have authority over them. Otherwise I go from being a mentor to a peer.
    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"

    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    lawful good (D&D) / ravenclaw + wampus (HP) / boros legion (M:TG)
    conscientious > sensitive > serious (oldham)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

  8. #2288
    breaking out of my cocoon SearchingforPeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    People who are currently in relationships with ESTJs, or who have been in relationships with ESTJs in the past: What is that appealed to you about your ESTJ, initially? What drew you them?
    I don't know if my wife is a ESTJ or a ISFP like her mom, but here are the qualities that attracted me back in the day when she definitely was using her Te, whether at a Te Dom ESTJ or a ISFP in the grip of inferior Te:

    1. Energetic
    2. Action oriented, a Doer
    3. Capable
    4. Competent
    5. Problem solving
    6. Intelligent
    7. Sexy
    8. Focused

    Here are the traits I never liked

    1. Micromanagement
    2. Rigidity
    3. Claiming expertise in areas she was clueless and trying to dictate how things were done (woodworking, academic subjects, auto repairs, etc. as well as common sense things "I know how to do brakes. I helped my dad." "Oh, I just watched for a few minutes. I don't know how to really. But you are doing it wrong, I am sure."
    4. Fear of failure and vulnerability
    5. Lack of trust
    Quote Originally Posted by Archilochus
    The fox knows many things--the hedgehog one big one.
    And I am not a hedgehog......

    -------------------

    Jesus said "Blessed are the peacemakers" not "blessed are the conflict avoiders.....

    9w8 6w5 4w5 sx/so
    Likes EJCC liked this post

  9. #2289
    breaking out of my cocoon SearchingforPeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Yes to the bolded.

    A bit confused by this post. Are you trying to convince me and the other forum ESTJs to not be that way, and to teach us to manage in the INFJ way?
    No, I just was pointing out my experience and that of my Te dom friends. We do it different, but they are very effective in their way, which usually is so seamless people don't see it happening.


    It's worth noting that I don't typically micromanage. I tend to have more faith in people than that. Mostly because I don't think I'm the best at everything. At the same time, I don't think that your last sentence, about what makes a good supervisor, is always true. My management philosophy is to adapt my style based on what works best for my supervisees -- while always making sure that they know that I'm their manager. That I do have authority over them. Otherwise I go from being a mentor to a peer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Archilochus
    The fox knows many things--the hedgehog one big one.
    And I am not a hedgehog......

    -------------------

    Jesus said "Blessed are the peacemakers" not "blessed are the conflict avoiders.....

    9w8 6w5 4w5 sx/so

  10. #2290
    failed poetry slam career chubber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Like nothing ever happened.
    Now if the other person made a mistake. And everyone knows it. How do you deal with it?

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