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Thread: Ask an ESTJ!

  1. #2041
    inside the lines EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    i'll bet the people did figure that out, but i have been absent...errrmnn -- i'm new around here!
    Welcome, Nocapszy!



    Quote Originally Posted by Showbread View Post
    I always assume people look like their avatars... Which makes me question the fact that mine is a puppy.
    Quote Originally Posted by JAVO View Post
    Apologies. Mine was taken early in the morning before my shower.
    God, JAVO! Get it together!!

    ... jk, that'd be hypocritical. Clearly I'd had a bit to drink before my picture was taken.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilogen View Post
    Why is it so hard to take you guys seriously? If you're telling a joke, why do I have such a hard time realizing you're only joking?
    Can't tell if contradiction is a typo, or trolling...
    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilogen View Post
    And why aren't men allowed to order chicken sandwiches without putting their masculinity in jeopardy? Who ever made up that rule?
    Speaking honestly: I feel like the "code" of Western masculinity is 99% pointless arbitrary bullshit. EAT WHAT YOU WANT, for God's sake -- why does it matter??

    Doesn't help that so many women claim to want "a sensitive guy", except that what they mean is "a sensitive guy who meets every other arbitrary norm for masculinity". I want to slap my female friends when they start talking like that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nørrsken impersonating EJCC
    It's strange. I keep banning morons, but they keep signing up? What is this?
    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
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    want to ask me something? go for it!

  2. #2042
    inside the lines EJCC's Avatar
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    Found this on a Pinterest page dedicated to ESTJ stuff:



    Also this (in spoiler tags because it's big):

    Quote Originally Posted by Nørrsken impersonating EJCC
    It's strange. I keep banning morons, but they keep signing up? What is this?
    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    lawful good (D&D) / ravenclaw + wampus (HP) / boros legion (M:TG)
    conscientious > sensitive > serious (oldham)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

  3. #2043
    Row row row your boat SD45T-2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Doesn't help that so many women claim to want "a sensitive guy", except that what they mean is "a sensitive guy who meets every other arbitrary norm for masculinity". I want to slap my female friends when they start talking like that.
    "What do you want?" - Morden
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    "I took one those personality tests. It came back negative." - Dan Mintz

  4. #2044

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    Code:
    Why is it so hard to take you guys seriously? If you're telling a joke, why do I have such a hard time realizing you're only joking?
    Code:
    Can't tell if contradiction is a typo, or trolling...
    Not trolling. No offense, but possible ESTJs I've met have little inflection in their voices. They say something like "yeah dude, I was totally smoking crack in there" and I can't tell if they were seriously smoking crack or if their jokes just sound really serious.

    (And drugs is just an example, I don't think ESTJs in general are at all likely to take drugs. Probably least likely of the types actually.)

  5. #2045

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    Code:
    Why is it so hard to take you guys seriously? If you're telling a joke, why do I have such a hard time realizing you're only joking?
    Code:
    Can't tell if contradiction is a typo, or trolling...
    Not trolling. No offense, but possible ESTJs I've met have little inflection in their voices. They say something like "yeah dude, I was totally smoking crack in there" and I can't tell if they were seriously smoking crack or if their jokes just sound really serious.

    (And drugs is just an example, I don't think ESTJs in general are at all likely to take drugs. Probably least likely of the types actually.)

  6. #2046
    Aping the classics Anaximander's Avatar
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    I want to know what the significant differences are between ESTJ and ESFJ.

    I understand that we're talking Fe vs Te, yet I have a very hard time discerning, perhaps because I know very few and they are hard to find on the internet. My father typed as ESFJ, but he only tested once, it was a Keirsey sorter, and he's not the sort of person who is going to be interested in revisiting such a test or taking a huge interest in function theory (I think he saw it as little more than a glorified astrology system--in other words, something to have fun with without taking it too seriously). I'm considering he may in fact be ESTJ.

    The common unifying element with the SJs seems to be their strong Si driven appreciation and respect for the wisdom and traditions of ages past. I'd like to say that, while I certainly see this in both of my SJ parents (mother is most likely ISFJ), I think they are more capable of forward thinking than many people will admit or realize. Perhaps this is something they acquire with age, or perhaps it is a sign of a very healthy SJ, whereas an unhealthy one might more easily fit the stereotype of the conservative, unbending stick-in-the-mud afraid of anything new (see Red Foreman from That 70's Show; Mr. Anderson from Beavis and Butthead).

    Why is it so hard for me to discern between Fe and Te in these types? Honestly, I can see evidence of both in my father. It's merely one more thing which is leading me to question the validity of Myers' ordering of the functions.
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  7. #2047
    inside the lines EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lyedecker View Post
    The common unifying element with the SJs seems to be their strong Si driven appreciation and respect for the wisdom and traditions of ages past. I'd like to say that, while I certainly see this in both of my SJ parents (mother is most likely ISFJ), I think they are more capable of forward thinking than many people will admit or realize. Perhaps this is something they acquire with age, or perhaps it is a sign of a very healthy SJ, whereas an unhealthy one might more easily fit the stereotype of the conservative, unbending stick-in-the-mud afraid of anything new (see Red Foreman from That 70's Show; Mr. Anderson from Beavis and Butthead).
    I generally see the difference between a "healthy" and "unhealthy" SJ as coming less from health/lack thereof, and more from intelligence and/or capacity for critical thinking. Much like any other person with less critical thinking ability, but probably more overbearing and flamboyant, an "unhealthy" SJ will stick to whatever worldview they grew up with and absolutely reject anything that challenges it. On the other hand, a "healthy" SJ will recognize that being "right" is a gradual process. As the saying goes, "to improve is to change, and to be perfect is to change often". You'll likely never meet an SJ who likes change for the sake of change, but a "healthy" SJ will fully support change when it will bring things closer to the ideal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lyedecker View Post
    I understand that we're talking Fe vs Te, yet I have a very hard time discerning, perhaps because I know very few and they are hard to find on the internet. My father typed as ESFJ, but he only tested once, it was a Keirsey sorter, and he's not the sort of person who is going to be interested in revisiting such a test or taking a huge interest in function theory (I think he saw it as little more than a glorified astrology system--in other words, something to have fun with without taking it too seriously). I'm considering he may in fact be ESTJ.

    Why is it so hard for me to discern between Fe and Te in these types? Honestly, I can see evidence of both in my father. It's merely one more thing which is leading me to question the validity of Myers' ordering of the functions.
    One thing I've noticed about STJs -- especially female STJs -- is that they are often very likely to emulate Fe as an Fi value. I, for one, grew up in an Fe household (INFJ and INTP parents), so acting Fe became almost a moral imperative. Best I can come up with in terms of how you'd distinguish the two, would be how they react to being corrected. As I understand it -- and I could easily either be wrong in my opinion, or wrong in how I'm describing it -- Te sees facts as being detached. What's "right" is going to be "right" no matter how it's presented or by whom. A group of Te users solving a problem is going to involve each one presenting the facts as they understand them, a weighing of each fact related to each opposing/contradictory one, and then a general agreement on which one is likely "more true".

    That sort of discussion, as I understand it, is going to really stress out an Fe-user. They'll see it as hostile, and that hostility will frustrate them and make it less likely for them to trust them as a source of accurate facts -- which is where the Fe/Te difference comes in. Fe -- again, as I understand it -- cares much more about presentation, when they decide who to listen to and who to trust.

    Edit: A conservative (in the general sense of the word) ESTJ will probably also be kind of cranky if he or she is corrected rudely -- but they will be quick to adopt your opinion if you win the argument. They'll grumble and likely never say "you're right", but soon enough you'll see them spouting off your opinion as if it was theirs all along.

    Another edit: Would love to hear input from @Showbread about this. Thoughts on ESFJ vs. ESTJ?
    Quote Originally Posted by Nørrsken impersonating EJCC
    It's strange. I keep banning morons, but they keep signing up? What is this?
    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    lawful good (D&D) / ravenclaw + wampus (HP) / boros legion (M:TG)
    conscientious > sensitive > serious (oldham)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

  8. #2048
    Aping the classics Anaximander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I generally see the difference between a "healthy" and "unhealthy" SJ as coming less from health/lack thereof, and more from intelligence and/or capacity for critical thinking. Much like any other person with less critical thinking ability, but probably more overbearing and flamboyant, an "unhealthy" SJ will stick to whatever worldview they grew up with and absolutely reject anything that challenges it. On the other hand, a "healthy" SJ will recognize that being "right" is a gradual process. As the saying goes, "to improve is to change, and to be perfect is to change often". You'll likely never meet an SJ who likes change for the sake of change, but a "healthy" SJ will fully support change when it will bring things closer to the ideal.


    One thing I've noticed about STJs -- especially female STJs -- is that they are often very likely to emulate Fe as an Fi value. I, for one, grew up in an Fe household (INFJ and INTP parents), so acting Fe became almost a moral imperative. Best I can come up with in terms of how you'd distinguish the two, would be how they react to being corrected. As I understand it -- and I could easily either be wrong in my opinion, or wrong in how I'm describing it -- Te sees facts as being detached. What's "right" is going to be "right" no matter how it's presented or by whom. A group of Te users solving a problem is going to involve each one presenting the facts as they understand them, a weighing of each fact related to each opposing/contradictory one, and then a general agreement on which one is likely "more true".

    That sort of discussion, as I understand it, is going to really stress out an Fe-user. They'll see it as hostile, and that hostility will frustrate them and make it less likely for them to trust them as a source of accurate facts -- which is where the Fe/Te difference comes in. Fe -- again, as I understand it -- cares much more about presentation, when they decide who to listen to and who to trust.

    Edit: A conservative (in the general sense of the word) ESTJ will probably also be kind of cranky if he or she is corrected rudely -- but they will be quick to adopt your opinion if you win the argument. They'll grumble and likely never say "you're right", but soon enough you'll see them spouting off your opinion as if it was theirs all along.

    Another edit: Would love to hear input from @Showbread about this. Thoughts on ESFJ vs. ESTJ?
    Interesting. I think he is most likely a Fe dominant, but I think that he has grown up emulating a T dom, because that's how men were expected to act growing up in that generation (born in the 1950's).

    The interesting thing is he will also do what you mentioned about ESTJs...adopting someone's point of view once he sees the validity or truth in the other side, yet never (or very rarely) giving credit. This used to bother me to no end. It's one area where I used to be very sensitive in my interactions with him, because I believe in giving credit where credit is due, but I've come to realize that he doesn't do this to be a jerk. The fact that he is adopting my point of view or agreeing with me is enough for him and he doesn't feel the need to "cite his sources." The fact that he has seen the error in his own point of view and taken someone else's point of view is credit enough.

    One interesting thing about him is that he has almost always supported progressive or democratic political candidates (despite coming from a very Republican-heavy, Christian family). He doesn't tend to talk too much about his early upbringing as there is a lot of negative history between he and his father (ISTJ, I think). My personal theory or hypothesis on why he came to reject practically every value his parents tried to instill in him is that my paternal grandparents were something of hypocrites. They always loved to talk about strong republican/christian family values and whatnot, and yet they were very distant, emotionally unavailable parents who often failed to live up to the values they were so quick to tout. His father beat his wife and kids and cheated on my grandmother on numerous occasions. I think my father saw right through the facade and wanted to get as far away from that as possible. I also think the age of Watergate may have had something to do with this rejection of their values. Seeing how corrupt and literally full of bullshit political leaders could be, then having to listen to my grandfather preach about how Nixon was a good, godly man who was framed by the left wing--I think this drove my father to hold a general distrust for politicians, but especially for conservative politicians.

    That said, there are some weird little traditions that my father has held on to. I do think he is religious, but I think it is a very personal thing for him, something which he refuses to talk about with most people. Now that his father has passed away, I've heard him refer to himself as the family patriarch on more than one occasion, a status symbol which bears little importance to me. He will often become quite upset if his own children do not follow his advice. For me, I am happy to listen to his opinions and advice, but I've never taken his words as some sort of ultimate decree I must follow and I will happily debate him and question his wisdom until I feel that I have formed my own educated opinion. I'm sure my sister and I were quite frustrating children, both of us being NPs who, almost by nature, felt a need to consciously defy and deviate from every constraint (real or imagined) imposed upon us by our parents.
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  10. #2050
    climb on Showbread's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    You'll likely never meet an SJ who likes change for the sake of change, but a "healthy" SJ will fully support change when it will bring things closer to the ideal.
    Yes. I am very much a "don't fix something that isn't broken" kind of person. That said, if it is broken I won't be able to rest until it is fixed. I also tend to measure somethings functionality by the way if affects people.


    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    What's "right" is going to be "right" no matter how it's presented or by whom. A group of Te users solving a problem is going to involve each one presenting the facts as they understand them, a weighing of each fact related to each opposing/contradictory one, and then a general agreement on which one is likely "more true".


    That sort of discussion, as I understand it, is going to really stress out an Fe-user. They'll see it as hostile, and that hostility will frustrate them and make it less likely for them to trust them as a source of accurate facts -- which is where the Fe/Te difference comes in. Fe -- again, as I understand it -- cares much more about presentation, when they decide who to listen to and who to trust.
    I also agree with this. For the most part Fe is definitely more objective than Fi. But, you can definitely change my mind about whether something is right/wrong by presenting it from another perspective. This is why I hate things like politics so much. I see both as sides being right. They are just right for different people.

    I was raised pretty conservative in essentially every way by an ESTJ father and an INFX mother. The biggest hiccup I come to when I discuss things with my dad is that he thinks in order for something to be right, it has to be always applicable. And what I him doing is just refusing to consider other options because he already "knows" that he is right. [/QUOTE]
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