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Thread: Ask an ESTJ!

  1. #1991

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    As a scatter-brained, disorganised, rainbows-and-possiblities-and-what-ifs ENP user, do we drive you insane? I'm pretty sure my friend is ESTJ and I feel like he wants to kill me and rip out my intestines (sometimes) maybe that's just me, though.

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    lords of summer EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trollogo View Post
    Hello again . I was wondering if you could explain how long term planning works for ESTJ’s? It is easy to find information on how NJ’s plan but there is a lot less on how SJ’s plan. Mainly I’m interested in the foresight part of long term planning how do you go about factoring in the variables and contingences?
    I don't know about other ESTJs -- let me know your thoughts, @SD45T-2 -- but I tend to not be very good at foreseeing a wide variety of possible outcomes. I'm great at predicting the most likely two or three possible scenarios, but beyond that, not so much.

    Which naturally leads to some elaboration: It's a lot more about Si, than it is about Ne, in long term planning scenarios. We're more about hard data, than inference and abstraction, so the farther ahead you get, the less comfortable we are with making predictions. Meaning, if you made us do it, we wouldn't likely be very good at it, because we haven't had a lot of practice, because we avoid practicing that particular skill (which I guess would be Ne-based, in our case). So, for long-term planning, we can make very general predictions based on our Si data (e.g. "In 10 years, I'll likely be in a well-paying job with potential for upward mobility, and will likely have either a long-term boyfriend or a husband, because those seem like reasonable and statistically likely outcomes") -- but getting more specific means having even MORE possible outcomes. Not so much fun!

    Dunno if that answers your question. Should I give an example?
    Quote Originally Posted by wheelchairdoug View Post
    I know ESTJs are suppsed to get along well with ISFPs...but questions remain. What are your experiences with this type, and, given that S is the only preference shared, how do they not drive you crazy (shoot me, I'm being an optimist here)?
    I don't have a lot of experience with them. They're part of my general social circle trend, i.e. that I have a good number of ISxJ friends, a LOT of N friends, and almost no SP friends. From the ISFPs I know online, I think they're pretty cool -- very laid back (for the most part; not you, so much, because you're such a 6, but as a general rule I find that to be the case), very creative, and refreshing overall.

    The typical Fi-dom vs. Te-dom conflicts may apply, i.e. from the Te side, the Fi-doms seem like they overreact easily and become unpredictable. It can scare us because 1) we like predictability and are generally scared of chaos, and 2) it reminds us too much of our own inferior Fi, and we project our perception of weak Fi onto their strong Fi. (I'm guessing you guys do the same thing with us.)
    Quote Originally Posted by opeth98 View Post
    As a scatter-brained, disorganised, rainbows-and-possiblities-and-what-ifs ENP user, do we drive you insane? I'm pretty sure my friend is ESTJ and I feel like he wants to kill me and rip out my intestines (sometimes) maybe that's just me, though.
    Firstly, thank you opeth for bringing this thread to 200 pages!! So unreal. I was in high school when I started this project... and here I am, still going. (Only an SJ would keep this shit up. )

    Next, to answer your question (which I am amused to find is the second "do we drive you crazy" question in a row ): Having just gotten back from a week and a half of traveling alone through Europe with an ENFP, I can safely say that yes, you guys can drive me bonkers! But it's not because you're sunshine-and-rainbows idealistic, but is more because of what I was talking about earlier in this post, re: Fi conflicts. She and I got into a couple heated discussions, at times, where we stepped on each other's Fi and just had to sit and fume for a while because we knew further discussion would go nowhere and make us even more upset.

    Also, in the context of my trip (not necessarily in the context of NFP/STJ friendships overall), I felt like I had to keep her on a leash at all times, because she kept wandering off and not telling me where she was going. If we hadn't been friends for so long, I'd have gotten even angrier, but in this case, I trusted her to be safe, so it wasn't a problem.
    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"

    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
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    lawful good (D&D) / ravenclaw + wampus (HP) / boros legion (M:TG)
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    want to ask me something? go for it!

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    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    is there a correlation to the fact that ESTJ can be rearranged to spell JETS and that's the name of the sport team? is it part of the conspiracy started by the ESTJs?
    *yodelling* AAAaaaaAAaaiiiiiiayyyyyyyy


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    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    is there a correlation to the fact that ESTJ can be rearranged to spell JETS and that's the name of the sport team? is it part of the conspiracy started by the ESTJs?
    Classified. Security clearance required to proceed.
    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"

    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    lawful good (D&D) / ravenclaw + wampus (HP) / boros legion (M:TG)
    conscientious > sensitive > serious (oldham)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

  5. #1995
    Row row row your boat SD45T-2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I don't know about other ESTJs -- let me know your thoughts, @SD45T-2 -- but I tend to not be very good at foreseeing a wide variety of possible outcomes. I'm great at predicting the most likely two or three possible scenarios, but beyond that, not so much.
    Pretty much. When I was about 12 I starting saving money to buy a car. I still don't really have enough to buy a car, but it's better than nothing.
    1w2-6w5-3w2 so/sp

    "I took one those personality tests. It came back negative." - Dan Mintz

  6. #1996
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I don't know about other ESTJs -- let me know your thoughts, @SD45T-2 -- but I tend to not be very good at foreseeing a wide variety of possible outcomes. I'm great at predicting the most likely two or three possible scenarios, but beyond that, not so much.

    Which naturally leads to some elaboration: It's a lot more about Si, than it is about Ne, in long term planning scenarios. We're more about hard data, than inference and abstraction, so the farther ahead you get, the less comfortable we are with making predictions. Meaning, if you made us do it, we wouldn't likely be very good at it, because we haven't had a lot of practice, because we avoid practicing that particular skill (which I guess would be Ne-based, in our case). So, for long-term planning, we can make very general predictions based on our Si data (e.g. "In 10 years, I'll likely be in a well-paying job with potential for upward mobility, and will likely have either a long-term boyfriend or a husband, because those seem like reasonable and statistically likely outcomes") -- but getting more specific means having even MORE possible outcomes. Not so much fun!
    For years I have not been able to fathom why an ESTJ would be drawn to any INFJs. Is this part of it, as that's what INFJs specialize in? Or is that way off base? I know I appreciate the fact that ESTJs seem to know what they think about things right away and are very direct (something that I struggle with). They also seem to see basic structure in everything quite effortlessly and remember practical details that I tend to forget. So, I'm wondering if it's just a matter of appreciating the skills that each of us don't possess or if it's something quite different.

  7. #1997
    lords of summer EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SD45T-2 View Post
    Pretty much. When I was about 12 I starting saving money to buy a car. I still don't really have enough to buy a car, but it's better than nothing.
    Exactly -- perfect example.

    That's why we're the tacticians, and the ENTJs are the strategists. I can't strategize worth a damn; When I play Risk, I usually play it like I could die at any moment: taking what I can get, when I can get it, and usually losing in a quick but dramatic and explosive fashion.
    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    For years I have not been able to fathom why an ESTJ would be drawn to any INFJs. Is this part of it, as that's what INFJs specialize in? Or is that way off base? I know I appreciate the fact that ESTJs seem to know what they think about things right away and are very direct (something that I struggle with). They also seem to see basic structure in everything quite effortlessly and remember practical details that I tend to forget. So, I'm wondering if it's just a matter of appreciating the skills that each of us don't possess or if it's something quite different.
    It's funny -- I feel like we've had this exact interchange before? You asking me what ESTJs could possible see in INFJs? Maybe I'm thinking of someone else. (This thread is so goddamn long! )

    I'll see what I can do, though -- speaking from the path I take, as so/sx, when I make an INFJ friend.

    When I've answered this question before, i.e. what ESTJs and INFJs see in each other, I've given a much shorter answer: both types tend to have similar moral codes (and tend to be equally devoted to those codes, and equally willing to fight for them), ESTJs like that INFJs are kind and loyal and nurturing and highly emotionally intelligent, and INFJs like that ESTJs are strong and reliable and aren't overly demanding of them. (INFJs seem very prone to being used by emotionally needy people -- and ESTJs are likely very refreshing by being the exact opposite, even if that opposite tendency can be unhealthy and stress the INFJ out in other ways.) Hopefully, though, a longer explanation will help at least a little bit in envisioning the bigger picture of how that chemistry works.

    I'll use my INFJ college friend and church buddy, who is an INFJ of the sweet, quiet, and bookish variety, as an example. I'll start with literally how it happened, and then my reflections from after the fact.

    I met her through church, and then kept running into her through mutual friends (who I had no idea were mutual), and then decided I'd get to know her better since we ran in the same circle -- and then, as it turned out, getting to know her was easy for me. I remembered having an initial impression of her as being soft-spoken to the point that I'd have to lean in, in order to understand her -- but at the same time, I found her incredibly interesting and funny.

    In general, I think one of the reasons why I'm drawn to introverts (and sp-doms/seconds, who, as it turns out, make up a majority of my friend group), is that our pace of friendship works nearly perfectly -- if that makes sense. I'm a very independent person, and need a decent amount of space -- not for the sake of energy, but for the sake of maintaining a level of personal autonomy and agency over my own life -- so I don't think it would be arrogant to say that I have a natural knack at befriending introverts. I give them the space that I'd give myself, and I let them come to me, instead of forcing myself on them. So, as this is generally the way I befriend people, it's the way that I befriended this particular INFJ. (I think she appreciated that tactic, for reasons I will explain later.)

    Another typical thing I do, with friends -- which is very so/sx of me -- is inferring deeper traits from early surface observations of people. It'd be interesting to know whether this is something other ESTJs do, because it's a process that a lot of people hate to hear about, and a process that has made me feel a bit robotic and alien amongst my peers. Sherlock Holmes says it best in an episode of "Elementary" (one of my new favorite shows): "It just so happens, people and all their deceits and illusions that inform everything that they do tends to be the most fascinating puzzles of all. Of course, they don't always appreciate being seen as such." In my case, though, I'm not exploring them just for the sake of solving a puzzle -- though I'm sure that's part of it, as I am incredibly interested in personality psychology (hence my membership here). I'm exploring them because I've found that it's the best way for me to really get to know people when I don't have an intuitive, feeling-based way of getting to know them. Digression aside, I befriended this INFJ while trying to get a good read on her, and found that under her reserved, quiet exterior was someone who shared with me almost every value I hold dear. We'd hardly need to talk about it -- it could all go unsaid. But I knew through our compatibility in humor and surface-level values that what was underneath meshed just as well.

    We ran into a bit of a plateau part of the way through -- which, as it turns out, was my fault. (I've run into this with other NFJ friends, and I'm sure it's at least partially type-related.) I thought I'd hit a wall with her, i.e. a friendship line that she wasn't willing to cross. I thought she'd put me in a particular friendship zone that she wouldn't let me progress from. (I've seen that with other FJs -- especially SFJs.) I was waiting for her to open up, and she wasn't going anywhere. But I found out later, by inference, that she was waiting for the same thing from me. She wanted to care for me, because that's the role she likes to take in friendships, and I wasn't letting her do that. So, once I opened up to her a bit more, we grew much closer. (Fidelia, you may find this familiar, as you've told me things to the same effect before!)

    My reflections from after the fact, as promised...
    The "compatibility" I alluded to before was multifaceted; You suggested that it was related to skills that the other lacks, and I know that's part of it, but there's something deeper to it, as well, from my experience. I'd put it into three layers:
    Surface layer: Shared interests, compatible sense of humor, "they're just fun to be around"
    Middle layer: Appreciating the skills the other lacks (ESTJ ability to stay Te-focused no matter what, INFJ ability to read people and situations intuitively and with near-perfect accuracy)
    Deeper layer: Shared worldview and shared life priorities
    I think INFJs and ESTJs, when they are compatible, are compatible because of their devotion to their values, to being pillars of the community, to doing The Right Thing, to striving for excellence and making a difference in the world. Hard work, diligence, idealism, courage in the face of adversity. Dedication and devotion to friends and family -- if necessary, to the point of self-sacrifice. These were the values that I saw in my INFJ friend, that I inferred from her everyday behavior.
    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"

    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    lawful good (D&D) / ravenclaw + wampus (HP) / boros legion (M:TG)
    conscientious > sensitive > serious (oldham)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

  8. #1998
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    How can ENFP's become willingly (and thats the key word) more organised?
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

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    lords of summer EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HelenOfTroy View Post
    How can ENFP's become willingly (and thats the key word) more organised?
    Well, I guess it's a matter of being motivated, and what motivates ENFPs can depend on a lot of factors. I know some ENFPs who'd be motivated by seeing it as a challenge, daring themselves to do it and having to follow through with the dare. But those ENFPs all have 8 somewhere in their tritype, so I dunno how it would work for other ENFPs.

    And regardless of type, it always helps to have someone else to hold you accountable, and maybe make suggestions as to how you could be more efficient while also making sure whatever organizational system you decide on is intuitive for you.

    Does that help at all?

    (Also, sorry about the essay earlier, @fidelia -- I hope it helped, at least a little!)
    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"

    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    lawful good (D&D) / ravenclaw + wampus (HP) / boros legion (M:TG)
    conscientious > sensitive > serious (oldham)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

  10. #2000
    Biting Shards Dr Mobius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post

    Dunno if that answers your question. Should I give an example?

    Quote Originally Posted by SD45T-2 View Post
    Pretty much. When I was about 12 I starting saving money to buy a car. I still don't really have enough to buy a car, but it's better than nothing.
    No I think I understand between you and SD45T-2, but Ill put it in an analogy to see. So it’s like you have two doors in front of you, and you have to choose which one having no idea what is behind either, trusting the information you have about said doors that is in front of you and your past experiences with doors? Immediate decisions for immediate action?
    Now, therefore, lead on where you would have us go, and we will follow with right goodwill; you shall not find us fail you in so far as our strength holds out, but no man can do more than in him lies, no matter how willing he may be.


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