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Thread: Ask an ESTJ!

  1. #1971
    Perfect Beat Redbone's Avatar
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    Oh yeah. Someone asked me about that earlier in the thread, and I was familiar enough with it that I had the internal script memorized:

    ... Yep.
    That was the funniest thing I read in a while. Marvelous!

    Oh jeez. My first instinct would have been to say that you should prove it to him logically and with evidence, but if he's presuming to know your own feelings better than you do... hmm.

    Well, here's a possibility. Because of their Fi, ESTJs are used to trying to reduce their feelings into something that's easy to explain rationally, if they know that they'll have to explain their feelings to someone. (For example, if something huge and intense happened, and you know that everyone in your social circle is going to want to know, concisely and without a lot of drama, "how it went", the ESTJ will have to have an answer ready. Plus the ESTJ would want that summary anyway, in order to take their chaotic feelings and be able to reflect on them and move on from them in a concise and logical way.) So, maybe if you were to make like an Fi-user and explain, in detail, the logic of your feelings?

    Nice.

    Wow, sounds like that worked out pretty much perfectly! How'd he get beaten up/How'd he figure out that he was projecting?
    After bandaging his wounds, I explained it to him and he apologized. He said he thought that's how I felt because that's how he would feel. But he listened...even though he said he was partially right...*grumbles*.

    This was valuable anyway because it explains how he is trying to handle his feelings. He wanted me to send him some information on our family (we are distant cousins) and I thought it was a little strange that he should bring this up out of nowhere. He said that he needed to use his energy in positive ways and working on his family history was a good way. It also explains why he was trying to tell me that I needed something to feel good bad, no matter how small.

    He is a remarkable person...I love how you guys break these stereotypes about SJs. Awesome to see.

  2. #1972
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    How did you get into Typology? (I'm curious because it seems kind of rare for SJs to get really into the theory.)

  3. #1973
    lords of summer EJCC's Avatar
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    I've been waiting for someone to revive this thread. Thanks, @Poimandres.

    I got into typology on accident. I used to take quizilla.com quizzes all the time because I thought they were fun, and even though most of them were dumb and/or inaccurate, I liked both the process of taking them and the end result. I ended up taking the MBTI because one of the webcomics I used to read, Dresden Codak, had the characters' MBTI types listed. And I thought: "what the hell is the MBTI?" So I took it and got ESTJ, and it was mind-blowingly accurate.

    It was only after I joined TypeC -- which was, at that time, MBTIc -- that I got more into JCF, Enneagram, etc. It was a slippery slope from one personality typing system to the others!

    On reflection, I can attribute my getting really, really into typology as being because of my desire to dig as deep into the things I'm passionate about*, as I possibly can -- and my budding interest in self-improvement literature.

    *I'm one of those people who completely throws themselves into their new finds. Becoming obsessed with a TV show for months at a time, playing a new song on repeat for days, weeks, or even longer. I'm not sure why I do this, or whether it's type-related, but I give this tendency 100% of the credit for my unusual (for an ESTJ) geekiness.
    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"

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    want to ask me something? go for it!

  4. #1974
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Secondly: I'm not sure why this is, but xSTJs, when confronted with a relationship issue that involves someone they care about being angry with them for something, or someone they care about making a strong, negative comment about them, will sometimes take that to a near apocalyptic level and assume that those negative feelings can never be overcome. I didn't realize this was type-related until I talked to a few people on the forum with ESTJ relationship knowledge
    Do you think this is an e1 thing too or even more so? I think I see a connection to being judged as not perfect enough or something.

    I'm dealing with this ESTJ e1 now who has a tendency to get butthurt with me. If I make a slightly critical comment this person sends me an email apology later explaining how their intent was not bad & they don't want to give the wrong impression, etc, etc. If this person failed to come through on some promise/agreement, and I act disappointed or slightly annoyed about it, then this person seems to walk on eggshells with me for some time afterward.

    It's as if they are projecting "high maintenance" & "easily offended" onto me when I am experiencing them as being the sensitive one, and it's like they expect some anger or punishment for some time afterward (when this is minor stuff I wouldn't hold a grudge about).

    FYI, this is not a romantic relationship, and the the stuff I've been critical about is rudeness towards others or prejudiced attitudes. It's as if I manage to uncover weak points in this person that they find shameful, the ways they fail to live up to some moral ideal (I don't do it on purpose).

    It's interesting to be on the antagonistic end of the ESTJ-INFP dynamic

    Anyhow, I really don't want awkwardness with this person where they feel I am exposing their weaknesses or judging them or hard to please or anything like that. I can definitely tell they struggle to like me (and out of principle only) & my indifference is higher than it should be. But I have to work with them sometimes, sooo....

    Not implying all of this is typical for most ESTJs, but if you've ever dealt with or can imagine someone else sort of exposing things about you that make you feel "not perfect" enough, then what would smooth over resentment with that person, or put you more at ease?
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  5. #1975
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    I have a question. I am currently trying to develop a sociological model to be used in a novel I am writing and need some insight from a Te-dom. I realise that Fi for you serves as an invisible hand which guides and motivates you but to what extent does it colour the Te process? The information I am after in particular is how much does it challenge your current course of action? For example: You ran a business and it was not doing well financially and you decided to put up rates and freeze wage increases but decided to buy yourself a new Ferrari or Porsche despite this company austerity. Would the Fi have you question this decision? Would it ask whether you really wanted the car, needed to squeeze as much extra money out of everyone or whether you (or the business) even wanted or needed the extra cash? My current model suggests that ETJs do not and ultimately make decisions which nobody actually benefits from (including themselves) simply because they do not stop to ask.

    I understand if you cannot answer. If you cannot could you articulate your own personal experiences instead? Thanks.

  6. #1976
    lords of summer EJCC's Avatar
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    Immediate responses as I go (unedited):
    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    It's as if they are projecting "high maintenance" & "easily offended" onto me when I am experiencing them as being the sensitive one, and it's like they expect some anger or punishment for some time afterward (when this is minor stuff I wouldn't hold a grudge about).
    I can think of several possibilities for why this is -- but it depends on whether or not the ESTJ actually feels bad about what they did, or whether they're trying to appease you. If they're trying to appease you, it's probably that they think you're a lot more upset than you actually are; I know that's a common ESTJ-INFP miscommunication, because the "normal" INFP way of expressing those sorts of things is often the "last straw" ESTJ way. Y'all are just a lot more fiery than we are.
    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    FYI, this is not a romantic relationship, and the the stuff I've been critical about is rudeness towards others or prejudiced attitudes. It's as if I manage to uncover weak points in this person that they find shameful, the ways they fail to live up to some moral ideal (I don't do it on purpose).

    It's interesting to be on the antagonistic end of the ESTJ-INFP dynamic

    Anyhow, I really don't want awkwardness with this person where they feel I am exposing their weaknesses or judging them or hard to please or anything like that. I can definitely tell they struggle to like me (and out of principle only) & my indifference is higher than it should be. But I have to work with them sometimes, sooo....
    So what you're telling me is, you've been criticizing the ESTJ's moral code (as it works in practice), NOT as a friend with good intentions who wants to help them, but as someone who doesn't give a shit about them either way? Jesus, no wonder they're upset.

    I don't know whether that's related to type 1 or to ESTJ or both -- probably has more to do with type 1 -- but you are managing to hit all of that poor guy's insecurities at once, with how you're treating him, and I have honestly no idea what your motivations could possibly be in that. Where he's coming from, with being "butthurt" is: His moral behavior is so egregious that someone who barely knows or cares about him feels perfectly willing to point it out to him. Meaning: it's almost a first impression of him. Meaning: it's an initial character judgment. People of my type(s) would MUCH rather that their (moral) flaws be buried deep enough that only friends and family can see it and talk to them about it, in a safe and constructive space. So his feeling "butthurt" and wanting to justify his behavior to you, has been because he feels like you've been attacking his character -- because if it's not constructive, it's destructive. And even as an outside party, I am certain that I would not have been able to judge your motivations in saying that to him, because I have no idea as I'm writing this!

    On the bright side, this is validating, because I thought I was unusually sensitive to interpersonal conflict for being an ESTJ, and it sounds like this guy is at about equal level with me...
    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Not implying all of this is typical for most ESTJs, but if you've ever dealt with or can imagine someone else sort of exposing things about you that make you feel "not perfect" enough, then what would smooth over resentment with that person, or put you more at ease?
    Definitely if that person told me that their judgments were not intended to be a character attack, that they were intended to be helpful, that their view of me as a person was unaffected, and that we're still in the same place -- be it as friends or as coworkers who respect each other or what have you -- where we were before the criticism.

    (Also, if they apologized for hurting my feelings. Though that's not as high a priority.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    I have a question. I am currently trying to develop a sociological model to be used in a novel I am writing and need some insight from a Te-dom. I realise that Fi for you serves as an invisible hand which guides and motivates you but to what extent does it colour the Te process? The information I am after in particular is how much does it challenge your current course of action? For example: You ran a business and it was not doing well financially and you decided to put up rates and freeze wage increases but decided to buy yourself a new Ferrari or Porsche despite this company austerity. Would the Fi have you question this decision? Would it ask whether you really wanted the car, needed to squeeze as much extra money out of everyone or whether you (or the business) even wanted or needed the extra cash? My current model suggests that ETJs do not and ultimately make decisions which nobody actually benefits from (including themselves) simply because they do not stop to ask.

    I understand if you cannot answer. If you cannot could you articulate your own personal experiences instead? Thanks.
    Your example, I think, heavily depends on the moral code of the ESTJ in question. And I believe the bolded is incorrect.

    ESTJs are all about doing the right thing, doing it well, and doing it efficiently. We drive Ti-users crazy sometimes because we often sacrifice better quality so we can get things done fast -- but we always want it to be the RIGHT thing that we're doing. We want things to have a practical purpose, and we want everything we, and others, do, to have a practical purpose. So, your example made no intuitive sense to me. Why would the ESTJ do that? If it doesn't help anyone -- myself included -- then what's the point?

    I was talking to someone on the forum, a while ago, about how one of the key differences between ESTJs and ENTJs is that ENTJs are strategists and ESTJs are tacticians. Both are highly focused on efficient planning, but ENTJs are more interested in making a Grand Plan, while ESTJs want to plan out the steps within the Grand Plan. My point with this example is: ESTJs are too focused on efficiency, planning, and cost-benefit analysis to be naturally prone towards the bolded part of your post.

    Edit: You wanted a personal example... I can't think of a specific one, but if I'm faced with a situation where I need specialized information in order to accomplish my goal, my first thought is "what's the best/quickest way to get this information?" And oftentimes the best/quickest way is to ask an expert. If it's the best and the quickest, that's what I'm going to do. Anything else would be inferior and, most importantly/deplorably, hopelessly affected by pride.
    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"

    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    lawful good (D&D) / ravenclaw + wampus (HP) / boros legion (M:TG)
    conscientious > sensitive > serious (oldham)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

  7. #1977
    lords of summer EJCC's Avatar
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    Post-script to @OrangeAppled:

    My response to you was heavily colored by a recent conflict I had with a friend. We were going to become roommates, and then it fell through, but not before quite a bit of drama; I was maybe 15% to blame, but she blamed me 100% for it and got incredibly angry with me. One thing I should have said earlier is that ESTJs have a hard time understanding how people can get angry at others for their character flaws, without it being a solid judgment that requires that it be proved wrong -- because that's how we operate. But in my case, this was an INTJ, who in the end took none of it personally and held no grudges.

    Regardless, it caused me a whole ton of stress, and it took me a while to approach her the same way, without walking on eggshells. Discussing it on my blog:
    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I'm not demonizing her, and I recognize my inherent bias in my own favor. But I am definitely afraid of her causing me further psychological harm. Like I said before, I can't predict her anymore, and even though I've mostly calmed down about this, part of me is persistently afraid that any cranky mood she's in will lead to a horrible rant, directed at me, full of shameful claims that turn out to be true.
    ^ (The last bit ("that turn out to be true") is most important, because unwarranted criticism doesn't bother us that much. It makes us more annoyed at you than you are at us; "None of what they just said is true! Meh, I'll let it roll off my back; ignorant people are ignorant.")

    So, that's why I posted such a strong reply. There was experience behind it.
    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"

    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    lawful good (D&D) / ravenclaw + wampus (HP) / boros legion (M:TG)
    conscientious > sensitive > serious (oldham)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

  8. #1978
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Immediate responses as I go (unedited):

    I can think of several possibilities for why this is -- but it depends on whether or not the ESTJ actually feels bad about what they did, or whether they're trying to appease you. If they're trying to appease you, it's probably that they think you're a lot more upset than you actually are; I know that's a common ESTJ-INFP miscommunication, because the "normal" INFP way of expressing those sorts of things is often the "last straw" ESTJ way. Y'all are just a lot more fiery than we are.

    So what you're telling me is, you've been criticizing the ESTJ's moral code (as it works in practice), NOT as a friend with good intentions who wants to help them, but as someone who doesn't give a shit about them either way? Jesus, no wonder they're upset.

    I don't know whether that's related to type 1 or to ESTJ or both -- probably has more to do with type 1 -- but you are managing to hit all of that poor guy's insecurities at once, with how you're treating him, and I have honestly no idea what your motivations could possibly be in that.
    No, I'm indifferent to whether he likes me personally. I care about him in a principled way, so that I do not desire to see him fall from his lofty grace. But my motivation was a defense of a person or peoples being unfairly judged. I care about the people his attitudes & comments were hurting, even if abstract, but some were real individuals.

    Where he's coming from, with being "butthurt" is: His moral behavior is so egregious that someone who barely knows or cares about him feels perfectly willing to point it out to him. Meaning: it's almost a first impression of him. Meaning: it's an initial character judgment. People of my type(s) would MUCH rather that their (moral) flaws be buried deep enough that only friends and family can see it and talk to them about it, in a safe and constructive space. So his feeling "butthurt" and wanting to justify his behavior to you, has been because he feels like you've been attacking his character -- because if it's not constructive, it's destructive. And even as an outside party, I am certain that I would not have been able to judge your motivations in saying that to him, because I have no idea as I'm writing this!
    No, I know him pretty well for a good year now. I've met his family & know many very personal details about him, such as his childhood abuse. We interact several times a week on work we share. He has called me a "friend". We socialize in the same circle & have many mutual friends & acquaintances. This is no stranger to me. He's offered unsolicited advice to me as well.

    My criticism was constructive. It was making someone aware that they are appearing prejudiced & gossipy. Another ESTJ was present both times & he took to gently mocking the other ESTJ to demonstrate how ridiculous he was being (I guess that was his method of pointing it out). Everyone present was uncomfortable with the ESTJ's narrow-minded views, which were filled with all this unusual amount of emotion for him. He came off like he had a big chip on his shoulder.

    My comments were brief & mild, such as "I think it's mean to say that about someone's appearance" or "I think it's unfair to assume that when dealing with another culture" or "This conversation is veering into harmful gossip". I didn't scold or humiliate him, but offered another perspective or informed him that he was becoming offensive. If anything, I saved him from digging a deeper hole.

    The last incident was when he forgot to show up to a meeting he asked for. This was after having him confirm the meeting less than 2 hours beforehand. He never called to say he wasn't coming or would be late. I finally had to call him. He apologized but also made lame excuses. I just let him know that I drove 45 minutes & then waited in the heat for 30 minutes & did not appreciate being forgotten. I think I had a right to be annoyed. I don't raise my voice when I express these things either. I was not going to say, "Oh, I understand; no biggie!". It was very rude.

    Definitely if that person told me that their judgments were not intended to be a character attack, that they were intended to be helpful, that their view of me as a person was unaffected, and that we're still in the same place -- be it as friends or as coworkers who respect each other or what have you -- where we were before the criticism.

    (Also, if they apologized for hurting my feelings. Though that's not as high a priority.)
    Good. I told him something similar. I told him I was not accusing him of anything malicious & apologized if it seemed that way. He did not express hurt feelings, but rather concern for seeming like a jerk. He contacts me with apologies, as if he felt he were the one out of line, but I almost never put conflict down as one person to blame.

    Despite this, I think this person harbors resentment still.

    If I am honest, these incidences have affected my view of him, although I don't intend any harm. How much reassurance does such a person need, without me lying?

    EDIT: I am quite sure this person finds me "unpredictable". I admit I have a moody nature. It's not overt, just veering from more upbeat at times to very silent. There are times when I do not laugh because I am not in the mood. I realize this is confusing to people & try to keep aware of it. But this ESTJ does seem very sensitive to that. I kind of feel like he takes stuff personally when it isn't (again, oh the irony here!). I've communicated that I am just shy & quiet, and usually that is enough for people...

    I didn't find your response harsh; you just filled in details with your own experience.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  9. #1979
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    OK, here's one I've pondered on for a bit.

    When we had lunch with our friends a few months ago; I picked up on the fact that you (as I do too) have "a lot going on" in your head.
    I asked you if "in general, you were very busy in the course of your everyday life."
    And your answer, (if I recall correctly) was perfect by the way, and was to simply look at me in the eyes, smile ever so slightly, and reply "Yeah, I am usually very busy."

    What has stayed with me about this exchange between us is the difference in our default outward demeanor; I am a cyclonic ball of focused disarray, yet you have a very serene, intense, yet benevolent aura about you - despite being a living nexus of potential energy.

    My question is, do others, as in those who do not know they have 75%+ common MBTI characteristics as you, pick up on this element of your nature?
    If they do, how is it usually received?
    If not, is it something you reveal to them over time for the sake of minimizing chances of incongruent expectations between friends?

    The reason this has stuck with me for so many months is that to me, that aspect of you was "calming" to me.
    I knew that you had this element about you going on, that I have a similar variant of it too, but that our implementations of these remotely common dispositions were without question unique. So, to me, it was a joy to sit and listen and shut the hell up for a change - LOL!

    Do other friends of yours pick up on this?
    If so, how does it affect them?

    For me it is either "hit", "miss", or a "non-issue" - it just depends on who I'm interacting with.

    In short, I sincerely enjoyed eating fried chicken with you and listening to your take on life.
    Thank you for that; I sincerely appreciate your time and effort as such.

    Hope you're having a great evening!



    -Halla74
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    BIG 5 -> Extroversion 77% ; Accommodation 60% ; Orderliness 62% ; Emotional Stability 64% ; Open Mindedness 74%

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  10. #1980
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Can you sense the difference when you are using ur functions? Like in situations ur in that require a use of a function other than Te, can u feel the difference between you actively using Te, Si, Ne, or Fi? or any of the other functions?

    I was just wondering because I need help with Si. Just enough to function properly in this world lol. So I wanna know what it feels like to use Si from a Te dom standpoint.


    Thank you!
    "Once the game is over, the Pawn and the King go back into the same box"

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