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Thread: Ask an ESTJ!

  1. #1801
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I have a question for The Usual Suspects of this thread -- and I am tempted to put this question up in the Relationships subforum, but I'm more comfortable asking it here (where it will probably be read by fewer people ), and it also might be type-related.

    People haven't really told me, in the past couple of years, how I come across to them -- and I've changed a lot in the past few years, so I really only trust the recent feedback to still be true of me. But the one comment that's been consistent over the past year or two has been this:

    "Everything you say is intense."

    I've asked people what they mean by that, and what they seem to mean is that I never say anything lightly? I mean, obviously I have a sense of humor, and I can have a silly streak. But apparently, so I've heard, everything I say is weighty, and infused with an intense amount of personal meaning.

    I've heard, vaguely, that I come across as "intense", or even "intimidating", and this must be the more specific reason why. But I don't know if it's type-related, or just me. Is it something you guys see in yourselves, or ESTJs you know?

    Related question: I also get the feeling that intensity is a turn-off for some people. I can't relate to that. I may even be drawn to intense people, if only because they seem substantial, for lack of a better word, and people who put on a facade of being less substantial than they really are can irritate me. Why would it be a turn-off? I ask this because even though I like that aspect of myself, it obviously is also something that sets me apart from the majority of people -- and is therefore the main factor that makes me "not normal", and the main thing that keeps people from befriending me. And I want to know whether people are justified in being turned off by that.
    Sorry, I know this is old business. But I have a ESTJ family member back in my life, and this "intensity" quality is the big thing that always strikes me about ESTJs. It's a quality I like very much about them. So I thought it was serendipity when I checked this thread and saw this post not too far back.

    Anyway, I attribute ESTJ intensity to a black-and-white view of the world; or to put it another way, no grays. Te likes to assign things to neat categories, with no messy overlap. So in the ESTJ's mind things are either black or white, good or bad, hate or love, clean or dirty, etc.

    And then with things neatly assigned that way, it's easy to be emphatic or intense about everything. If something is good, then an ESTJ can wax on happily about all its good qualities. If something is bad, the ESTJ can disparage it to the ground. Democrats are wonderful and Republicans suck. Or vice versa.

    It makes for quick decisions and quick actions. No need to ponder. No need to hem and haw and be wishy-washy about things. Once something has been assigned to a category, it's easy to know how to deal with it quickly thereafter. I like that about ESTJs. It's Te at its best.

    The downside is Fi and ethical questions. ESTJs understand that those issues are gray by nature, and ESTJs feel vulnerable there.

    Anyway, that's my guess as to what's happening with ESTJ intensity. I would be curious as to whether and/or where you agree and disagree.

  2. #1802
    lords of summer EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Oh, I asked you about this guy before, but it was a while ago...sorry
    Oh right, you know, I remember that now! Sorry! I really should have remembered. The passage of time really shouldn't have mattered; it was no excuse.

    Here's my response, then:
    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    (The weirdest thing happened; I texted him the other night after his presentation as I wanted a) to say it was good, and b) to ask if he was ok as he'd left early afterwards... His response was "Stress got to me. Sorry." Sorry??? I'm still trying to figure that one out.)
    I think it could be one of two things. One, he had wanted to hide his stress and apologized because you had to see him that way (b/c when ESTJs are in that sort of state, they'd prefer that the world be ignorant of it). Two, he took your comment as a reminder of a self-imposed obligation that he shouldn't have left early, that he should have stuck it out -- and he apologized for acting "weird" by not doing the expected/normal thing. I think #2 is the more likely of the options.
    I kind of want to tell him he's an idiot for not doing more to follow doctor's orders, but I'm not sure if that's appropriate either...
    I think there's actually a lot of potential for that, depending on how prideful he is. Sometimes all an ESTJ needs is a good nag. If you make the argument of "You feel bad, and you'll only feel better if you follow the doctor's orders, and you want to feel better, right? You don't like feeling like this!", then that'll probably work. My INFJ mom has often had to use that line of reasoning on me, and my response is always "...*sigh* Fine, fine, I'll take the damn medicine."
    What can I do to help ESTJ feel better? I don't know if "are you ok" and sympathy embarrasses him...I have a feeling it does. I'm never quite sure when he might open up to me and when he's just going to be Mr Stiff Upper Lip. (This is just a friendship, not a relationship, btw.)

    ...I am worried about him. In response to another text some time ago just saying "how are you, long time no speak" he said "not so good, my health seems to be taking another turn for the worse, clarity is hard to find and the will to exist is somewhat elusive" (or words very close to that effect.)
    If he answered with that much detail, I think he wants to be comforted. If he didn't want that, he would have been more cryptic -- or at least, that's how I would have been. So I'd say you should definitely comfort him! I doubt that he's embarrassed, per se, by sympathy, but it might make him feel a little uncomfortable, and on the spot. But I think a serious friendship talk -- you know, saying you're there for him, you understand where he's coming from, etc -- would be excellent, especially with, as mentioned before, a little bit of tough love and nagging. That is, if you're close enough friends with him for that to be appropriate -- and I'm guessing, since he opened up to you so much in that text, that you really are close friends, so that means he trusts you, and will, at the very least, take your advice into consideration.
    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    Sorry, I know this is old business. But I have a ESTJ family member back in my life, and this "intensity" quality is the big thing that always strikes me about ESTJs. It's a quality I like very much about them. So I thought it was serendipity when I checked this thread and saw this post not too far back.

    Anyway, I attribute ESTJ intensity to a black-and-white view of the world; or to put it another way, no grays. Te likes to assign things to neat categories, with no messy overlap. So in the ESTJ's mind things are either black or white, good or bad, hate or love, clean or dirty, etc.

    And then with things neatly assigned that way, it's easy to be emphatic or intense about everything. If something is good, then an ESTJ can wax on happily about all its good qualities. If something is bad, the ESTJ can disparage it to the ground. Democrats are wonderful and Republicans suck. Or vice versa.

    It makes for quick decisions and quick actions. No need to ponder. No need to hem and haw and be wishy-washy about things. Once something has been assigned to a category, it's easy to know how to deal with it quickly thereafter. I like that about ESTJs. It's Te at its best.

    The downside is Fi and ethical questions. ESTJs understand that those issues are gray by nature, and ESTJs feel vulnerable there.

    Anyway, that's my guess as to what's happening with ESTJ intensity. I would be curious as to whether and/or where you agree and disagree.
    I actually agree with most of this, in the sense that you did a good job explaining the ESTJ mindset -- you know your ESTJ family member very well! -- but I'm unsure about how much of a role it would have in the intensity factor. It would make sense in theory, because NFPs can have similar (or more!) intense moments when they release their Fi value judgments into the world -- which they usually do fairly explosively, from my experience.

    I wonder what role the type of the other person has in this. I've heard similar things on the forum irl and on the forum from two main sources:
    1) Other Fi or Si types (strangely enough! even though I find it a bit hypocritical, since if it's my Fi that's intimidating, then theirs is worse by a hundredfold); and
    2) Free-spirited, non-Fi (and non-Si) Perceivers, i.e. people who are intimidated by ESTJ judgments because they seem to have few similar judgments of their own. I have heard this viewpoint mostly from INTPs.

    Out of curiosity, what's your type?
    Also, since this is coming from your POV (which I trust on this subject), would you say that any of the other 15 types are intimidating for similar reasons? Are ESTJs the pinnacle of that style of intimidation-by-judgment?
    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"

    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    lawful good (D&D) / ravenclaw + wampus (HP) / boros legion (M:TG)
    conscientious > sensitive > serious (oldham)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I actually agree with most of this, in the sense that you did a good job explaining the ESTJ mindset -- you know your ESTJ family member very well! -- but I'm unsure about how much of a role it would have in the intensity factor. It would make sense in theory, because NFPs can have similar (or more!) intense moments when they release their Fi value judgments into the world -- which they usually do fairly explosively, from my experience.
    Great! Thanks for your response.

    Out of curiosity, what's your type?
    INFP

    Also, since this is coming from your POV (which I trust on this subject), would you say that any of the other 15 types are intimidating for similar reasons? Are ESTJs the pinnacle of that style of intimidation-by-judgment?
    All the personality type with Te in the first two positions (ESTJ, ENTJ, ISTJ, INTJ) have that same Te intensity to some extent. But ESTJs are the pinnacle of intensity, in my opinion, because they are the “happy warriors”: They charge through life taking command of things and pushing aside obstacles in their way. Whereas the ENTJs are more sort of periodically blustery, and the other two are introverts.

    I wonder what role the type of the other person has in this. I've heard similar things on the forum irl and on the forum from two main sources:
    1) Other Fi or Si types (strangely enough! even though I find it a bit hypocritical, since if it's my Fi that's intimidating, then theirs is worse by a hundredfold); and
    2) Free-spirited, non-Fi (and non-Si) Perceivers, i.e. people who are intimidated by ESTJ judgments because they seem to have few similar judgments of their own. I have heard this viewpoint mostly from INTPs.
    When I first had to deal with ESTJs (primarily as a young man in the Marines), I was the typical INFP: Mainly interested in picking apart nuances and shades of meaning and playing devil’s advocate. The ESTJ brand of self-confidence and categorization seemed oversimplistic and frustrating; I thought ESTJs were missing out on too many shades of meaning. And the ESTJ penchant for quick decisions and actions was jarring compared to my brand of wishy-washiness.

    But with time I’ve come to realize that ESTJs profit by understanding a truth that eludes many other types: That is, 90% of life can indeed by boiled down to a fairly simple essence and categorized in neat boxes. Most of the time there simply is no need to spend time agonizing over nuances. As a result, 90% of the time ESTJs are going to be ahead of the curve compared to other types.

    With time I’ve become something of a fan of Te. And I realize that there is more to it than merely assigning things to neat black-and-white categories. Te is also good at prioritization and planning; Te includes a natural grasp of boundaries and jurisdiction, chain of command, rank, etc.

    Anyway, to get back to your question: Some other types are going to resent the clarity that ESTJs bring to the table. Some types like agonizing over nuances; some like playing devil’s advocate and challenging any neat categorization of things. So those types will end up pulling their hair out when ESTJs simply don’t have time for their concerns.

    But like I said above, most of the time ESTJs have it right. (And they can bluff well enough the rest of the time to get by.) And because they get it right so often, they can move forward with that extra degree of certainty and self-assurance.

  4. #1804
    lords of summer EJCC's Avatar
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    Thanks for the reply! It gives me a lot to think about.
    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    All the personality type with Te in the first two positions (ESTJ, ENTJ, ISTJ, INTJ) have that same Te intensity to some extent. But ESTJs are the pinnacle of intensity, in my opinion, because they are the “happy warriors”: They charge through life taking command of things and pushing aside obstacles in their way. Whereas the ENTJs are more sort of periodically blustery, and the other two are introverts.
    Yeah, I've noticed that about ENTJs, but only recently (i.e. only since I read some enlightening posts on the subject by @DiscoBiscuit); somehow, their Te is more on/off, and many of them are less "workaholic" in nature -- i.e. more "chill", subjectively. I've noticed the same thing with some of the INTJs I know. Maybe it has to do with the increased likelihood of NTJs to be 9s or have a 9 wing. Or maybe Si just makes you uptight?
    When I first had to deal with ESTJs (primarily as a young man in the Marines), I was the typical INFP: Mainly interested in picking apart nuances and shades of meaning and playing devil’s advocate. The ESTJ brand of self-confidence and categorization seemed oversimplistic and frustrating; I thought ESTJs were missing out on too many shades of meaning. And the ESTJ penchant for quick decisions and actions was jarring compared to my brand of wishy-washiness.

    But with time I’ve come to realize that ESTJs profit by understanding a truth that eludes many other types: That is, 90% of life can indeed by boiled down to a fairly simple essence and categorized in neat boxes. Most of the time there simply is no need to spend time agonizing over nuances. As a result, 90% of the time ESTJs are going to be ahead of the curve compared to other types.
    This is a really nice idea! I had never thought about it that way. I guess it's true, though.

    I've felt similarly, in reverse, about Ni and Ti. Both of them, it seemed to me initially, made everything in the world too big, too complicated, and too unwieldy. Makes it hard to make a decisions. But since then, I've come to be very impressed with those two functions; they each, in different ways, make for increased accuracy on a larger scale than I could ever operate on.
    With time I’ve become something of a fan of Te. And I realize that there is more to it than merely assigning things to neat black-and-white categories. Te is also good at prioritization and planning; Te includes a natural grasp of boundaries and jurisdiction, chain of command, rank, etc.
    Exactly! I'm glad you know this about it; you have lots of insight into Te, and I'm very impressed with that. A lot of non-ESTJs seem to think that we really 100% believe the black-and-white terms we operate under, but that's really not the case -- even the unhealthiest of ESTJs, i.e. the most evangelical and hypocritical and the least in touch with objective fact (or how to be objective at all), are driven by a fear of the chaos of detail and nuance. It leads to, like you said, ambiguity and uncertainty, which really frustrates ESTJs because they like to be certain of things. Healthy ESTJs (like, I presume, myself) can learn to recognize that ambiguity exists, but still end up operating under the assumption that it doesn't, just to make life easier -- since, as you said, 90% of life decisions can be safely made without getting into those ambiguities.
    Anyway, to get back to your question: Some other types are going to resent the clarity that ESTJs bring to the table. Some types like agonizing over nuances; some like playing devil’s advocate and challenging any neat categorization of things. So those types will end up pulling their hair out when ESTJs simply don’t have time for their concerns.
    My INTP dad is one of those people. It drives him crazy!
    But like I said above, most of the time ESTJs have it right. (And they can bluff well enough the rest of the time to get by.) And because they get it right so often, they can move forward with that extra degree of certainty and self-assurance.
    I find this word choice so interesting, because I consider myself terrible at bluffing. I'm bad at improvising on the spot, in general; I might have lied more as a child if it had been easy for me, but because I've always (practically since I could talk) found it much easier to tell the truth, I've never been able to bullshit worth a damn. But in the sense that you've described, yeah, I guess I do have a talent for it. I can make anyone believe that I'm certain about something. If they know nothing about it, I can tell them about it very authoritatively; sometimes they believe me 100% even when I heavily qualify something I tell them (e.g. "I read this a long time ago, and I might not be remembering it correctly"), just because I sound so authoritative. And it serves the additional benefit -- which I have discussed with @SilkRoad before -- of tricking myself into certainty when I was never certain about something, i.e. boosting my confidence, to get myself to act, and, again, ridding myself of meddlesome ambiguity.

    If nothing else, Te makes for a great coping mechanism. At best, I become a machine; my ENFP friend from high school always used to call me "the Energizer bunny" because I could keep going and going and going. But at worst, I accidentally brainwash myself into illogically limited thinking -- and it usually leads to a lot of stress repression that can blow up at inopportune moments later. But for every benefit comes a curse, and I think it's worth it, to be the way I am.
    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"

    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    lawful good (D&D) / ravenclaw + wampus (HP) / boros legion (M:TG)
    conscientious > sensitive > serious (oldham)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Yeah, I've noticed that about ENTJs, but only recently (i.e. only since I read some enlightening posts on the subject by @DiscoBiscuit); somehow, their Te is more on/off, and many of them are less "workaholic" in nature -- i.e. more "chill", subjectively. I've noticed the same thing with some of the INTJs I know. Maybe it has to do with the increased likelihood of NTJs to be 9s or have a 9 wing. Or maybe Si just makes you uptight?
    Yeah, good point. Ni is probably going to keep NTJs focused on more abstract matters. NTJs apply their Te to things like business strategies, conspiracy theories, or developing some new way of farming or manufacturing. Meantime they may not have a clue about how to dress themselves properly or do normal social things. Their friends may not see a whole lot of their Te until they touch on a project or subject of interest to the NTJ’s Te.

    By comparison Si keeps STJs focused on matters more at hand. Their Te is going to be in evidence over lots of daily details: The best way to serve dinner, the best way to throw a party, the best place to order pizza in town, and so on. I have fun working on projects around the house with my ESTJ family member. She brings Te vitality and determination to everything she undertakes.

    For example: She is great at cutting to the chase. I’ll write up a to-do list for myself with a dozen projects to undertake, all equally important. She’ll look it over, instantly pick out one item, and say “This is the one you need to work on first.” And she'll be deadset on it, even if I object. Of course, after I think about it a bit, I realize that she’s right. But it always seems weird that she can hone in on that one item so quickly and unerringly. It's a gift.

    So that Te energy is always right there in every interaction with ESTJs, or so it seems anyway.

  6. #1806
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    Wow, FineLine, I found that distillation rang rather true with my perceptions too! I remember being very surprised when my ESTJ would consult me about ethical issues, because he normally seemed so sure of himself and very decisive. Your explanation would make some sense to me.

    I too find myself myself admiring Te, even though I can sometimes feel steamrolled by it. One area where I really need what Te can give me is in writing. Ni just offers way too many options and I get bogged down trying to find a way to appropriately categorize my thoughts, decide which are most important, not get mired down in detail and get it all done. Because Te is more black and white and simplifies things down, it makes it a lot simpler to take action and get things accomplished.

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    To the regulars of the thread, I just had to share: I’ve finally taken the time and ascertained my ESTJ's enneagram type!

    After reading all the readily available material on the 1, 2, 3, 6, and 8, as well as the Naranjo book, and having him take two tests he was good enough to humor me with to gain some additional perspective and clues, he is...........a counterphobic 6w7. Definitely 6, definitely counterphobic, definitely 7 wing. His stacking seems like it is either so/sp or sp/so… that I’m still trying to nail down. Definitely sx last, though.

    For tritype, I’m thinking 613 seems to fit the best:

    [by timeless:] 6-1-3. That means they have the core desires of a 6, they interact with the world like a 1 and they like to be seen like a 3 would like to be seen. Breaking that down:
    Type 6 is security-oriented, and can alternate between serious doubt and serious loyalty. They tend to be pretty rule-focused right off the bat (as they are a superego type) but then add 1 onto the mix and, like that tri-type description gives you, they can get fixated on constructing appropriate rules. Type 1 is usually critical of themselves and others, which is the component that enables a Type 6 to channel their desire for a workable rule set into the desire to create a workable rule set. Type 3, the image type in this triad, likes to be seen as successful and effective. You can see how adding 6, 1 and 3 together would create a personality type that's dedicated toward seeking out the best rule set.

    613 The Taskmaster. Discerning and focused 6. This is the most industrious 6. Eager beavers and highly responsible, they are always busy and can be mistaken for 3s. Fear is managed by achieving. They tend to feel the burden of obligation. They focus on duty and family.

    The core fears are of fear itself, danger, being alone, cowardice, submitting, deviance, uncertainty, being targeted, chaos, being wrong, bad, evil, angry, inappropriate, corruptible, condemned, failure, being incapable, or unable to do, inefficient, immutable, and inconsequential.
    My question is, if you feel comfortable, what are the enneagram types and instinctual stackings of the ESTJs here? Can anyone dish about being an ESTJ counterphobic 6w7, ESTJ 613, or ESTJ so/sp or sp/so? I'd welcome any information! Thanks.

  8. #1808
    lords of summer EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mia. View Post
    To the regulars of the thread, I just had to share: I’ve finally taken the time and ascertained my ESTJ's enneagram type!
    Yay! Excellent.
    After reading all the readily available material on the 1, 2, 3, 6, and 8, as well as the Naranjo book, and having him take two tests he was good enough to humor me with to gain some additional perspective and clues, he is...........a counterphobic 6w7. Definitely 6, definitely counterphobic, definitely 7 wing. His stacking seems like it is either so/sp or sp/so… that I’m still trying to nail down. Definitely sx last, though.

    For tritype, I’m thinking 613 seems to fit the best:

    My question is, if you feel comfortable, what are the enneagram types and instinctual stackings of the ESTJs here? Can anyone dish about being an ESTJ counterphobic 6w7, ESTJ 613, or ESTJ so/sp or sp/so? I'd welcome any information! Thanks.
    I have a similar tritype, so I relate to a lot of the description, and I think the 6 in my tritype usually errs on the side of counterphobic; I see phobic 6 behaviors in myself as cowardly and see it as only a matter of time until I confront them. Nonetheless, my biggest fears -- the ones that I have bad dreams about -- relate less to safety and more to losing control or losing my integrity, especially in the view of those whose opinions I respect. I guess the description in your quote has cemented my belief in tritype, because I guess the idea is that any permutation of three types will be similar, e.g. 6-3-1, 1-3-6, 1-6-3, etc).

    I'm still not sure if I'm sp/so or so/sp; I relate to equal amounts of both descriptions. My attempts at getting an opinion from online resources (and from the forum) aren't that much help. So I remain unsure.

    I guess I can't be of much help regarding this question, then. Sorry.
    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"

    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    lawful good (D&D) / ravenclaw + wampus (HP) / boros legion (M:TG)
    conscientious > sensitive > serious (oldham)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mia. View Post
    My question is, if you feel comfortable, what are the enneagram types and instinctual stackings of the ESTJs here? Can anyone dish about being an ESTJ counterphobic 6w7, ESTJ 613, or ESTJ so/sp or sp/so? I'd welcome any information! Thanks.
    My info is in my sig. I can't think of anything particularly profound to say about it. If you have questions that are more specific I could try to answer them.

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I'm still not sure if I'm sp/so or so/sp; I relate to equal amounts of both descriptions. My attempts at getting an opinion from online resources (and from the forum) aren't that much help. So I remain unsure.
    Have you taken this? http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...instincts.html

    My results: http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...tincts-27.html I was already pretty sure that I was so/sp.
    1w2-6w5-3w2 so/sp

    "I took one those personality tests. It came back negative." - Dan Mintz

  10. #1810
    lords of summer EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SD45T-2 View Post
    Yeah -- I started taking it, but I had a hard time with it because I had such an easy time figuring out what each question was all about. Especially when they had the words "self-preservation" and "social" in the questions!

    It's hard to distance yourself, and remain objective, when you're taking a test like that.
    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"

    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    lawful good (D&D) / ravenclaw + wampus (HP) / boros legion (M:TG)
    conscientious > sensitive > serious (oldham)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

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