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Thread: Ask an ESTJ!

  1. #1711
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    2) Do you tend to form good friendships with a particular type? My sister seems to be very much drawn to ESFPs, and I also wondered what is it about this type that would appeal so much to ESTJs?
    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I haven't had a lot of good luck with ESFPs -- mostly because I've been so put off by the initial vibe they give off to me when I first meet them. It's a personal problem that I have, that isn't type-specific, as far as I know
    ESFP is my ESTJ's self-proclaimed favorite type. His best friend of 13 years is an ESFP male. He dated an ESFP before me and was head over heels. His favorite of his 60+ cousins is the ESFP. He gravitates to them wherever he finds them. His explanation: they are Extraverted (so not socially awkward and spacey) Sensors (so not “weird” – he "can’t stand N people who are weird”) Feelers (he appreciates the balance this provides) and Perceivers (which allows him to usually run the show.) There’s just a natural affinity there.

  2. #1712
    [bento boxed] EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mia_infp View Post
    His explanation: they are Extraverted (so not socially awkward and spacey)
    I get this to a degree. When introverts are very introverted, sometimes it feels like it isn't worth the effort to try to draw them out; or at least, it feels like it isn't my job to do that, so I shouldn't have to do it. This isn't to say that I give up on them completely; I continue to be friendly with them when I see them, but I don't work on them too hard, I guess.
    Sensors (so not “weird” – he "can’t stand N people who are weird”)
    ...Wow. If you don't mind my saying so, that is VERY stereotypically closed-minded-ESTJ. That's the sort of comment that makes ESTJs so disliked on this forum. This isn't to say that your ESTJ is a bad or annoying person, though, just to be clear -- I'm just referring to the comment and not the man.
    Feelers (he appreciates the balance this provides)
    I wholeheartedly agree with this. I am very drawn to Feelers for the same reason.
    and Perceivers (which allows him to usually run the show.)
    Could you elaborate on this? I'm not sure how Perceiver = Passive. I mean, one of my best friends in the world is an ENFP, and she is actually a much more dominant personality than I am. Although I think what we like about each other is that
    1) Both of us are generally seen as either "intense" or "intimidating" or both, which can turn people off, but we both really like people who act similarly to that (or at least who aren't intimidated by our strong personalities); and
    2) We can trust each other to take the reins in, e.g., logistical situations, because both of us are prone to take those roles without realizing how much of a drain they'll be. (She's a 2w3 and I'm a 1w2... friggin' hospitable 2 wing. )

    @Southern Kross and @Istbkleta, I will reply to you when I have more time!
    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"

    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
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    want to ask me something? go for it!

  3. #1713
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I get this to a degree. When introverts are very introverted, sometimes it feels like it isn't worth the effort to try to draw them out; or at least, it feels like it isn't my job to do that, so I shouldn't have to do it. This isn't to say that I give up on them completely; I continue to be friendly with them when I see them, but I don't work on them too hard, I guess.
    Yep, I get it.

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    ...Wow. If you don't mind my saying so, that is VERY stereotypically closed-minded-ESTJ. That's the sort of comment that makes ESTJs so disliked on this forum. This isn't to say that your ESTJ is a bad or annoying person, though, just to be clear -- I'm just referring to the comment and not the man.
    He’s not bad or annoying at all, no, just has his preferences. He has a hard time relating to and understanding Ns, and he sees them as out of touch with reality, not practical, and the purveyors of chaos and off-the-wall ideas and notions. He says he has more respect for NJs because at least they have the decency to keep their N largely to themselves, can blend in with more normal people, and keep a more orderly environment. (Although he seems to get along fine with NFJs, NTJs don't seem to get along with him. At all.)

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I wholeheartedly agree with this. I am very drawn to Feelers for the same reason.
    Yes. He knows we are the ones who know he’s secretly really soft and snuggly on the inside.

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Could you elaborate on this? I'm not sure how Perceiver = Passive. I mean, one of my best friends in the world is an ENFP, and she is actually a much more dominant personality than I am. Although I think what we like about each other is that
    1) Both of us are generally seen as either "intense" or "intimidating" or both, which can turn people off, but we both really like people who act similarly to that (or at least who aren't intimidated by our strong personalities); and
    2) We can trust each other to take the reins in, e.g., logistical situations, because both of us are prone to take those roles without realizing how much of a drain they'll be. (She's a 2w3 and I'm a 1w2... friggin' hospitable 2 wing. )
    I wouldn’t characterize Ps as passive, but I think they have more flexibility, and thus will often flex to fit the J, especially when the J has very strong notions and the P is an FP, which would be naturally more concerned with pleasing the other. Also, with the exception of STPs, all other Ps are role-informers under Keirsey’s model, which I think has some usefulness. Role-informers often prefer to give feedback rather than directives - feedback is not passivity. I think most Ps make great leaders, and many don’t mind assuming that role, but will often defer to a “natural leader” personality as long as they find the “leader” acceptable/agreeable, only balking or stepping in if it becomes disagreeable to them for some reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    1) Both of us are generally seen as either "intense" or "intimidating" or both, which can turn people off, but we both really like people who act similarly to that (or at least who aren't intimidated by our strong personalities); and
    Yes, he loves this. He and his ESFP cousin for example, outright talk over each other constantly. It will go on and on, with neither one breaking and both of them literally talking at the same time, until someone breaks and relents and lets the other talk without the other talking over them (only to interrupt very soon after, of course.) She is also a very intense personality, so he sees it as a fun game to see if he can out-talk her and make her relent. Both of them are of the variety that a lot of people have trouble handling them in interactions.

  4. #1714
    Member Ukon's Avatar
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    If these kinds of questions are allowed, what is your opinion on this heart-breaking video? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDbuZ...eature=related
    people who expect a change
    who can't throw away their humanity
    who stay idle in growth
    who won't dirty their hands
    those are the most terrifying of monsters

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ukon View Post
    If these kinds of questions are allowed, what is your opinion on this heart-breaking video? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDbuZ...eature=related
    EJCC will likely have a better answer. But mine is that the Maury show is not only a badly done cartoon, but a complete waste of time.

    In the event you're not familiar with American television, that show is meant to be over-the-top and shocking and in many ways is not real. I'm sorry you cried over it - I understand being upset about things that are clearly wrong. However, I wouldn't let that show be the example that leads to those feelings.

  6. #1716
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    Quote Originally Posted by mia_infp View Post
    EJCC will likely have a better answer. But mine is that the Maury show is not only a badly done cartoon, but a complete waste of time.

    In the event you're not familiar with American television, that show is meant to be over-the-top and shocking and in many ways is not real. I'm sorry you cried over it - I understand being upset about things that are clearly wrong. However, I wouldn't let that show be the example that leads to those feelings.
    I apologize for my lack of knowing that. I thought it was like Oprah.

    Hmm, I guess I should ask something good, then... Which MBTI types appeal to you most for a relationship, and why?
    people who expect a change
    who can't throw away their humanity
    who stay idle in growth
    who won't dirty their hands
    those are the most terrifying of monsters

  7. #1717
    [bento boxed] EJCC's Avatar
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    Now that Lent is over and my self-imposed ban has expired... I can finally answer all these questions!

    Quote Originally Posted by SD45T-2 View Post
    But I thought you were a food enthusiast!
    Hey now! To be fair, I think it's a regional thing; if you gave me a container of orange marmalade, I wouldn't know what to do with it. I don't see it in restaurants, I don't know anyone who uses it or cooks with it. But give it to me in something you made and I'll definitely eat it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Istbkleta View Post
    Wow! Let me just say: "Wow! Who would've thought ESTJs are so popular."
    Of course we are! That's why the xNxPs think we control the world.
    Well, here is mine: The ESTJs I know are very reluctant to try new things and I think they feel kind of lost and frustrated with such scenarios. But this is boring to me and boring=death.

    What are the best ways to manipulate an ESTJ into trying new things?
    Hmm. The ESTJs you know may be less adventurous than me, but these are the only reasons why I wouldn't want to do something new:
    1) It's physically or mentally dangerous, or similar to things that I consider physically or mentally dangerous;
    2) It could embarrass me around other people;
    3) I had my heart set on doing something else at whatever time you suggested, or I was mentally prepared for a different activity and unable to change mindsets so quickly; or
    4) It's similar to something I tried already and didn't like.
    So if the ESTJs you know are similar, you can figure out which of those reasons are standing in the way (which would probably be fairly easy since ESTJs are so honest; asking a stubborn INFJ or INTJ would get you nowhere!), and you can convince them that they should do it anyway; e.g. "If you have your heart set on doing something else tomorrow, we can try next Wednesday" or "I've done it before and it isn't dangerous" or "It might be scary at first but you get good at it really quickly and you'll leave thinking it's one of the coolest things you've ever done".
    I would specifically like to clarify: "new" things includes illegal/immoral behavior. I believe this to be a relevant piece of information you need when answering the question.
    It's only relevant information if I have additional information. Even the most morally upright ESTJs can change their tune if you give them a good enough reason to break the law -- and/or if you swear to them that they won't get caught and the pros will outweigh the cons.

    Just how illegal/immoral are you talking?
    Amazing! You sound so Fe (in a very "straight-to-point" / "get-things-done" kind of way).

    Did you learn this from your mom? Also, is "being-Fe" an obligation that needs to be fulfilled?
    Wow, I'm impressed! Yeah, that's exactly where I learned it, and that's exactly why I do it. Obviously it isn't actually Fe; it's enthusiastic Ne with Fi civility and 1w2 dutiful helpfulness, combined to make something similar to, but inferior to, Fe. I wish I were better at it, because sometimes I try desperately to muster up that Fe-style sympathetic response and I just sound awkward instead.

    I should also add that I'm naturally a positive, look-on-the-bright-side person. It's one of my standard coping mechanisms in every aspect of life -- acknowledging the bad things, but focusing on the good things, and generally thinking that the good things balance out the bad. So my attitude gives me an advantage in mimicking Fe, because even if I can't Fe-style comfort people, I can say "hey, look on the bright side" about almost everything, which, even when it doesn't help, is entertaining and good for easing tension
    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Hello Miss EJCC!

    I recently found out my (fantastically awesome!) estj boss was diagnosed with Lupus. Our worksplace is really awesome and supportive to her, but are there things that I could do to be supportive for her as well on an individual level?
    Honestly, being there for her is probably the absolute best thing you could do, i.e. being consistent, showing that you remember (and care about) what's going on in her life, and generally being a good friend. But I doubt that I need to tell you any of that because you're good at those things already, I think.
    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Oops. I feel bad now for provoking you to break it. You've done very well so far though.

    Don't answer me until after Lent.
    Mission accomplished! Now I can answer you
    But what about when you're confused whether you're in the right or wrong? - times when things aren't so clear to you and you begin to doubt yourself.

    Perhaps someone treats you in a certain way and it seems like maybe it fits in a pattern (which may be imagined or real) of how some other people have treated you in the past; and this then makes you wonder if you are, in fact, the cause of the problem.
    Yeah, that definitely does happen, and the thought process is exactly the same. Generally, because I hate unresolved things and I love having answers, I'll think about it and introspect like crazy until I can decide with a fair degree of certainty whether I was in the right, or wrong -- or if neither, what I can do better next time, and what I should do in the meantime. In other words... diagnosis, then treatment regimen.

    Also -- if I can't figure it out myself, then I find a close friend or family member to talk it out with.
    Do you also think that you might sometimes blame yourself unfairly because your standards for your own behaviour are too high? Do you ever form expectations for yourself that relate to things that are actually beyond you control? Or would you have difficulty acknowledging that even if you did?
    Yeah, I definitely recognize that I do that, i.e. the blaming you mention in the first question. I have VERY high standards for myself, and for the most part there's nothing I can do about it, because I have a hard time convincing myself that I can't meet those standards all the time.

    As for the second and third questions... the third question makes me second-guess myself a little, but I'm honestly pretty sure that my answer to the second question is no. Because my standards for things are so incredibly high, and because I'm so prone towards self-blame (and sometimes beating myself up to the point of self-loathing, if I'm in a particularly dark and 4-ish and INFP-ish mood), I seize every opportunity I can to not blame myself for things. Deep down, I think, I have a need to ease the pressure I put on myself; one way that need manifests itself is the way I guard what little free time I have with my life, because otherwise I would overschedule myself to the point of driving myself crazy -- and I think another way it manifests is by going: "Could I have done anything differently? No! So is it my fault? NO! So people are NOT justified in being mad at me and I am officially off the hook!! Whew! Yes!!"

    Interesting. So would you say, even if it sounds like you are venting about a situation (say, about someone that irritates you) you are really just trying to invite others to help figure out what is going on and why?
    Generally, yeah. And if I'm not, I try to make that as clear as I can, i.e. making qualifiers like "It's pretty much solved now, i.e. there isn't much I can do about it, but it was really annoying at the time!" Some of this is just my personality (i.e. that I don't complain much), and some of it comes from having one parent (INFJ) who complains constantly and one parent (INTP) who is guaranteed to try and fix your problem if you don't make it clear to him that you're venting. Watching that dynamic play out with my parents pretty much taught me exactly what to do -- even though I find myself slipping into trying to solve the problems of people who are venting, on a regular basis.
    Quote Originally Posted by mia_infp View Post
    He’s not bad or annoying at all, no, just has his preferences. He has a hard time relating to and understanding Ns, and he sees them as out of touch with reality, not practical, and the purveyors of chaos and off-the-wall ideas and notions. He says he has more respect for NJs because at least they have the decency to keep their N largely to themselves, can blend in with more normal people, and keep a more orderly environment. (Although he seems to get along fine with NFJs, NTJs don't seem to get along with him. At all.)
    This is interesting. I understand the NTJ conflict; depending on the NTJ and the STJ, there's definitely potential for personality clashes there! Was your ESTJ raised around a lot of Sensors and not a lot of Intuitors? His POV makes a lot of sense if he was either raised around Sensors or raised around particularly dreamy/flighty Intuitors that annoyed him personally.
    Yes. He knows we are the ones who know he’s secretly really soft and snuggly on the inside.
    Exactly.
    I wouldn’t characterize Ps as passive, but I think they have more flexibility, and thus will often flex to fit the J, especially when the J has very strong notions and the P is an FP, which would be naturally more concerned with pleasing the other. Also, with the exception of STPs, all other Ps are role-informers under Keirsey’s model, which I think has some usefulness. Role-informers often prefer to give feedback rather than directives - feedback is not passivity. I think most Ps make great leaders, and many don’t mind assuming that role, but will often defer to a “natural leader” personality as long as they find the “leader” acceptable/agreeable, only balking or stepping in if it becomes disagreeable to them for some reason.
    Oh ok -- yeah, you're right. This is definitely true!
    Yes, he loves this. He and his ESFP cousin for example, outright talk over each other constantly. It will go on and on, with neither one breaking and both of them literally talking at the same time, until someone breaks and relents and lets the other talk without the other talking over them (only to interrupt very soon after, of course.) She is also a very intense personality, so he sees it as a fun game to see if he can out-talk her and make her relent. Both of them are of the variety that a lot of people have trouble handling them in interactions.
    This sounds like me and my NT friends, actually! When my INTP dad and I get into heated discussions, it can worry the Feelers in the vicinity.
    Quote Originally Posted by RaptorWizard View Post
    ESTJ at least to me seems like a very powerful personality, the big boss nobody wants to mess with!
    That's probably true. I wouldn't describe myself this way, but I think sometimes I do come across like that; I think ENTJs and ESTJs (and ESTPs?) are probably the types that come across as the most powerful, and I attribute that to the absolute confidence and certainty that all three types exude -- and their intense, passionate reactions to injustice and Things Done Wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ukon View Post
    If these kinds of questions are allowed, what is your opinion on this heart-breaking video? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDbuZ...eature=related
    I honestly couldn't/didn't want to watch more than a minute of this video; literally after thirty seconds I was overwhelmed by a feeling of disgust. Obviously the fact that any relationships operate that way, and that some husbands treat their wives this way, is horrible. But the idea of having so much time dedicated to watching the abuse happen to real people on national television, and that it seems to be more for entertainment than for educational purposes -- I find that exploitative and twisted. And obviously having the husband abuse the wife in the TV studio is inexcusable. It would be a much more valuable (and honorable) use of people's time, if the special focused on groups that deal with the problem, in addition to the problem itself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ukon View Post
    I apologize for my lack of knowing that. I thought it was like Oprah.
    Actually -- Oprah can annoy me for the exact same reason, i.e. that the show can seem exploitative.
    Hmm, I guess I should ask something good, then... Which MBTI types appeal to you most for a relationship, and why?
    Generally I'm attracted to NFs, for whatever reason. I guess they balance me out, our personalities are complementary, we have skills that the others lack -- and also NFs have similar values to me (honor, respect, civility), and we can have really great conversations.
    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"

    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    lawful good (D&D) / ravenclaw + wampus (HP) / boros legion (M:TG)
    conscientious > sensitive > serious (oldham)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

  8. #1718
    Sweet Ocean Cloud SD45T-2's Avatar
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    Is there any particular reason you're into trains? Does someone in your family work for a railroad? Was there a lot of railroad activity in the area where you grew up? If you ever have any railroad related questions be sure to let me know!

    Do you know any other people your age who are into the Marx Brothers? My best friend (ISTJ 5w6 sp/so) is a fan but he's old enough to be my dad, and he was a little surprsied when he found out I was too because he hadn't encountered any people in their teens/twenties who were.

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Hey now! To be fair, I think it's a regional thing; if you gave me a container of orange marmalade, I wouldn't know what to do with it. I don't see it in restaurants, I don't know anyone who uses it or cooks with it. But give it to me in something you made and I'll definitely eat it.
    Sorry, I couldn't resist teasing you about it. You typically use it like jam or fruit curd and put it on bread or scones.

    Dundee is the way to go, IMHO: http://www.dundeemarmalade.com/dundee.html

    The varieties: http://www.dundeemarmalade.com/marmalades.html

    I used to be able to get Dundee at Trader Joe's and some supermarkets. Awhile back Trader Joe's replaced it with their own brand of orange marmalade (which tasted flat to me), and now I can't find it at other stores either. Bloody hell!

    At least there's still Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_no...ndee+marmalade
    1w2-6w5-3w2 so/sp

    "I took one those personality tests. It came back negative." - Dan Mintz

  9. #1719
    Senior Member lauranna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Hey all! I made this thread in response to a few things:

    1. My experience with the rampant misconceptions about ESTJs that so many members have here (based on very limited personal experience, if any),
    2. Loads of random people on TypoC asking me questions about the ESTJs in their lives, because I'm one of the only semi-actively-posting ESTJs here, and
    3. All the people who want me (and the other ESTJs here) to try to make a difference on this site.

    Here's the idea: if anybody has any questions that only an ESTJ can answer (and please, no spamming!), do so here. I'll do my best to help you out. Also, I reqest that other ESTJs help out on this thread here too. This doesn't have to be a one-woman battle! But you obviously shouldn't feel obligated to help out if you don't want to. I can do this on my own if necessary.

    EDIT: Don't be afraid to post here! I won't bite.

    So here I am. Questions, anyone?
    Hi, I have a question.

    Basically I have been typing all my friends/acquaintances/ex lovers and i am literally surrounded by ESTJs. They all try and control me/often they bug me. And it is always them that initiate/maintain the contact. Is there something about ISTPs that you feel the need to save/control/organise?

    Thanks

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    Thank you.

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