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Thread: Ask an ESTJ!

  1. #1671
    Writing... Tamske's Avatar
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    I was thinking a bit more about that boredom thread, but as it didn't have to do with boredom any more, I'll post it here.
    Doing things you love to do as a hobby and being happy with that: if that isn't something for an SJ! It seems to me, that you do your job, and you use your free time to relax and to reload yourself full of energy to be ready for your job again. If creativity is something you like to do, you do that in order to be happy, so you can be kind and good-humoured at work again.
    I feel two things about that.
    First: this is how things ought to be. Free time is designed to relax. Creativity is just a plaything, making you happy now and then. Again, you're right and I'm wrong.
    Second: how can you stand losing so much free time?! Aren't you supposed to be the efficiency champions? You could do soooo much more! Why relax if you can be creative?
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  2. #1672
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    EJCC and other ESTJs,

    How do you guys deal with emotional overtures/emotional spacticity from others?

    I find I have to tone down my emotional intensity around ESTJs-like it isnt translating properly, so they dont understand how to respond. We can NeTe interact all day long however and I work exceptionally well with ESTJs, but it doesnt transfer very well into closer interactions-yet after the fact or when intoxicated, they admit how much they like me. Lots of interesting exploration of ideas, and planning and base value agreement on how things should work, but not really past superficial friendships.

    (Please feel free to be extremely honest-I promise I will not be offended!)

  3. #1673
    lords of summer EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Hey EJCC,

    One of my favourite poets, Louis MacNeice, wrote the following about what he thought poets should be like.

    He was more or less describing himself, and yeah, it does sound a bit chauvinist especially as it implies poets are all men - it was another time, I guess. (his dates were 1907-1963). Do you think he might have been ESTJ? I think it very likely that he was.

    "I would have a poet able-bodied, fond of talking, a reader of the newspapers, capable of pity and laughter, informed in economics, appreciative of women, involved in personal relationships, actively interested in politics, susceptible to physical impressions."

    It might not be enough information, but even from what I know about his life he kind of seems ESTx to me and somehow ESTJ seems more likely than ESTP.
    Based on this info, I could see him as having very prominent Te (i.e. I could see him as any xxTJ)... but I don't think I have enough info to know if he's an ESTJ. Seems a little too rigid to be ESTP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tamske View Post
    I was thinking a bit more about that boredom thread, but as it didn't have to do with boredom any more, I'll post it here.
    Doing things you love to do as a hobby and being happy with that: if that isn't something for an SJ! It seems to me, that you do your job, and you use your free time to relax and to reload yourself full of energy to be ready for your job again. If creativity is something you like to do, you do that in order to be happy, so you can be kind and good-humoured at work again.
    I feel two things about that.
    First: this is how things ought to be. Free time is designed to relax. Creativity is just a plaything, making you happy now and then. Again, you're right and I'm wrong.
    Second: how can you stand losing so much free time?! Aren't you supposed to be the efficiency champions? You could do soooo much more! Why relax if you can be creative?
    Let's see... I would say that I relax un-creatively after a stressful day because Te can be exhausting when used on overdrive (e.g. last-minute deadlines, forcing myself to start and finish something that I absolutely loathe and do not want to do), and after Te-overdrive I really have to turn off my Te and be lazy for a while. I feel like, the only times I'm really Ne-creative, I have to use my Te to turn the Ne ideas into reality, because even if the ideas come on their own without any energy being used, my Te is completely out of gas.

    HOWEVER... At the end of an average day of work, the relative Ne use of an ESTJ probably varies a lot -- e.g. some ESTJs have creative hobbies, or do their hobbies creatively. I channel a lot of my creativity into, say, knitting, or hosting friends at my apartment and cooking and/or mixing drinks for them. If I need a creative outlet, sometimes I like to add themes to things that don't necessarily need them. Using the same party example, I might choose beverages, music, etc, all based on some random Ne idea I had earlier. I might hand-craft some of the decorations just because I feel like it. But either way, I don't do things exactly by the book because that's not very fun or exciting and I want my party to be fun and exciting.

    But I'm not sure if all ESTJs find little outlets, like that.

    p.s. Regarding your first point: I disagree with that. Free time is for whatever makes you happy. There's no right or wrong way to unwind at the end of the day.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    EJCC and other ESTJs,

    How do you guys deal with emotional overtures/emotional spacticity from others?
    What do you mean by this phrasing? How would you define an "emotional overture"? I might have an idea of what you mean but I don't want to answer a question that you didn't ask.
    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"

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  4. #1674
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Based on this info, I could see him as having very prominent Te (i.e. I could see him as any xxTJ)... but I don't think I have enough info to know if he's an ESTJ. Seems a little too rigid to be ESTP.
    Here's his biography: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_MacNeice

    in case you are interested enough... That was a good point about the very prominent Te. I don't know if you are at all into poetry, but look up something by him ("Snow", "Sunlight on the Garden", "Meeting Point" or "Prayer Before Birth") and see if that gives you a clue. It may not. He was quite a diverse poet. I would lean toward either ESTJ or ENTJ for him, I don't see him as a introvert based on his life. I could see him as an Intuitive but he just seems a little more grounded in the real world somehow - a lot of his poems are very strong on sensual detail. "Susceptible for physical impressions."

    I've been thinking about MBTI types of some of my fav authors (especially poets) lately and just thought I'd ask you about this one. No pressure though.
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  5. #1675
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    What do you mean by this phrasing? How would you define an "emotional overture"? I might have an idea of what you mean but I don't want to answer a question that you didn't ask.
    I could see several potential types:

    1. A bit of hyper emo-like saying "Hi!" in a kinda spastic silly way with a big funny grin.

    2. Being a bit too spastic or emotionally invested when talking about a logical plan or issue-thus giving off an angsty or emo vibe
    or tone to my voice.

    3. Sharing of inquiring about value based topics inadvertantly. Like if the ESTJ said "I had I long weekend", I might go "Oh really, that sounds terrible, what happened?" not in a planned way, but almost as an automatic reply

    ^^I tend to perhaps do number 1 from time to time. It almost feels like this ESTJs relationship towards her subordinates is a friendly business minded one, thus I may inadvertantly blur that a bit by just being too overtly friendly. I tend to be very, very careful not to do number 2 or number 3, but I would love to hear how you perceive and react to them. (Or any thoughts you might have regarding business interactions in general)

  6. #1676
    lords of summer EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Here's his biography: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_MacNeice

    in case you are interested enough... That was a good point about the very prominent Te. I don't know if you are at all into poetry, but look up something by him ("Snow", "Sunlight on the Garden", "Meeting Point" or "Prayer Before Birth") and see if that gives you a clue. It may not. He was quite a diverse poet. I would lean toward either ESTJ or ENTJ for him, I don't see him as a introvert based on his life. I could see him as an Intuitive but he just seems a little more grounded in the real world somehow - a lot of his poems are very strong on sensual detail. "Susceptible for physical impressions."

    I've been thinking about MBTI types of some of my fav authors (especially poets) lately and just thought I'd ask you about this one. No pressure though.
    I just read a bunch of stuff about him (mostly on poetryfoundation.org), and some of his poems (which I LOVED) -- and I could see ESTJ. Mostly because I don't see any Ni in what I read about him. My initial thought of "Why would an ESTJ want to be a poet?" went away when I saw, in the article I read about him, that he used poetry almost like a journalist would use an op-ed piece. He saw things that he thought needed to be said, perhaps things that were wrong, and pointed them out to everyone. Also, seeing poetry as a craft, that you could perfect -- something with outside standards -- seems more Si/Te.

    So yeah, I think you have my type endorsement! I could have also seen ISTJ (because I didn't see anything that made him look more like an extrovert), but I trust your judgment.

    Oh, and @Orobas, before I begin I'll just say that your usage of the phrase "friendly (and) business minded" is accurate in more ways than just with subordinates at work. My default mode, with people I don't know, is friendly and civil -- maybe not business-minded unless there's actual business to attend to, but still. I bring this up because it's good background for my responses to your hypothetical scenarios, below:
    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    1. A bit of hyper emo-like saying "Hi!" in a kinda spastic silly way with a big funny grin.
    If I didn't know you well: I would probably smile (maybe laugh) and say hi back. Wouldn't be freaked out or anything, but might be a little bit surprised, and would definitely put it into my Si bank as a character reference for you (i.e. that you have a tendency to be goofy/hyper -- which isn't necessarily a bad thing).

    If I did know you well: I would grin and cheesily wave and say hi back
    2. Being a bit too spastic or emotionally invested when talking about a logical plan or issue-thus giving off an angsty or emo vibe or tone to my voice.
    If I didn't know you well: I might be put off/irritated by that, but I would react by going full Te on you -- not in the form of a Te bitchslap but removing all pretensions and cushioning of blunt statements. The purpose of this would be to turn the environment into an all-facts atmosphere -- thereby (hopefully) diffusing any possibly explosive situation. When people get (seemingly) disproportionately emotional about things, I start to feel like the person is a bit of a loose cannon, i.e. that I can't really predict when they'll get emotional. Hence the reaction of "I'd better calm this person down because who knows what they'll do next?"

    If I did know you well: I would still go completely Te on you, but I would be more gentle and understanding once you had calmed down.
    3. Sharing of inquiring about value based topics inadvertantly. Like if the ESTJ said "I had I long weekend", I might go "Oh really, that sounds terrible, what happened?" not in a planned way, but almost as an automatic reply
    This is an interesting one because I think it's different with ESTJs, maybe. Generally I wouldn't (and I don't think other ESTJs would) make any statements like that unless I was ready to give an answer of some kind. So regardless of whether I knew you well or not, I would answer you honestly, and the only difference would be the level of detail.
    (Or any thoughts you might have regarding business interactions in general)
    Earlier, I used the word "know" in lieu of suggesting friendship, because those reactions would apply in a work setting if I worked with you enough to feel like I understood you and got along with you well -- even if we didn't necessarily hang out after work.

    Back to your original post now that I understand what you were referring to:
    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    How do you guys deal with emotional overtures/emotional spacticity from others?

    I find I have to tone down my emotional intensity around ESTJs-like it isnt translating properly, so they dont understand how to respond.
    With people we don't know, emotional intensity can be kind of alarming -- and depending on the situation, it can strike us as being annoying, because keep in mind, Fi outbursts are what we fear/hate more than almost anything in the world.

    Relevant quote from "Was That Really Me?" by Naomi Quenk:
    "From a(n extroverted) Thinking point of view, the eruption of 'illogical,' uncontrolled, and disorderly feelings is like being at the mercy of strange and overwhelming forces that threaten a person's equilibrium, if not his or her whole existence".

    Meaning: if we personally had reacted so emotionally to something, we would see that outburst as the victory of emotion over self-restraint -- something we see personally as anathema, and contrary to everything we value as "mature adults". So from my experience with the xNFPs I know, there's always a point when I've known them for a while, when I started seeing their emotional outbursts as "immature" because I'm holding them to the standard that I hold myself to -- when I should realize that they just react to things differently than I do, and it's not "wrong" for them to do that.
    We can NeTe interact all day long however and I work exceptionally well with ESTJs, but it doesnt transfer very well into closer interactions-yet after the fact or when intoxicated, they admit how much they like me. Lots of interesting exploration of ideas, and planning and base value agreement on how things should work, but not really past superficial friendships.
    ESTJs like to know for certain that their environment is safe, before they open up. And if they don't feel like they understand you, and feel like your emotions are unpredictable and volatile, they'll probably feel like they have to be "the calm one" in the relationship until they get a feel for how you react to certain things. This wasn't necessarily the situation with my longtime ENFP friend -- as she's an exception to the rule due to having well-developed Te and also being a very self-controlled 2w3 -- but I'm currently in this situation with my INFP friend. She's opened up to me before, and I've dipped my toe into the water and very, very slightly opened up back, only to be met with a reaction completely contrary to what I expected, a reaction never explained to me and never discussed again. This sort of situation can convince ESTJs that as of now, they aren't well-suited to being close friends with the person (as they obviously didn't understand or relate to the ESTJ's deeper inner workings), and that they should therefore back off for a while.

    Not that the above situation has happened with you -- but it's a sample of bewildered ESTJ-ness in the face of unpredictable people. So I guess my answer is, in short, that ESTJs just take a while to open up, and given time and a safe space, you can be close friends with them

    Hope that helped!
    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"

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    want to ask me something? go for it!

  7. #1677
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    Hi EJCC,

    It seems that you're the expert on ESTJs. I was wondering, do ESTJs tend to have OCD tendencies? I'm pretty sure my roommate is a hardcore ESTJ. He calls his parents every day, he loves playing sports like pool and darts, etc. His habits are a bit unusual to me but I'm fine with it for the most part. My biggest problem with him is that he seems to be a bit OCD (hand washing, has to take down the dart board before he goes to sleep, has to put paper on top of his laptop before he leaves the room, has to use something like a hat or glove to open certain door handles, etc...). Reading about MBTI, I have thought that he might be OCD because of his personality. OCD is kind of like the ESTJ's need for order. I'm not sure about this. What do you think?

  8. #1678
    lords of summer EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kngsta View Post
    Hi EJCC,

    It seems that you're the expert on ESTJs. I was wondering, do ESTJs tend to have OCD tendencies? I'm pretty sure my roommate is a hardcore ESTJ. He calls his parents every day, he loves playing sports like pool and darts, etc. His habits are a bit unusual to me but I'm fine with it for the most part. My biggest problem with him is that he seems to be a bit OCD (hand washing, has to take down the dart board before he goes to sleep, has to put paper on top of his laptop before he leaves the room, has to use something like a hat or glove to open certain door handles, etc...). Reading about MBTI, I have thought that he might be OCD because of his personality. OCD is kind of like the ESTJ's need for order. I'm not sure about this. What do you think?
    Hi Kngsta! Welcome to the forum

    ESTJs do tend to have OCD tendencies -- although what you're describing sounds like actual OCD to me, especially the bolded. ESTJ tendencies towards obsessiveness have more to do with being orderly and cautious, with the orderliness coming from a knowledge of what the "right" way to do something is, and the cautiousness coming from a knowledge of what can go wrong when things aren't done the "right" way. But things like the bolded aren't really based on anything rational, which is one of the many things that separates them from normal ESTJ behavior. (I also would not say that MBTI is linked to mental disorders like OCD; sometimes very disorganized and chill personality types can have OCD.)
    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"

    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    lawful good (D&D) / ravenclaw + wampus (HP) / boros legion (M:TG)
    conscientious > sensitive > serious (oldham)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

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    Hi. What do you do for an ENTJ who is depressed? I am trying all the things I know how to do, but I think I am basing my actions on what would work for me. I am an INFP, so it isn't working.

    A little background, the ENTJ is male, my husband, 32 yo and is depressed due to a job loss. He was great at his job, is a very hard worker, ethical, honest. It's the economy, not his fault. A fact he acknowledges, but it doesn't seem to matter to him. We are alright from a money perspective but that also doesn't seem to matter to him. Any insight would be greatly appreciated. Thank you

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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Hi Kngsta! Welcome to the forum

    ESTJs do tend to have OCD tendencies -- although what you're describing sounds like actual OCD to me, especially the bolded. ESTJ tendencies towards obsessiveness have more to do with being orderly and cautious, with the orderliness coming from a knowledge of what the "right" way to do something is, and the cautiousness coming from a knowledge of what can go wrong when things aren't done the "right" way. But things like the bolded aren't really based on anything rational, which is one of the many things that separates them from normal ESTJ behavior. (I also would not say that MBTI is linked to mental disorders like OCD; sometimes very disorganized and chill personality types can have OCD.)
    Very true. I'm an ISTP who behaves in much of the same nitpicky way that was described. My ENFP sis has called it OCD :P
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