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Thread: Ask an ESTJ!

  1. #1631
    inside the lines EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Thank you so much for thinking all this through and writing it out! I really appreciate that and also you not getting annoyed.
    Totally fine! I just realized today, actually, that the reason why I'm so good about people not being what they seem, and not trusting what people say, is partially from being friends with so many INFJs. Growing up with a mom who was convinced that everything that went wrong in her career was because her entire university department was out to get her because she has a higher level of education than them (and having friends who hear "class, do your review for tomorrow" as "you, INFJ, are the worst student I have ever had and if you don't memorize absolutely everything by tomorrow you will fail this class"), has trained me to just take a deep breath and take everything they say with a grain of salt. In a way, it's everything you were worried about seeing from xNFPs, that you weren't actually seeing.

    In short: I'm not mad because I understand how you feel.
    Well, I have heard people say things like that...but from different types. Two of the notable examples I can think of are the xNFP I've mentioned, and an ESFJ I used to live with. So...basically I think it's isn't VERY type-related. Maybe a bit. But mainly it's self-awareness related and that can be totally separate from type. It is something that drives me nuts though. I mean, when it's extreme. When one day they say something like "I MUST BE IN A RELATIONSHIP!!! MY LIFE WILL ALWAYS BE LONELY, INCOMPLETE AND BROKEN IF I AM NOT!!!" And not just once...this seemed to be how they felt for quite a long time at least. Plus, so much of their life and actions were directed toward finding someone and getting into that relationship, even to the point of seeming kind of "desperate". Then some time later (probably when they're in a relationship and it's not working out quite how they expected!) they'll be like "You know, I was never the type of girl who NEEDED to be in a relationship. I've always been so independent, I loved my single life and was perfectly fine on my own." Sigh. Sure, we all can make over-emotional statements in the moment which are a bit...too much or not reflective of our overall approach to life. But this just seems like, wow, you've got a really bad memory, or you really like rewriting the past.
    That's why I second-guessed the bolded statement, earlier. Nothing you just said implies that they were remembering things any differently. There was never a statement in there that said "I would never say anything like that because I have always felt like I didn't need to be in a relationship" -- they said "I guess I didn't need a relationship after all, I guess I was strong enough to be without one all this time". I actually relate to that thought process, even if I don't tell everyone about it. The first statement you quoted, yes, was based on the feelings of the moment, but the second statement was directly in reference to the previous one, rationally looking back on that emotional phase and retroactively invalidating it. ESTJs do the same thing. Every time you've heard an ESTJ invalidate previous feelings of theirs -- "Oh, that time in my life wasn't so bad, it was more funny than anything else" or "I don't know why I thought that was such a big deal; I didn't realize that my life was easy compared to other people's and that I shouldn't have been complaining" -- is pretty much just the same.
    The ESFJ was actually extremely prone to that. She'd tell you about stuff that you'd supposedly said to her (usually MEAN, CRUEL stuff) and you knew perfectly well you never had. And you also knew that when she said "oh, Peter? I was never really into him, just saw him like a friend", she'd actually been chasing him like insanity all over the place so that you were almost embarrassed for her.
    Makes more sense from an ESFJ, I think. I would associate that behavior more with Fe than Fi.
    Upshot: this is probably more about self-awarenes than type.
    Yeah, I think self-awareness and family background both have something to do with it. But I also stick with what I've been saying.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nørrsken impersonating EJCC
    It's strange. I keep banning morons, but they keep signing up? What is this?
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  2. #1632
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Totally fine! I just realized today, actually, that the reason why I'm so good about people not being what they seem, and not trusting what people say, is partially from being friends with so many INFJs. Growing up with a mom who was convinced that everything that went wrong in her career was because her entire university department was out to get her because she has a higher level of education than them (and having friends who hear "class, do your review for tomorrow" as "you, INFJ, are the worst student I have ever had and if you don't memorize absolutely everything by tomorrow you will fail this class"), has trained me to just take a deep breath and take everything they say with a grain of salt. In a way, it's everything you were worried about seeing from xNFPs, that you weren't actually seeing.
    Yeah, we are a bit paranoid...or more than a bit...believe me, I know what the inside of my head is like and I would NEVER EVER deny that about an INFJ, at least one like me
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  3. #1633
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Since there doesn't seem to be any genuine ESFJs on the forum at this time, perhaps you can answer my question. My ESFJ sister has a knack for making me feel like I don't do enough (actually, my ESTJ mom did, too) or don't do it "right". Is this just me and my perception of what they're saying/doing? Or do INFJs seem a bit lazy to ESxJs? My sister likes to list every little task that she's done during the day. When she asks me what I've done in return, it just feels so...not really bragging, but maybe competitive?...to list every little thing I've done in return, so I usually hit the major things and leave out the daily stuff that never really changes. Then I fell like she gets the impression that I do nothing all day. But then I think that maybe it's not about me at all, but more about the fact that she's overloaded and stressed and this is how she conveys this to others. Any insights you can give me?
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  4. #1634

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    A knited bunny for the ESTJs and Halla.

    PS-I learn so much from this blog! Thank you!

  5. #1635
    inside the lines EJCC's Avatar
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    Aw thanks @Orobas!
    (p.s. Is that a bunny slipper??? )

    Another p.s: I forgot this post --
    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    I envy and admire you. I don't have the patience to knit or do similar crafts. My poor mom tried. She also tried to get me to help her refinish furniture, paint the house, etc. I did what I could but...well. I did better helping with yard work (even though I hate it), cleaning the garage, helping around the house--things that didn't take more than a few hours.
    My theory is that crafting skips a generation. If your parents do it and make you do it, then all the fun is taken out of it. My grandmother was an obsessive crafter, but my mom weaseled her way out of learning to knit or crochet (though she still cross-stitched and quilted), and I ended up teaching myself how to knit.

    I know so many people who say that they don't have the patience to knit. But -- and maybe this is because I'm a very focused and intense person -- I don't see it as a task that relates to patience. I mean, maybe. But the best way to love knitting, I think, is to use it with either your Se or your Ne or both. Some knitters love to knit for the meditative experience, for the feeling of the yarn in their hands (Se). I knit for the thrill of the puzzle pieces coming together, as the fabric I'm making starts to look more and more like what it's supposed to look like (Ne).
    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Yeah, we are a bit paranoid...or more than a bit...believe me, I know what the inside of my head is like and I would NEVER EVER deny that about an INFJ, at least one like me
    Ok, phew! I actually took a little bit of a leap of faith with that post and took the risk that you might be offended by it. I'm glad you're not, because I didn't mean it that way.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    Since there doesn't seem to be any genuine ESFJs on the forum at this time, perhaps you can answer my question.
    I would direct you to either @Malice (if she's still around) or @Giggly (even though Giggly's an ISFJ -- because I think ISFJs would be better at answering questions about ESFJs than an ESTJ would be). Nonetheless, I'll see what I can do.
    My ESFJ sister has a knack for making me feel like I don't do enough (actually, my ESTJ mom did, too) or don't do it "right". Is this just me and my perception of what they're saying/doing? Or do INFJs seem a bit lazy to ESxJs? My sister likes to list every little task that she's done during the day. When she asks me what I've done in return, it just feels so...not really bragging, but maybe competitive?...to list every little thing I've done in return, so I usually hit the major things and leave out the daily stuff that never really changes. Then I fell like she gets the impression that I do nothing all day. But then I think that maybe it's not about me at all, but more about the fact that she's overloaded and stressed and this is how she conveys this to others. Any insights you can give me?
    I think, if you seem lazy, then ESxJs think you're lazy. I doubt that it's about type. If we see you work hard, then we think you're a hard worker. So it's possible that if you haven't been telling her everything you do all day, then she thinks you barely do anything. One thing I've noticed with INxJs (i.e. Ni doms) is that they reeeeally overestimate what's "implied", especially when communicating with Sensors. So if, on your sister's daily litany of accomplished tasks, she mentions the boring everyday things, then if you want to give her a proportional response, I'd suggest you do the same.

    I'm not sure if I'm in a position to say whether or not it's competitive, or related to stress, but I think my answer is pretty safe. Thoughts from Giggly et al?
    Quote Originally Posted by Nørrsken impersonating EJCC
    It's strange. I keep banning morons, but they keep signing up? What is this?
    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
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    lawful good (D&D) / ravenclaw + wampus (HP) / boros legion (M:TG)
    conscientious > sensitive > serious (oldham)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

  6. #1636
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I think, if you seem lazy, then ESxJs think you're lazy. I doubt that it's about type. If we see you work hard, then we think you're a hard worker. So it's possible that if you haven't been telling her everything you do all day, then she thinks you barely do anything. One thing I've noticed with INxJs (i.e. Ni doms) is that they reeeeally overestimate what's "implied", especially when communicating with Sensors. So if, on your sister's daily litany of accomplished tasks, she mentions the boring everyday things, then if you want to give her a proportional response, I'd suggest you do the same.

    I'm not sure if I'm in a position to say whether or not it's competitive, or related to stress, but I think my answer is pretty safe. Thoughts from Giggly et al?
    This sounds on point to me.

  7. #1637
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    One thing I've noticed with INxJs (i.e. Ni doms) is that they reeeeally overestimate what's "implied", especially when communicating with Sensors.
    Could you or @Giggly clarify this for me? Are you saying that I may be reading too much into what she says (overestimating what's implied on her side of the conversation)? Or is it that I may be erroneously assuming that she will understand what I've left unsaid (overestimating what's implied on my side of the conversation)? Or perhaps both?
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  8. #1638
    inside the lines EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    This sounds on point to me.
    Yay!

    Thanks for stopping by and fact-checking me. Much appreciated!
    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    Could you or @Giggly clarify this for me? Are you saying that I may be reading too much into what she says (overestimating what's implied on her side of the conversation)? Or is it that I may be erroneously assuming that she will understand what I've left unsaid (overestimating what's implied on my side of the conversation)? Or perhaps both?
    Both, I think. Mostly the second thing -- i.e. because you've assumed that it's implied that she knows that you have done the everyday things, you don't mention them. But the thing is, if she mentions them, she'll expect you to mention them too, and if you don't, she'll assume instead that you didn't do them -- because if she did her boring everyday tasks and told you about them, why wouldn't you do the same?

    That's the Si mindset.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nørrsken impersonating EJCC
    It's strange. I keep banning morons, but they keep signing up? What is this?
    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
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    lawful good (D&D) / ravenclaw + wampus (HP) / boros legion (M:TG)
    conscientious > sensitive > serious (oldham)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

  9. #1639
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    Could you or Giggly clarify this for me? Are you saying that I may be reading too much into what she says (overestimating what's implied on her side of the conversation)? Or is it that I may be erroneously assuming that she will understand what I've left unsaid (overestimating what's implied on my side of the conversation)? Or perhaps both?
    I have the same experience with some (not all ) Ni users. They'll either 1. Think I can read their minds and know what they are thinking/feeling. I can't. or 2. They think for me (i.e. think they can read my mind).

  10. #1640
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Both, I think. Mostly the second thing -- i.e. because you've assumed that it's implied that she knows that you have done the everyday things, you don't mention them. But the thing is, if she mentions them, she'll expect you to mention them too, and if you don't, she'll assume instead that you didn't do them -- because if she did her boring everyday tasks and told you about them, why wouldn't you do the same?

    That's the Si mindset.
    Thanks, EJCC. That helps a lot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    I have the same experience with some (not all ) Ni users. They'll either 1. Think I can read their minds and know what they are thinking/feeling. I can't. or 2. They think for me (i.e. think they can read my mind).
    Thanks, Giggly. I'm working on that mind reading thing. Not always successful, though. Especially when I'm stressed.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

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