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Thread: Ask an ESTJ!

  1. #1591
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I don't relate to status obsession. I wasn't really raised with it. But I can see that it would be cool to have rich friends, if you really wanted them and finally had them. If I had a cool new thing for the first time, I'd probably brag about it too.
    But she has been seeking out rich and noteworthy people lately and occasionally neglecting her less 'important' friends, which is not cool.

    And she didn't used to be like this which is why it particularly annoys me - I thought she was more sensible than that. Perhaps it's menopause?

    I'm confused by this complaint. Is this irritating to you? Also -- how are special and interesting traits not admirable? If I think something is really special and interesting, then I think it's worth bragging about, because I want everyone else to know how cool it is. I put admirable things in the same category. Anything that makes you go "Holy cow, are you serious?!?" as a result.

    I ask because I didn't realize that that sort of enthusiasm turned people off.
    No enthusiasm is not the problem.

    Hmm, it's something that's difficult to explain I suppose. I'm not opposed to being proud of one's kids or excited by what they do (it's rather lovely actually). It's when it becomes a superiority thing; like she's wanting to engage in a pissing contest totally assured she'll win (because that's what it's really about, her).

    Are you sure she was serious? Sometimes when my Ne is active I'll say things like "How cool would it be if...", but I won't actually mean it, and I won't plan on following up on it. I'll just think that the hypothetical scenario is fun.
    No, she wasn't fully intending on following through, but she talks about it as if she totally would. It's just strange how planned out and seriously she takes even a hypothetical situation - and how much she then falls in love with the idea and then begins to think it very practical and devoid of any possible flaws.

    Thanks for your answers BTW

    I relate to all of this. The bolded is an especially interesting insight -- because since I don't know anyone else irl who is like that, and no one I'm friends with relates to it (one of my only fights with my ENFJ friend started when he got angry with me for "overreacting" to him teasing me when I was embarrassed), I do usually feel like a crazy bitch when I react that way. It's part of why I hate that the reaction is instinctive. I don't want to act like a crazy bitch. I don't want to be seen as that, because -- like you said -- I'm not one.
    Yes, ESTJs are so passionate when they're pissed off and people tend to write it off as crazy ranting. They don't seem to have much self-awareness in such a moment and aren't as able to edit the expression of their feelings or tone down their intensity. I feel so bad for my sister because ever since she was a kid, she was teased for this. This is partly related to my national culture, which strongly emphasizes temperance and a laid-back demeanour; so being fervent and passionate is frowned upon, ridiculed even. She blows up about something not being fair, for example, and people laugh at her reaction - then she gets even angrier and they mock her even more. Eventually she becomes quite upset at being so devalued and misunderstood. I really sympathise with her frustration - it's really horrible to have your perspective undermined or to have your emotions dismissed . She has become a lot better at keeping her temper, though (working in hospitality will do that - nothing tests one's patience more ). I must say however, I do admire her butt-kicking ability in general. While people like me dilly-dally or just put up with crap, she's taking action and speaking up for what is right.


    I think the whole thing is made worse when you're a woman too. If a guy does it - he's considered a bit overly aggressive (which lets face it, most societies don't consider to be all that negative). If a woman does it - she's a crazy, psycho bitch.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  2. #1592
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    I thought it was possible that I was missing the mark, but I had to say it anyway. What was your intention?
    to be honest, i don't understand why a non-ESTJ is jumping in answering questions in an "ask ESTJs" thread with lots of assumptions about what I am asking. i find that extremely aggravating at best.

  3. #1593
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post




    Who was mean to you?? Do I have permission to find them and, at the very least, scold them? *wags disapproving finger*
    I shall bring them to you immediately!

    I primarily just enjoy how lovely the ESTJs on this site are... and fun, and charming. This goes for @sui generis as well. (Even if he DID leave Minnisnowta... )

  4. #1594
    [bento boxed] EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    to be honest, i don't understand why a non-ESTJ is jumping in answering questions in an "ask ESTJs" thread with lots of assumptions about what I am asking. i find that extremely aggravating at best.
    To be fair, I think on a general scale, her assumption was a safe one. A significant percentage of people who complain about mean ESTJs on this forum, might not actually be complaining about ESTJs, but people who are especially uptight, domineering, closed-minded and status-oriented.

    Obviously since I know you, I know that you wouldn't make that assumption, and I can see how it would be frustrating if people assumed that you were. However, statistically speaking... that kind of mistyping could happen at any time, even from people you wouldn't expect.
    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    I shall bring them to you immediately!

    I primarily just enjoy how lovely the ESTJs on this site are... and fun, and charming. This goes for @sui generis as well. (Even if he DID leave Minnisnowta... )
    I think it's because we're girls. ...including sui generis.

    How are ESTJs mean to you irl, anyway? I want to plan out the proper scolding, before the ESTJs get shipped over here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Asterion View Post
    [ringo star accent] Dear ESTJs,

    What do you make of Abortion?

    yours truly, Asterion.[/ringo star accent]
    ... Am I missing a reference to something?

    Either way, moral/political opinions are unrelated to type. I personally -- not speaking for other ESTJs -- have issues with the abortion debate, because the idea of when life starts is so philosophical and tricky to define. But I do feel that abortion in the first trimester should always be allowed -- especially to victims of rape/incest -- and that late-term abortions probably shouldn't be allowed. And I agree with Obama's statement: "No one is pro-abortion." (On that note: I believe in fewer abortions and more contraception.)

    p.s. @Southern Kross, I'll reply to your post soon!
    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"

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    want to ask me something? go for it!

  5. #1595
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    to be honest, i don't understand why a non-ESTJ is jumping in answering questions in an "ask ESTJs" thread with lots of assumptions about what I am asking. i find that extremely aggravating at best.
    I did say that it was my 2 cents... I don't know. I guess it's just something that pushes my buttons. I can't quite explain it, especially as my experiences with ESTJs IRL have not been the best. But I've now spent enough time reading about typology to know that people don't usually say "some ESTJs are mean to me." They say "ESTJs are mean to me." Really? All of them?

    My apologies. I think I've decided that using Fe is a waste of time. I might as well just say what I'm thinking. Blame the Brutal Honesty thread.
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  6. #1596
    [bento boxed] EJCC's Avatar
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    As promised -- sorry for the wait --
    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    But she has been seeking out rich and noteworthy people lately and occasionally neglecting her less 'important' friends, which is not cool.

    And she didn't used to be like this which is why it particularly annoys me - I thought she was more sensible than that. Perhaps it's menopause?

    No enthusiasm is not the problem.

    Hmm, it's something that's difficult to explain I suppose. I'm not opposed to being proud of one's kids or excited by what they do (it's rather lovely actually). It's when it becomes a superiority thing; like she's wanting to engage in a pissing contest totally assured she'll win (because that's what it's really about, her).
    This is the sort of situation where I'm not sure how to respond, because obviously there's all this background information on her that you're basing your judgment on, that I don't have. What's your base knowledge here? How did you come to the conclusion that she's only seeking out these people because they're important or high-class -- and how do you know that it's arrogance and not just enthusiasm? I know that I should trust your judgment, but the only thing that's throwing me off is that the examples you mentioned earlier seemed pretty normal and non-annoying, out of context, and I related to them. Sometimes people think I'm bragging when I'm talking about cool things that have happened to me, when all I want to do is share my excitement.

    Assuming your intuition is correct (which it probably is): is there anything that's happened in her life recently that would lend itself to a shift in focus for her, from not caring about status to caring about status?
    No, she wasn't fully intending on following through, but she talks about it as if she totally would. It's just strange how planned out and seriously she takes even a hypothetical situation - and how much she then falls in love with the idea and then begins to think it very practical and devoid of any possible flaws.
    ^ That's weak Ne, is what that is. That's an Ne-Te loop. Although I do relate to the bolded, on a basic level. The part after the bolded, I don't relate to; in fact, it doesn't even make sense, when keeping the bolded in mind.

    I say that because when an ESTJ hears about a possible new thing, this is the process they go through:
    1) Suspicion. What the hell is this? How does it work? Are you SURE that's how it works? Find me some credible sources!
    2) Ne/Fi kicking in. Whoa, that's pretty cool! The ESTJ starts to idealize the new thing, thinking of only the problems it solves, the things it makes more convenient, how fun it is to use, etc.
    3) Si and Te restrain the Ne, and force the new thing into the ESTJ's mental network/ranking system. It may be cool, but is it cooler than any other similar thing you've seen? What are the pros and cons?

    An ESTJ would never find something practical if it isn't, unless they were given credible information that led them to believe that it was practical.

    Thanks for your answers BTW
    No problem!

    Yes, ESTJs are so passionate when they're pissed off and people tend to write it off as crazy ranting. They don't seem to have much self-awareness in such a moment and aren't as able to edit the expression of their feelings or tone down their intensity. I feel so bad for my sister because ever since she was a kid, she was teased for this. This is partly related to my national culture, which strongly emphasizes temperance and a laid-back demeanour; so being fervent and passionate is frowned upon, ridiculed even. She blows up about something not being fair, for example, and people laugh at her reaction - then she gets even angrier and they mock her even more. Eventually she becomes quite upset at being so devalued and misunderstood. I really sympathise with her frustration - it's really horrible to have your perspective undermined or to have your emotions dismissed . She has become a lot better at keeping her temper, though (working in hospitality will do that - nothing tests one's patience more ). I must say however, I do admire her butt-kicking ability in general. While people like me dilly-dally or just put up with crap, she's taking action and speaking up for what is right.


    I think the whole thing is made worse when you're a woman too. If a guy does it - he's considered a bit overly aggressive (which lets face it, most societies don't consider to be all that negative). If a woman does it - she's a crazy, psycho bitch.
    SO TRUE. ALL of this. And omg i can only imagine what it would be like for your sister in that situation. That would be so, so horrible. I've been in similar situations when people undermine me over and over and over; usually I'm not easily enraged, but if I was in your sister's situation, I would probably either burst into tears, or fly into a rage -- "God damn it, shut up! Where is your respect for me?? I would NEVER treat you this way. HOW DARE YOU!" -- and that would just make me seem crazier, probably.

    And the gender thing is something that I've always found frustrating. A consistent wish of mine, ever since grade school, was that girls could be as "badass" as guys without the negative connotation that comes with it.
    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"

    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
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    lawful good (D&D) / ravenclaw + wampus (HP) / boros legion (M:TG)
    conscientious > sensitive > serious (oldham)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

  7. #1597
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    This is the sort of situation where I'm not sure how to respond, because obviously there's all this background information on her that you're basing your judgment on, that I don't have...
    I suppose I'm seeing these examples through the prism of multiple observations that fit the same patterns of behaviour. Most of these observations are little insignificant things that might otherwise be dismissed but together they add up to that picture. It's probably better to forget about this point because I don't think I can really convey that sense to you. And also, I really don't want to give you the impression that I disapprove of someone sharing something exciting that has happened to them with others, like you said - because that isn't my intention at all.

    ^ That's weak Ne, is what that is. That's an Ne-Te loop. Although I do relate to the bolded, on a basic level. The part after the bolded, I don't relate to; in fact, it doesn't even make sense, when keeping the bolded in mind...
    I wonder if her Te and Si don't properly restrain the Ne. It would make it difficult for her to know when she's extrapolating from inaccurate data. Maybe she just has an overactive and underdeveloped Ne, which is clouding the realism of her TeSi.

    SO TRUE. ALL of this. And omg i can only imagine what it would be like for your sister in that situation. That would be so, so horrible. I've been in similar situations when people undermine me over and over and over; usually I'm not easily enraged, but if I was in your sister's situation, I would probably either burst into tears, or fly into a rage -- "God damn it, shut up! Where is your respect for me?? I would NEVER treat you this way. HOW DARE YOU!" -- and that would just make me seem crazier, probably.
    Absolutely. It's particularly terrible to see someone disrespected because they actually care enough to stand up for what is right. And it's even more frustrating, since the more you fight the injustice the greater becomes, because others attack you for the passionate nature of the objection - they not only disrespect you but they also undermine the legitimacy of the point you are making in an underhand manner. The sense of injustice feeds the anger and the anger then feeds the injustice, which feeds into more anger, and so on...

    The more I discuss this, the more I realise she must be a 1w2 like you as well.

    And the gender thing is something that I've always found frustrating. A consistent wish of mine, ever since grade school, was that girls could be as "badass" as guys without the negative connotation that comes with it.
    Well this inspires me to tell you a tale of her ESTJ badass-ery:

    So my sister was at a work function (for her bar/restaruant) a few months ago and one of the kitchen hands was extremely drunk and kept groping her. She repeatedly told him (no doubt, quite assertively) to stop, but he kept doing it. She then complained to one of the managers but he didn't do anything to stop it. Eventually the guy grabbed her in the crotch and she totally lost it. In absolute rage she swung her arm back and slugged the guy in the face. Right at that time the boss walked in and saw her do it, so he threw her out - I imagine with much swearing and seething on her behalf. Later on the boss found out what happened and he apologised and the guy was fired. Apparently when she went to work the next day, the staff were all still a bit stunned but thoroughly impressed with how badass she was. They all were still buzzing about how hard she hit him and how hard the guy went down (she can't even remember this bit because the rage seems to have wiped her memory). No one could believe that the amiable, easy-going, blond they worked with would be capable of that. Apparently the guys were particularly in awe and just raved about her.

    The funny thing is when she told me and my parents she was a bit sheepish about it all. She seemed to be worried about what we would think and say (which was rather sweet really ). Of course, we all applauded her and thought the guy deserved it. And frankly we weren't all that surprised - we knew that she was capable of such things if people pushed her far enough. I was impressed that she restrained herself initially (he groped her about 3-4 times) and took all the correct steps to deal with the situation. Who could blame her for hitting him after all that? I'm opposed to violence in general, but I like that she didn't take it lying down and defended herself.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  8. #1598
    don't fence me in sui generis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Istbkleta View Post
    ESTJ females:

    How do you reconcile in your head the traditional female role (since you are Si traditionalists) with your desire to tell your partner what to do cause it's the right thing (Te)?
    I don't reconcile shit. The traditional female role can fuck straight off. I agree with what EJCC said about my personality not being able to exist within gender roles-- I co-sign her post 100%.
    Murphy Brown: What is it with us? Why can't we take the easy road once in awhile?
    Avery Brown: Because it's boring and dishonest and uncomfortable, like wearing a pair of shoes all day that pinch your feet.

    approx 55% ES, 90% TJ

  9. #1599
    don't fence me in sui generis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asterion View Post
    [ringo star accent] Dear ESTJs,

    What do you make of Abortion?

    yours truly, Asterion.[/ringo star accent]
    Oooh, fancy.

    Anyway, I'm pro-choice. I was, quite literally, in the pro-life club in high school (I attended Catholic school) but my views have changed dramatically in the years since. I believe abortion is a private choice between a woman, her partner, and her doctor. I believe an abortion causes way less pain and heartache than bringing a child into a world where s/he is unwanted, resented, not taken care of. As an adopted person myself, I hate it when people propose adoption as an alternative to abortion. I don't think that adoption is a real alternative to abortion-- it still requires a woman to carry a fetus to term and deal with the emotional fallout of placing her child for adoption. I could go on about this for hours, but it'll be tl;dr.

    And of course I don't speak for ALL of the ESTJs
    Murphy Brown: What is it with us? Why can't we take the easy road once in awhile?
    Avery Brown: Because it's boring and dishonest and uncomfortable, like wearing a pair of shoes all day that pinch your feet.

    approx 55% ES, 90% TJ

  10. #1600
    Junior Member feisty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Istbkleta View Post
    I am interested in the average female who usually accepts traditional gender roles.
    Quote Originally Posted by sui generis View Post
    I don't reconcile shit. The traditional female role can fuck straight off. I agree with what EJCC said about my personality not being able to exist within gender roles-- I co-sign her post 100%.
    Hi I'm new

    I wouldn't say I've "accepted" a traditional gender role, because that sounds like there is a degree of reluctancy attached to it. Rather, I really enjoy the "female role" of things like being in the kitchen. Also I am VERY hospitable by nature- not a people-pleaser- but I get a bit of validation out of hosting/serving/hospitality and that just happens to line up with society's woman-role...

    Some dude once made a quip about making him a sandwich or some bullshit and I'm like, "Welp, you're honestly shootin blanks with the kitchen jokes because I love cooking and being in the kitchen.... and had you not been a dickface and ordered me around like that, I'd be in there now making you something."

    What other traditional gender roles are you referring to?

    As far as parenting, I hate children. I don't feel like I need to pro-create to be considered a valid female human being. I'm not a nurturing kind of woman and deal with children accordingly... if I must be around kids (I generally avoid them), I speak to them almost like adults.

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