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Thread: Ask an ESTJ!

  1. #1571
    don't fence me in Array sui generis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    are ESTJs as likely to honestly believe that they're objective when they aren't? Because for the most part I am aware of my Fi and try to not talk about it -- which is why I avoid morality arguments, instead of bulldozing through them like "This is objective fact and not based on my Fi at all!!!!! How DARE you claim that it's my Fi!!"
    I identify with this. For me it plays out as a tendency to become overly emotional in debates when things matter to me , a near-inability to understand why someone might have different religious/political beliefs from me (because mine are obviously OBJECTIVE FACT!!!111, lolz), and my insistence that I'm a realist when my INFP BFF says it's more like pessimism.
    Murphy Brown: What is it with us? Why can't we take the easy road once in awhile?
    Avery Brown: Because it's boring and dishonest and uncomfortable, like wearing a pair of shoes all day that pinch your feet.

    approx 55% ES, 90% TJ

  2. #1572
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    Quote Originally Posted by sui generis View Post
    I identify with this. For me it plays out as a tendency to become overly emotional in debates when things matter to me , a near-inability to understand why someone might have different religious/political beliefs from me (because mine are obviously OBJECTIVE FACT!!!111, lolz), and my insistence that I'm a realist when my INFP BFF says it's more like pessimism.
    wow, i am more similar to ESTJs than previously thought!

  3. #1573
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    ^^^ This is not a huge surprise. I've said this before somewhere, but my INFP BFF and I often come to the same conclusions from completely different places. It makes sense to me!
    Murphy Brown: What is it with us? Why can't we take the easy road once in awhile?
    Avery Brown: Because it's boring and dishonest and uncomfortable, like wearing a pair of shoes all day that pinch your feet.

    approx 55% ES, 90% TJ

  4. #1574
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    Quote Originally Posted by sui generis View Post
    ^^^ This is not a huge surprise. I've said this before somewhere, but my INFP BFF and I often come to the same conclusions from completely different places. It makes sense to me!
    to my FiNe SiTe brethren!

  5. #1575
    Away with the fairies Array Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Hi EJCC!

    I have questions relating to tertiary Ne and inferior Fi in ESTJs. In what ways do these manifest in you? Do they ever have an effect on that ESTJ pragmatism? Can they blind your decision-making or get you carried away with overly-idealistic dreams?

    The reason I ask is, I have a ESTJ Auntie, whom I love, but has some rather annoying issues, particularly relating mainly to these functions. She is rather easily enamoured with the idea of something regardless of the practicality of it and whether she will genuinely like/enjoy/value it in reality. There are many examples of this but here are a few:

    1. She gets caught up in every food or health fad that comes along and proclaims each one as revolutionary and raves about how everything will be magically fixed by it. While I am open minded to alternative forms of medicine etc to a degree, almost all of these have next to no basis in science and often sound like total snake oil to me. However, she just loves the idea that she is up with the play and ahead of the curve and that she can tell everyone about it. When you (politely) question the validity of these 'cures', she remains 100% convinced and provides some rather lame arguments for them that often consist of something along how she "saw this thing on Oprah".
    2. She has become slightly pretentious and snobby the last few years. She likes to have friends who are wealthy, important or have lives she can indirectly boast about in stories she tells about them. It's not so much that she actually likes these people better, its the idea of them that pleases her.
    3. She boasts (not obnoxiously but slightly pointedly) about qualities her children have. Of course it is natural to do this to some degree but often it's not really that she finds these qualities intrinsically admirable - it's about how special and interesting they seem - such as, her son being fluent in German.
    4. She has these big dream ideas that are completely impractical and unrealistic. For example my family own a beach house with her family (and with my Dad's 2 other brother's families) and the house behind ours was for sale. She had this scheme of buying it to have for when her kids grow up so they could bring their families (BTW her kids are 17, 15, and with twin 11 year olds). She doesn't think that all that is YEARS away and that her kids might actually want to spent their holiday's elsewhere or even that we might sell our beach house eventually or even that the other house will likely cost a fortune to buy anyway.

    As a disclaimer, I know several ESTJs who don't do this at all (who in fact don't give flying f*ck about such things ) so I don't attribute this to the type in general, perhaps only as a potential nuance within it.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  6. #1576
    Away with the fairies Array Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I have a question about ESTJs, to ESTJs and people who know them well -- and it's kind of an "Is it just me?" question.

    If you're talking to a pissed-off ESTJ and you try to lighten the mood, how do they usually react?

    I ask because I have a really frustrating tendency to get more irritated when people try to lighten the mood. It makes things really awkward for everyone, and I'm the only person I know who reacts that way. I kind of think it's a gut reaction, interpreting their trying to lighten the mood as trying to make light of me, my opinions, my feelings, etc, and immediately taking it as an insult. "How dare you make light of this serious thing?? Shut up and LISTEN to me!!" -- but the thing is, that reaction is stupid, and I wish it would go away except that since it's instinctive, it's probably not something I can get rid of. And that could be because it's type-related? Maybe?
    Yep that's familiar

    My ESTJ sister need validation when she's pissed-off - the worst thing you can do is belittle her feelings. You could yell at her or call her names and she can handle it but tell her she's being ridiculous and OTT (either directly or indirectly) and you'd better run for cover.

    I do understand the desire to defuse the tension somehow. When my sister is getting mad in public, I'm often trying to calm the situation so she doesn't start unleashing on others. It makes everyone extremely uncomfortable and often people will think she's a crazy bitch (which she isn't) and I'd rather protect her from that image.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  7. #1577
    came back haunted Array EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mujigay View Post
    Maybe you're special. In my experience, ESTJs are equally as likely to believe that they're honestly objective as NTJs. Basically, 99% of the time. Never mind that the Fi is usually coming out strong in both, and either is likely to start slinging the objectivity accusations when they feel their emotional danger zone being crossed by the other. It's like an unstoppable force meeting an immovable object: both are absolutely convinced that they're being scientific in their arguments, so by that token, the other must be emotionally deluded.
    I'm probably just in denial. I'll bet I do the same thing and don't realize it because I haven't introspected enough about it.

    It does explain why I hate debating INTJs, though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    wow, i am more similar to ESTJs than previously thought!
    cough Fi cough

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Hi EJCC!

    I have questions relating to tertiary Ne and inferior Fi in ESTJs. In what ways do these manifest in you? Do they ever have an effect on that ESTJ pragmatism? Can they blind your decision-making or get you carried away with overly-idealistic dreams?
    Before I answer this, I'm going to nitpick your aunt a little
    1. She gets caught up in every food or health fad that comes along and proclaims each one as revolutionary and raves about how everything will be magically fixed by it. While I am open minded to alternative forms of medicine etc to a degree, almost all of these have next to no basis in science and often sound like total snake oil to me. However, she just loves the idea that she is up with the play and ahead of the curve and that she can tell everyone about it. When you (politely) question the validity of these 'cures', she remains 100% convinced and provides some rather lame arguments for them that often consist of something along how she "saw this thing on Oprah".
    I don't relate to this. I think this comes from her having different standards of what constitutes a "trustworthy source". I for one have not trusted Oprah since she started believing "The Secret". I'll believe those fads when someone like the New York Times, the Washington Post, NPR, (Wired magazine?), etc. tells me they're real.
    2. She has become slightly pretentious and snobby the last few years. She likes to have friends who are wealthy, important or have lives she can indirectly boast about in stories she tells about them. It's not so much that she actually likes these people better, its the idea of them that pleases her.
    I don't relate to status obsession. I wasn't really raised with it. But I can see that it would be cool to have rich friends, if you really wanted them and finally had them. If I had a cool new thing for the first time, I'd probably brag about it too.
    3. She boasts (not obnoxiously but slightly pointedly) about qualities her children have. Of course it is natural to do this to some degree but often it's not really that she finds these qualities intrinsically admirable - it's about how special and interesting they seem - such as, her son being fluent in German.
    I'm confused by this complaint. Is this irritating to you? Also -- how are special and interesting traits not admirable? If I think something is really special and interesting, then I think it's worth bragging about, because I want everyone else to know how cool it is. I put admirable things in the same category. Anything that makes you go "Holy cow, are you serious?!?" as a result.

    I ask because I didn't realize that that sort of enthusiasm turned people off.
    4. She has these big dream ideas that are completely impractical and unrealistic. For example my family own a beach house with her family (and with my Dad's 2 other brother's families) and the house behind ours was for sale. She had this scheme of buying it to have for when her kids grow up so they could bring their families (BTW her kids are 17, 15, and with twin 11 year olds). She doesn't think that all that is YEARS away and that her kids might actually want to spent their holiday's elsewhere or even that we might sell our beach house eventually or even that the other house will likely cost a fortune to buy anyway.
    Are you sure she was serious? Sometimes when my Ne is active I'll say things like "How cool would it be if...", but I won't actually mean it, and I won't plan on following up on it. I'll just think that the hypothetical scenario is fun. If your aunt really cared about it, she'd probably have followed up on it, called the realtor, asked the kids, etc. Because that's how ESTJs do those things. But if she made the statement and then did nothing and said very little about it later, then she was just being silly.

    Now to answer your question: As you can tell by my responses, my Ne usually shows up with random ideas, silly thoughts, hypotheticals, big ideas, and LOTS OF ENTHUSIASM. The most that my Ne ever gets in the way of my pragmatism is if I suddenly get the notion to buy all the materials necessary for a project, and then get bored with the idea and regret buying the stuff. Pretty much every "impulse buy" I've made in recent years has been due to Ne: "OMG HOW COOL IS THAT LET'S GET IT!" But for the most part, my Ne is effectively controlled by my Te. I don't let it get too out of control.

    I don't really connect my Ne to my Fi in that regard, though. My Ne doesn't get used to dream idealistic dreams -- unless I'm in a silly mood, and I go "What if the world was made of candy corn..." Usually when my Ne is prominent, it's in the form of an Ne-Te loop: having an idea for doing a cool thing, and then doing the cool thing. Makes for LOTS of study distractions -- but not really dreams of world peace.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Yep that's familiar

    My ESTJ sister need validation when she's pissed-off - the worst thing you can do is belittle her feelings. You could yell at her or call her names and she can handle it but tell her she's being ridiculous and OTT (either directly or indirectly) and you'd better run for cover.

    I do understand the desire to defuse the tension somehow. When my sister is getting mad in public, I'm often trying to calm the situation so she doesn't start unleashing on others. It makes everyone extremely uncomfortable and often people will think she's a crazy bitch (which she isn't) and I'd rather protect her from that image.
    I relate to all of this. The bolded is an especially interesting insight -- because since I don't know anyone else irl who is like that, and no one I'm friends with relates to it (one of my only fights with my ENFJ friend started when he got angry with me for "overreacting" to him teasing me when I was embarrassed), I do usually feel like a crazy bitch when I react that way. It's part of why I hate that the reaction is instinctive. I don't want to act like a crazy bitch. I don't want to be seen as that, because -- like you said -- I'm not one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nørrsken impersonating EJCC
    It's strange. I keep banning morons, but they keep signing up? What is this?
    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
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    want to ask me something? go for it!

  8. #1578
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    ESTJ females:

    How do you reconcile in your head the traditional female role (since you are Si traditionalists) with your desire to tell your partner what to do cause it's the right thing (Te)?

  9. #1579
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    Quote Originally Posted by Istbkleta View Post
    ESTJ females:

    How do you reconcile in your head the traditional female role (since you are Si traditionalists) with your desire to tell your partner what to do cause it's the right thing (Te)?
    If there has been one theme on this thread, throughout its history, it has been that "tradition" is a subjective term. I'm a female ESTJ, and because I wasn't raised in an environment where gender roles mattered, and because I don't live in a community where gender roles matter, I just don't care about them. I don't reconcile my Te with gender roles, because I have accepted the fact that my personality (not my personality type, but my personality as a whole) can't really function in the construct of gender roles.

    If my partner can't handle my Te, then too bad for him. If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nørrsken impersonating EJCC
    It's strange. I keep banning morons, but they keep signing up? What is this?
    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
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    want to ask me something? go for it!

  10. #1580
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    (...)
    I'm confused by this complaint. Is this irritating to you? Also -- how are special and interesting traits not admirable? If I think something is really special and interesting, then I think it's worth bragging about, because I want everyone else to know how cool it is. I put admirable things in the same category. Anything that makes you go "Holy cow, are you serious?!?" as a result.

    I ask because I didn't realize that that sort of enthusiasm turned people off.

    Are you sure she was serious? Sometimes when my Ne is active I'll say things like "How cool would it be if...", but I won't actually mean it, and I won't plan on following up on it. I'll just think that the hypothetical scenario is fun. If your aunt really cared about it, she'd probably have followed up on it, called the realtor, asked the kids, etc. Because that's how ESTJs do those things. But if she made the statement and then did nothing and said very little about it later, then she was just being silly.

    Now to answer your question: As you can tell by my responses, my Ne usually shows up with random ideas, silly thoughts, hypotheticals, big ideas, and LOTS OF ENTHUSIASM. The most that my Ne ever gets in the way of my pragmatism is if I suddenly get the notion to buy all the materials necessary for a project, and then get bored with the idea and regret buying the stuff. Pretty much every "impulse buy" I've made in recent years has been due to Ne: "OMG HOW COOL IS THAT LET'S GET IT!" But for the most part, my Ne is effectively controlled by my Te. I don't let it get too out of control.

    I don't really connect my Ne to my Fi in that regard, though. My Ne doesn't get used to dream idealistic dreams -- unless I'm in a silly mood, and I go "What if the world was made of candy corn..." Usually when my Ne is prominent, it's in the form of an Ne-Te loop: having an idea for doing a cool thing, and then doing the cool thing. Makes for LOTS of study distractions -- but not really dreams of world peace.
    Huh.
    The first bolded would mean I'm a total bore. I'm enthousiastic about just anything. If you have a problem with that, please just go away. Otherwise, let's swap cupcake recipes!
    The second bolded. You really think you need a Te to get into doing cool things? Just imagining isn't enough for my Ne - it's extraverted, you know, it wants to interact with the real world. I don't need Te to start huge projects... I need it to complete them!!

    About ESTJs and tradition: I think you're quite able to establish new traditions. Traditions don't need to come from what society expects from you. Si has got the supporting role: goals are easier to reach if you know how to get to them.
    On the whole, I think ESTJs are contented people. They're easily satisfied with how things are done. If they are not, you'll get the whole Te-I'll-reach-this-whatever-it-takes.
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