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Thread: Ask an ESTJ!

  1. #1561
    lords of summer EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Ms EJCC,

    Are estjs typicaly aware of discord or confusion in teams they manage? Also, does an estj expect that everyone will be as extroverted as quickly as they are? My new estj boss is amazingly awesome, but i think she is confused as to why I dont just leap into action. For me, I need to build context before I ca make suggestions I have any confidence in...
    Re: the first question, I think it depends on the ESTJ. This past weekend I went on a retreat with a student group that I'm a part of, and we spent half a day doing workshops on a test called StrengthsQuest, which ranks your natural tendency towards 34(?) strengths and gives you your top 5 or 10. My number one was "Harmony", which means that conflict is not my first choice and therefore I tend to look for areas of agreement and consensus. Not that I'm not willing to start a fight if it's necessary -- but I'd really rather not create bad feelings and discord. This is especially true for me since, as an ESTJ, I might not be able to think of good ways to fix the discord, so once I see it and am upset by it, I often shut down because I don't know how to respond.

    In short, I'm very, very aware of discord, but I'm 99% sure that other ESTJs are different.

    Re: your second question, I don't know if it's extroversion in general, but it's definitely Te. Just as everyone is prone towards expecting other people to act just like them, ESTJs tend to expect other people to use Te when solving problems, and just Get It Done-- instead of using Ti and carefully collecting all necessary information before acting. Have you tried voicing your uncertainty? The ESTJ would immediately understand where you're coming from if, in work situations, you ask questions to get any information you need. After all, I'm exactly the same way; if I have to do something I've never done before, I want to know how to do it perfectly before I even begin to try, because that builds up my non-existent confidence in getting the (new) job done well. So if someone else was in the same situation, I would relate to them immediately -- and I would be happy to answer their questions to the best of my ability, because I would want the job to be done well, and giving the best advice would lead to the best results.
    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"

    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
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    want to ask me something? go for it!

  2. #1562
    Writing... Tamske's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    Tamske, my entp friend notes that lists of tasks always make her feel like a "washing machine" doing things, but not things that actually amount to anything real? I dunno, as I dont identify with that, but for her it seems to be very real... Theoretically anything that engages Ne or Fe for you, should be most energizing, thus most easily accomplished. Perhaps rather than trying to motivate yourself from the Te/list of tasks perpsective, motivate by seeing the underlying value for your family each task can help support-Fe- or by seeing the possibilities that each task may open up for you-Ne? *Hugs*
    Thanks Oro,
    That washing machine picture is quite right. I don't feel rewarded after doing chores. I've been thinking about it on-and-off and it's more or less like this.
    You've got things that need to be done and aren't rewarding, let's call them chores.
    You've got things that you want to get done and are rewarding, let's call them projects.
    I used to use the projects as a carrot for the chores "I mustn't write before I've done these errands". Which resulted in neither one being done. Or only the chores, to which my subconscious said "See, you've done nothing but chores today. Luckily you didn't start with them first!"
    If I have a big list of chores, I subconsciously think "Don't begin with them, because you'll find you'll need more time than expected, leaving you no time at all for your projects" Of course, this is all subconscious, otherwise Ti would shoot that sort of thinking down in no time The conscious version of this is "while you're waiting, you can as well read a bit", which is no problem at all for Ti.
    I'm now trying to bring the thinking into the conscious, looking at what I'm doing, and try to catch the error. Because putting off the chores leads to a worse thing than having done only chores - namely not having done chores NOR projects.
    This Monday I've started with cleaning the bathroom, despite my subconscious fear that I'll be cleaning all day instead of three hours. I did clean more than planned - I found out how to remove some ugly stains, which meant I couldn't leave them, and thus meant more work. I felt cheated. If I had put it off until I had only two hours, the bathroom would be clean in two hours. (And not those stains removed, but that wouldn't feel like a problem then. It's only a problem if you know you CAN remove those stains. I used the word "feel" deliberately here.)
    But still I wrote more than a thousand words on Monday. Which made my day. If I had put the work off, I wouldn't felt entitled to writing, and wouldn't have written anything. Thinking about that will, maybe, get me to do the chores first. And the projects afterwards!

    When it went all wrong, I had a huge list of chores. Which didn't get done in the end. The longer the list, the more I'd have this fear that my day would be "nothing but chores" and the more I'd have the tendency to put them off. So now I try to have a short list for each day. I know our bedroom doesn't need cleaning yet, but I'll do it if I can avoid a "clean whole house" on my list. (<- whoa isn't this a J reasoning!)

    I wrote 500+ words on Tuesday and 1000+ on Wednesday. So I'm still going strong, both on the writing and the chores. My Fe thanks you for the support. (My Ne is inventing stories, I won't bore you with them.)
    Got questions? Ask an ENTP!
    I'm female. I just can't draw women

  3. #1563
    lords of summer EJCC's Avatar
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    I have a question about ESTJs, to ESTJs and people who know them well -- and it's kind of an "Is it just me?" question.

    If you're talking to a pissed-off ESTJ and you try to lighten the mood, how do they usually react?

    I ask because I have a really frustrating tendency to get more irritated when people try to lighten the mood. It makes things really awkward for everyone, and I'm the only person I know who reacts that way. I kind of think it's a gut reaction, interpreting their trying to lighten the mood as trying to make light of me, my opinions, my feelings, etc, and immediately taking it as an insult. "How dare you make light of this serious thing?? Shut up and LISTEN to me!!" -- but the thing is, that reaction is stupid, and I wish it would go away except that since it's instinctive, it's probably not something I can get rid of. And that could be because it's type-related? Maybe?
    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"

    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    lawful good (D&D) / ravenclaw + wampus (HP) / boros legion (M:TG)
    conscientious > sensitive > serious (oldham)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

  4. #1564
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    If you're talking to a pissed-off ESTJ and you try to lighten the mood, how do they usually react?
    Poorly.
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

  5. #1565
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I have a question about ESTJs, to ESTJs and people who know them well -- and it's kind of an "Is it just me?" question.

    If you're talking to a pissed-off ESTJ and you try to lighten the mood, how do they usually react?

    I ask because I have a really frustrating tendency to get more irritated when people try to lighten the mood. It makes things really awkward for everyone, and I'm the only person I know who reacts that way. I kind of think it's a gut reaction, interpreting their trying to lighten the mood as trying to make light of me, my opinions, my feelings, etc, and immediately taking it as an insult. "How dare you make light of this serious thing?? Shut up and LISTEN to me!!" -- but the thing is, that reaction is stupid, and I wish it would go away except that since it's instinctive, it's probably not something I can get rid of. And that could be because it's type-related? Maybe?
    Dear Shadow Self,

    I am the same way too. When I dated my ENTP his first reaction was always to make some kind of joke to "lighten things up" when I wanted to have a SRS BSNS talk. That was just not a good idea....


    ~The other side of you swamped in jello

  6. #1566
    don't fence me in sui generis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I have a question about ESTJs, to ESTJs and people who know them well -- and it's kind of an "Is it just me?" question.

    If you're talking to a pissed-off ESTJ and you try to lighten the mood, how do they usually react?

    I ask because I have a really frustrating tendency to get more irritated when people try to lighten the mood. It makes things really awkward for everyone, and I'm the only person I know who reacts that way. I kind of think it's a gut reaction, interpreting their trying to lighten the mood as trying to make light of me, my opinions, my feelings, etc, and immediately taking it as an insult. "How dare you make light of this serious thing?? Shut up and LISTEN to me!!" -- but the thing is, that reaction is stupid, and I wish it would go away except that since it's instinctive, it's probably not something I can get rid of. And that could be because it's type-related? Maybe?

    I'm with you 100% here. It's perhaps the most infuriating thing ever. I read it as belittling my feelings, invalidating, telling me that what I find important isn't important. It's like telling me to "calm down", but on a much larger scale. I'll "get over it" when I get over it, thanks.
    Murphy Brown: What is it with us? Why can't we take the easy road once in awhile?
    Avery Brown: Because it's boring and dishonest and uncomfortable, like wearing a pair of shoes all day that pinch your feet.

    approx 55% ES, 90% TJ

  7. #1567
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sui generis View Post
    I'm with you 100% here. It's perhaps the most infuriating thing ever. I read it as belittling my feelings, invalidating, telling me that what I find important isn't important. It's like telling me to "calm down", but on a much larger scale. I'll "get over it" when I get over it, thanks.
    I've got to say though, I think ESTJs do this themselves not infrequently. (making a poorly timed joke to try and lighten things up.) I've seen it done instead of an apology, which would actually have been the appropriate thing.
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  8. #1568
    don't fence me in sui generis's Avatar
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    ^^ I try not to do that precisely because I know I hate it so much
    Murphy Brown: What is it with us? Why can't we take the easy road once in awhile?
    Avery Brown: Because it's boring and dishonest and uncomfortable, like wearing a pair of shoes all day that pinch your feet.

    approx 55% ES, 90% TJ

  9. #1569
    lords of summer EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    Poorly.
    Yep.
    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    Dear Shadow Self,

    I am the same way too. When I dated my ENTP his first reaction was always to make some kind of joke to "lighten things up" when I wanted to have a SRS BSNS talk. That was just not a good idea....


    ~The other side of you swamped in jello
    Dear shadow self,

    Thanks! I'll bet it's an STJ/NFP (but not NTJ) thing. Fi up the wazoo.

    - The other side of you now covered in jello and in need of a change of clothes

    p.s. Where did all that jello come from, anyway?
    Quote Originally Posted by sui generis View Post
    I'm with you 100% here. It's perhaps the most infuriating thing ever. I read it as belittling my feelings, invalidating, telling me that what I find important isn't important. It's like telling me to "calm down", but on a much larger scale. I'll "get over it" when I get over it, thanks.
    Absolutely. This is part of the reasons why the debates/arguments I have with my INTJ friends tend to escalate so quickly; not only will they do that, but they will 1) be totally bewildered by my frustration because they didn't see it coming beforehand (either due to them being Fe-challenged, or due to my enneagram 1 anger-stealth, or both), and 2) accuse me of "getting too emotional about it". <-- You ever wonder why ESTJs hide their Fi? THIS is why. We see this coming a mile away.

    Follow-up "Is it just me" question: Compared to NTJs, are ESTJs as likely to honestly believe that they're objective when they aren't? Because for the most part I am aware of my Fi and try to not talk about it -- which is why I avoid morality arguments, instead of bulldozing through them like "This is objective fact and not based on my Fi at all!!!!! How DARE you claim that it's my Fi!!"
    Quote Originally Posted by sui generis View Post
    ^^ I try not to do that precisely because I know I hate it so much
    !!!!!

    Those ESTJs need to learn to stop being so hypocritical.
    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"

    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    lawful good (D&D) / ravenclaw + wampus (HP) / boros legion (M:TG)
    conscientious > sensitive > serious (oldham)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

  10. #1570
    Intergalactic Badass mujigay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Yep.

    Dear shadow self,

    Thanks! I'll bet it's an STJ/NFP (but not NTJ) thing. Fi up the wazoo.

    - The other side of you now covered in jello and in need of a change of clothes

    p.s. Where did all that jello come from, anyway?

    Absolutely. This is part of the reasons why the debates/arguments I have with my INTJ friends tend to escalate so quickly; not only will they do that, but they will 1) be totally bewildered by my frustration because they didn't see it coming beforehand (either due to them being Fe-challenged, or due to my enneagram 1 anger-stealth, or both), and 2) accuse me of "getting too emotional about it". <-- You ever wonder why ESTJs hide their Fi? THIS is why. We see this coming a mile away.

    Follow-up "Is it just me" question: Compared to NTJs, are ESTJs as likely to honestly believe that they're objective when they aren't? Because for the most part I am aware of my Fi and try to not talk about it -- which is why I avoid morality arguments, instead of bulldozing through them like "This is objective fact and not based on my Fi at all!!!!! How DARE you claim that it's my Fi!!" !!!!!

    Those ESTJs need to learn to stop being so hypocritical.
    Maybe you're special. In my experience, ESTJs are equally as likely to believe that they're honestly objective as NTJs. Basically, 99% of the time. Never mind that the Fi is usually coming out strong in both, and either is likely to start slinging the objectivity accusations when they feel their emotional danger zone being crossed by the other. It's like an unstoppable force meeting an immovable object: both are absolutely convinced that they're being scientific in their arguments, so by that token, the other must be emotionally deluded.
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