User Tag List

First 50100140148149150151152160200250 Last

Results 1,491 to 1,500 of 2615

Thread: Ask an ESTJ!

  1. #1491
    lords of summer EJCC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    173 so/sx
    Posts
    18,209

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Idec Sdawkminn View Post
    He's the telephony guy at the place I work at and I'm helpdesk. He likes reminding me that he has 30+ years experience in telephony and he can't teach 30+ years experience. Ever since I started, he's always had a problem with me. I don't know his type, but I guess ESxJ. My wife (we believe ISFJ) says he just doesn't like me and uses any excuse he can to blame me for something.
    I honestly think she's wrong about the second part of that -- although it's obvious that he doesn't like you, he is definitely not out to get you. That isn't really how ESTJs operate. I would argue that we aren't vengeful people by nature, although it probably depends on enneatype, a little bit (e.g. I could see an ESTJ 3 being pretty vengeful).

    One time, ONE TIME, I played a joke on him. I remotely placed a Mexican song on his computer and set it to play instead of the "click" sound that Internet Explorer makes when starting to load a page. Ever since then, whenever ANYTHING goes wrong on his computer, one of the things out of his mouth is "you're not messing with me and making this happen, right?" Yeah, Doug, I'm really going to make your email repeatedly fail to connect to the server so you can't get your email and bug me all day about it. That's a really funny joke. I tell him that I played ONE joke on him and that I'll never make that mistake again, but each time something happens he always suspects me as one of the possible causes.
    I actually relate to his frustration and distrust; I would react similarly, though not as extremely. I freaking HATE being pranked, and if other ESTJs are like me, then they would too, because ESTJs hate being humiliated, they hate being made fun of, they hate losing their dignity -- especially in an obvious way, like that, in front of other people whose respect they want to earn. Even the nice kind of pranking, like being surprised for your birthday, can be frustrating, because it requires people lying to you and tricking you beforehand. It can be hard to let go of the fact that your birthday was ignored and disrespected, even if it only appeared that way.

    Also (and this might not be type-related?), I tend to see people who regularly play pranks as being untrustworthy. It's doing something behind your back, in the hopes of humiliating you in public and then laughing at you -- which is very hurtful! I see them in almost the same light as I see compulsive liars. I don't mean this as an insult to you, because I know a lot of it is irrational, and my problem.

    Regarding the part I bolded: I, and probably other ESTJs as well, don't see those two things as being any more or less funny than each other. They both seem, from a sensitive ESTJ perspective, like hijacking and humiliation.

    He used to complain to our boss about things he heard all the time from other people in the company, like how they didn't get their computer fixed right away. He's stopped because our boss never did anything about it and when I'd ask our boss about it, he'd say that he has his own opinions of people and doesn't let other people make that decision for him.
    I'm on the ESTJ's side, here. If something's going wrong, someone has to report it, right? The ESTJ is just trying to be a good citizen and a good employee. Frankly, if the boss doesn't listen to the employees when they have complaints, but instead says "I have my opinions and you have yours", that's dictatorial and undemocratic and just not good boss behavior.
    He's also very controlling. He acts like my boss when he's not. When he hears of a computer problem someone is having, he understandably informs me of it since he knows next to nothing about computers. However, he doesn't just inform me. He proceeds to tell me that I need to help them fix it and to call them right away. He doesn't care what I'm working on at the time. He sometimes settles for me calling them soon, but keeps checking back with me to see if I helped them yet and gets all aggressive and accusatory if I haven't. He says that since he was the point of contact, he is responsible for making sure it gets done, or he'll look bad for my shortcomings. He also dislikes how I sit at my desk all day and do the vast majority of tech support over the phone or remotely connecting to people's computers. I'm sure he believes I should be out and about all over fixing everything in person. Yeah, maybe that wouldn't be so bad if I didn't have to manage servers and domain settings and everything else computer-related in the company.
    I relate to this to a degree. Obviously he's being ignorant, and not caring that he's ignorant. But I relate to the bolded. It's definitely an ESTJ tendency to supervise things and be very certain that everything is being done the way it should be -- ESPECIALLY if the ESTJ has a personal stake in the matter. And it doesn't help that he distrusts you. If he trusted you, he would go a little easier on you, I think.
    Then it just turns into me making defensive statements and him saying I'm not answering his questions and trying to avoid the situation. The most common things he says that I hate are "that didn't answer my question" and "you sound just like a politician." He also always accuses me of giving him little bits of information to his questions and making him fish and fish for more information to get his question answered. I feel like I gave him a perfectly satisfactory answer, but it always confuses him and he accuses me of playing word games with him and trying to avoid answering him.
    A common Ti vs. Te communication issue. His accusing you of consciously withholding information from you is stupid and paranoid, but the rest is pretty predictable. You, as a Ti dom, were coming from a position where you weren't sure how to give an accurate picture of the situation without explaining in either perfect or near-perfect detail, because all information is potentially relevant. But he, as a Te dom, was expecting you to give him a direct and straightforward answer -- like in Journalism class, where one of the first things you learn is to give the most important information of the story in your first paragraph, and then continue in reverse order of importance. That's Te.

    Here are some relevant posts, relating to that.
    Really? Call Ed? Where the fuck does he get that I'm unwilling to help him? Does he really think I was withholding the answer from him because I wanted to make him upset? Why would I want to waste my time on the phone with him just to do that? Why is his initial assumption that I'm intentionally being difficult?
    Because he was very, very angry. Reading that dialogue was interesting to me, because it confirms how I come across when I'm very angry, i.e. aggressively matter-of-fact. I can almost guarantee that everything about him seeming accusatory was from his anger at the situation -- not his anger at you. Te under stress can turn ExTJs from decent people into armed military vehicles, storming through the city, mowing down everything in their path. The task MUST GET DONE, the thing MUST GET FIXED, and it's too frustrating and all-consuming to give the ExTJ enough energy to maintain their ever-present facade of politeness. And with most ESTJs (not me as much, because I've started catching myself when I think this way), if something goes horribly wrong, it is absolutely not their fault. Obviously the ESTJ is doing everything in their power to fix it, and obviously they are completely in the right, and the world is against them. I remember when I was a kid, whenever I would lose something, my first thought was always that someone stole it. Same kind of thought process.

    EDIT: To answer your question, regarding how to get on better terms with him, I would advise that you

    1) Try to be as direct with him as he is with you -- not regarding your feelings, but regarding work-related things. (For example, if he says "Why aren't you getting this done now?", just say "I have to do these two things first, but as soon as they're done, I'll deal with it, and I'll get back to you." Directness is the ESTJ's language; it may seem accusatory to you, but for the most part, we're fine with it when we're in your position. I have yet to see an ESTJ who had been made uncomfortable by being relentlessly questioned about something.)
    2) Do as best you can about leaving behind any resentment you have towards his control-freakish behavior, and his acting like your boss. I doubt that there's any way that behavior can be changed, except by gradually gaining his trust, and even then it will never entirely go away.
    3) Show him through your actions that you always get things done on time, that you are actually a capable and trustworthy employee, and that he never has to worry about you slacking off or causing him any job-related harm. And finally...
    4) Apologize for pranking him, and swear to him that you will never do it again. You don't need to take him aside to do this; maybe the next time he accuses you of doing something to his computer, you can fit it in?

    I hope that helps a little If not, I'll try again.
    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"

    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    lawful good (D&D) / ravenclaw + wampus (HP) / boros legion (M:TG)
    conscientious > sensitive > serious (oldham)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

  2. #1492
    don't fence me in sui generis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    MBTI
    esTJ
    Enneagram
    875 sx/sp
    Socionics
    ESTx
    Posts
    746

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I actually relate to his frustration and distrust; I would react similarly, though not as extremely. I freaking HATE being pranked, and if other ESTJs are like me, then they would too, because ESTJs hate being humiliated, they hate being made fun of, they hate losing their dignity -- especially in an obvious way, like that, in front of other people whose respect they want to earn. Even the nice kind of pranking, like being surprised for your birthday, can be frustrating, because it requires people lying to you and tricking you beforehand. It can be hard to let go of the fact that your birthday was ignored and disrespected, even if it only appeared that way.

    Also (and this might not be type-related?), I tend to see people who regularly play pranks as being untrustworthy. It's doing something behind your back, in the hopes of humiliating you in public and then laughing at you -- which is very hurtful! I see them in almost the same light as I see compulsive liars. I don't mean this as an insult to you, because I know a lot of it is irrational, and my problem.
    Agreed SO COMPLETELY about pranks, even benign pranks, and even "good" surprises. (This is why I've made it clear to my friends that a surprise party for me WOULD NOT BE a good idea.) It does feel like a kind of dishonesty/lies, and regarding the computer sound-file hack, I'd have also felt violated on top of humiliated. (I think one's computer is kind of a private thing and I'd be weirded out that he changed my settings.)
    Murphy Brown: What is it with us? Why can't we take the easy road once in awhile?
    Avery Brown: Because it's boring and dishonest and uncomfortable, like wearing a pair of shoes all day that pinch your feet.

    approx 55% ES, 90% TJ

  3. #1493
    Senior Member Idec Sdawkminn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    MBTI
    EPIC
    Posts
    145

    Default

    Thanks for your responses.

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I actually relate to his frustration and distrust; I would react similarly, though not as extremely. I freaking HATE being pranked, and if other ESTJs are like me, then they would too, because ESTJs hate being humiliated, they hate being made fun of, they hate losing their dignity -- especially in an obvious way, like that, in front of other people whose respect they want to earn. Even the nice kind of pranking, like being surprised for your birthday, can be frustrating, because it requires people lying to you and tricking you beforehand. It can be hard to let go of the fact that your birthday was ignored and disrespected, even if it only appeared that way.

    Also (and this might not be type-related?), I tend to see people who regularly play pranks as being untrustworthy. It's doing something behind your back, in the hopes of humiliating you in public and then laughing at you -- which is very hurtful! I see them in almost the same light as I see compulsive liars. I don't mean this as an insult to you, because I know a lot of it is irrational, and my problem.

    Regarding the part I bolded: I, and probably other ESTJs as well, don't see those two things as being any more or less funny than each other. They both seem, from a sensitive ESTJ perspective, like hijacking and humiliation.
    First of all, you reminded me of this awesome scene:



    Okay, so I can sort of agree with you guys about the prank as well. I wouldn't like it, either. But I didn't do it where several people would witness it. He has his own office, so I just intended for him to hear it, try to figure it out, and see what transpired. It was more of a "I wonder if he'll be able to figure it out and how long it will take" type of thing. Turns out he's really private about his computer (his company-owned computer). When he asked my co-worker to give him a file, he simply copied it remotely to his desktop. My co-worker and I do that all the time to each other. "Hey, it should be on your desktop." "Thanks." Well, Doug comes in immediately and demands to know how he did it.

    Terry: I just copied it to your desktop.
    Doug: Yeah, but how?
    Terry: (wiggles fingers in the air) Magic.
    Doug: No, Terry, I'm serious. How did you do it?
    Terry: We're the systems administrators. We can do anything like that. Just like you can do your trick of connecting to my desk phone and talking to me on the speaker without me even answering it.
    Doug: So, you guys can see my screen?
    Terry: Of course.
    Doug: You monitor my computer? So he's (meaning me) just sitting here all day watching my screen?
    Terry: No, he's not watching your screen. Well, I can't see his monitors so I can't really say for sure, but I'm pretty sure he's not.
    Me: I have way more better things to do than just sit and watch your screen. That would be incredibly boring.
    Doug: Well, seeing my screen seems to be a security risk.
    Terry: We're the network admins. We prevent security risks.
    Me: I don't even think the program for us to be able to see your screen is installed on your computer.
    Doug: Then how did you copy that file to my desktop?
    Me: He just opened the folder on the server that contains your desktop icons and placed it in there.
    Doug: Oh, that's all you did? Okay. (walks away)
    Me: Geez, he's so paranoid.
    Terry: I know. Maybe we should monitor his computer. Sounds like he has something to hide.
    I'm on the ESTJ's side, here. If something's going wrong, someone has to report it, right? The ESTJ is just trying to be a good citizen and a good employee. Frankly, if the boss doesn't listen to the employees when they have complaints, but instead says "I have my opinions and you have yours", that's dictatorial and undemocratic and just not good boss behavior.
    No, someone doesn't have to report it. I hear people complain about Doug all the time, but I never report it. That would be tattling and trying to look good to the boss for something that doesn't pertain to me. Him doing a bad job doesn't affect my job. It doesn't cause me to have more or less work. It's completely irrelevant to my responsibilities. I do feel good when I hear people complain about others, though, because I look good in comparison without having to do anything.

    Regarding the boss's behavior, here is an email exchange between Doug, the HR director, and my boss:

    I sent the following to Terry, Doug, and Ed: "Well now I have the stomach flu and fever as well. Hopefully I'll be feeling better by tomorrow."
    Doug forwarded that to the HR director. She forwarded that to Ed, saying: "Is Doug Jason’s manager? He seems very involved in making sure that I’m aware of what Jason is doing?"
    Ed replied back: "No, I am however, he spares no effort in letting me know of the shortcomings of the other members of his team."

    I think Ed knows that Doug is one to tell on others and act like a boss, but Ed already knows me and my job performance and is satisfied with what he has seen.

    A common Ti vs. Te communication issue. His accusing you of consciously withholding information from you is stupid and paranoid, but the rest is pretty predictable. You, as a Ti dom, were coming from a position where you weren't sure how to give an accurate picture of the situation without explaining in either perfect or near-perfect detail, because all information is potentially relevant. But he, as a Te dom, was expecting you to give him a direct and straightforward answer -- like in Journalism class, where one of the first things you learn is to give the most important information of the story in your first paragraph, and then continue in reverse order of importance. That's Te.
    So you believe I'm Ti dom, not Ne dom and Ti aux? I wanted to give a direct answer. I wanted to give the short answer. However, possible short answers could be "yes", "no", "for now", or "I think so".

    If "yes", he would go and call them, find out it isn't fixed, and come back and get all mad because I lied to him.
    If "no", he would get all mad because I'm lazy and haven't done it yet. Then tell me to call them right now while he stands there.
    If "for now", he would get frustrated because I'm giving him a vague answer that doesn't really answer his question and he'd argue with me about what "for now" means.
    If "I think so", he'd get all mad because I left them without knowing if it was fixed or not, and that's lazy and irresponsible.

    The correct short answer, I feel, is "It's none of your business. I'm handling it." But I don't anticipate that going over well at all, and I'm not normally confrontational, so I think and think and think of what possible, short, direct answer I can give that will give him an accurate answer, all the while resenting the fact that I feel like I have to give him ANY answer. He shouldn't even be questioning me about it. He relayed the information. His involvement in the situation was officially over when he did so. It falls under my responsibilities, not his. If I don't come through, it looks bad on me. He told the person he told me. That person should now have all expectations for me and none for him. Sure, he can be curious as to what I ended up having to do to fix it, but that's it. I never question him about anything he's working on. I wouldn't feel that to be right. I would be insulting him. Plus I'm not his boss, just like he's not mine. I always feel negative about myself after he does that because I wish I could just be strong and assertive and stand my ground and not let him push me around and treat me that way and I hate how I can't. I honestly feel he creates a hostile working environment for me. And then I start intentionally giving him vague answers because it's none of his business and I start saying things just to piss him off and make him go away and he tells me that I have the worst attitude he's ever seen and it's going to get me in trouble one of these days.

    Because he was very, very angry. Reading that dialogue was interesting to me, because it confirms how I come across when I'm very angry, i.e. aggressively matter-of-fact. I can almost guarantee that everything about him seeming accusatory was from his anger at the situation -- not his anger at you. Te under stress can turn ExTJs from decent people into armed military vehicles, storming through the city, mowing down everything in their path. The task MUST GET DONE, the thing MUST GET FIXED, and it's too frustrating and all-consuming to give the ExTJ enough energy to maintain their ever-present facade of politeness. And with most ESTJs (not me as much, because I've started catching myself when I think this way), if something goes horribly wrong, it is absolutely not their fault. Obviously the ESTJ is doing everything in their power to fix it, and obviously they are completely in the right, and the world is against them. I remember when I was a kid, whenever I would lose something, my first thought was always that someone stole it. Same kind of thought process.
    Yes, he was under stress. He had his motorcycle being worked on yesterday and asked me to give him a ride to the mechanic so he could pick it up. I was almost certain he was going to say "I'll drive" even though it's the company car that I drive, and I was thinking and thinking of how I should respond. I knew that he'd say he didn't like how I drove, but what if I don't like how he drives? But he didn't, so I was relieved. On the way we talked and pretty much agreed on everything regarding hating drivers that don't use turn signals, hating how people tail-gate, etc. I then brought up the kiosk thing and started to say "sorry" about how that went down, and he stopped me and said not to worry about it, he was just under a lot of stress with one manager yelling on his right and another guy yelling on his left and blaming him for the computer not being up while he was talking to me on the phone.

    1) Try to be as direct with him as he is with you -- not regarding your feelings, but regarding work-related things. (For example, if he says "Why aren't you getting this done now?", just say "I have to do these two things first, but as soon as they're done, I'll deal with it, and I'll get back to you." Directness is the ESTJ's language; it may seem accusatory to you, but for the most part, we're fine with it when we're in your position. I have yet to see an ESTJ who had been made uncomfortable by being relentlessly questioned about something.)
    When I have said "I have to do these two things first, etc." he asked me about the two things, said that nothing is more important than the thing he brought to my attention because that person couldn't do their job, and I was unable to convince him that what I was working on really was more important. He finally just left and called Ed, just to have Ed call me and ask the situation and when I told him, he agreed that I was working on something more important and to just let Doug know I'll get to it when I can. All the while I'm thinking that this is a huge waste of time trying to convince people of things when I should be fixing the thing that's even more important than the other important thing. If he left me alone to do what I needed to do, I might have been done and been working on what he wanted by now.

    Also, oddly enough, he does get defensive when I ask him if he got something done. He says he'll get to it when he gets to it, but he has a lot of other things to do first. It seems like he doesn't like me checking up on him because I'm less responsible and half his age and he always gets things done and I'm insulting him by even questioning that he'll get it done. He is always in "proving himself" mode. I think he's worried about his job because he almost got let go in our last layoff. He's always trying to show how useful he is. My co-worker, Terry, says he's like Thomas the Train, always trying to be a useful engine. He often complains that I just sit there all day doing nothing while he busts his butt.

    2) Do as best you can about leaving behind any resentment you have towards his control-freakish behavior, and his acting like your boss. I doubt that there's any way that behavior can be changed, except by gradually gaining his trust, and even then it will never entirely go away.
    I guess knowing that it's just how he operates and he isn't out to make my life miserable helps.

    4) Apologize for pranking him, and swear to him that you will never do it again. You don't need to take him aside to do this; maybe the next time he accuses you of doing something to his computer, you can fit it in?
    I've already apologized. I did so when it first happened. And I did say I'd never do it again. I've told him that almost every time he accused me of something. Seems to fall on deaf ears.
    "I see you're drinking 1%. Is that because you think you're FAT? 'Cause you're not. You could be drinking whole milk if you wanted to."

    Music listening habits

  4. #1494
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w4
    Posts
    2,158

    Default

    A lot of you ESTJ's say that you respect people who stand up for themselves and who are not doormats. When I stand up to the xxTJ's (Te, Fi) that I know IRL, one of two things seems to happen:

    1. It turns into an argument/pissing match.
    2. Sometimes I walk away feeling like I may have been "too" straightforward and triggered some Fi sadness.

    If you're very blunt and even critical with someone (Te), what do you expect their response to be to you? It's logical that they would most likely "punch back", right? So, if you come at someone with cold, hard Te, how could that person ideally respond to you? If we cower and walk away, then we're a doormat. If we stand firm and "punch back", then we're argumentative. What's the happy medium?
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  5. #1495
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    6w5 sp/sx
    Posts
    3,939

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I actually relate to his frustration and distrust; I would react similarly, though not as extremely. I freaking HATE being pranked, and if other ESTJs are like me, then they would too, because ESTJs hate being humiliated, they hate being made fun of, they hate losing their dignity -- especially in an obvious way, like that, in front of other people whose respect they want to earn. Even the nice kind of pranking, like being surprised for your birthday, can be frustrating, because it requires people lying to you and tricking you beforehand. It can be hard to let go of the fact that your birthday was ignored and disrespected, even if it only appeared that way.
    This makes sense, but I wonder if ESTJs may apply a bit of a double standard here? From the relatively small amount of observation I've done, it seems to me that some ESTJs find what I might (rather condescendingly) call "stupid humour" (sorry, but that's how I feel!!) funny...at least if they're making the joke and someone else is on the receiving end.

    A couple of examples which I'm pretty sure involved ESTJs (two different ones):

    -My friend and I went on holiday and were waiting for our ESTJ friend and his friend to join us the next day. We were up late waiting for them to show up at the hotel or text us, and no word came. My friend texted the ESTJ, no word. Finally she calls him (she waited quite a while because we were in a foreign country and roaming cellphone calls were expensive). He goes "I couldn't call you! We've been arrested at customs..." She freaks out, and he starts laughing...it was a joke, but not very funny to either of us. He didn't get why she was still kind of mad at him the next day. An apology for alarming us, by not letting us know they were on the way and then making a dumb joke, would have been welcome, but he just thought she was being over-sensitive and we were being too serious.

    -My friend whose first language is Spanish, but speaks English very well, is talking with a few of us (including an ESTJ friend) about how some people have a hard time understanding any foreign accent and this causes her problems sometimes and she feels insecure about not being comprehensible. ESTJ guy goes "Sorry, I didn't catch that?" She repeats herself. He goes "Sorry, what? I didn't understand..." and does this a couple more times although he plainly did understand. Ha ha. He obviously thought it was hilarious, the rest of us were less impressed.

    Would you say this is non-ESTJ-like behaviour or it kind of is? I'm almost certain the first example involved an ESTJ, not quite as sure of the second but I think he probably was one.

    To me it's insecure behaviour in any case, regardless of type...when you expect others to find your pranks and silly jokes amusing, but get annoyed and defensive when the tables are turned. I certainly hate pranks as I find them embarrassing and a waste of time - I'd only be amused if it was very lightly done and very briefly done. Years ago friends of mine (a definite ESFJ and a probably ESTP) spent the WHOLE DAY winding up a mutual friend (probably ISFP) about how our flight for the holiday we were all going on had been cancelled...they thought it was hilarious, he was seriously unamused when he found out, especially as he'd been trying to figure out alternative travel arrangements...! I was pretty unamused too...

    Hm, now I'm starting to wonder if it's more of an extrovert-introvert split...


    EDIT: Here's another way to look at it. If you feel my examples are uncharacteristic of ESTJ behaviour, what kind of humour do you think does characterize ESTJs? They are supposed to have a good sense of humour, from the descriptions I've read...
    Female
    INFJ
    Enneagram 6w5 sp/sx


    I DOORSLAMMING

  6. #1496
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    937 so/sx
    Posts
    6,226

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Idec Sdawkminn View Post
    I've already apologized. I did so when it first happened. And I did say I'd never do it again. I've told him that almost every time he accused me of something. Seems to fall on deaf ears.
    Realize that as a network / system administrator you are in a position of trust. I know you only intended it to be a funny joke, but to many people, not just an ESTJ but perhaps especially so, it would seem like you betrayed that trust. You will be under suspicion for a while now. I think the assurance of never doing it again is a useful one, because you can always fall back on that. "I told you I wouldn't do anything like that again, and I haven't, let's see what the real problem is" along with a confident smile will go a long way to rebuilding that trust.

    As far as copying the file remotely, most people don't get this at all. Saying it's "magic" only makes people paranoid. I have found it a better option to send a link to the folders so they feel like they are in control of the whole process.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  7. #1497
    Senior Member Idec Sdawkminn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    MBTI
    EPIC
    Posts
    145

    Default

    Thanks. I actually spoke with an MBTI master practitioner for about an hour and she determined pretty confidently that I'm not an INTP or ENTP, but an ISFP. I wonder if this makes any difference, as I wouldn't be using Ti with his Te, but rather would be using Te as well, only as a fourth function while he was using it as dominant.
    "I see you're drinking 1%. Is that because you think you're FAT? 'Cause you're not. You could be drinking whole milk if you wanted to."

    Music listening habits

  8. #1498
    don't fence me in sui generis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    MBTI
    esTJ
    Enneagram
    875 sx/sp
    Socionics
    ESTx
    Posts
    746

    Default

    I'm sorry that I only reply to certain posts in this thread. Sometimes I don't know what to say. EJCC is better at explaining herself than I am and I think she is more ESTJ than I am.

    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post

    Would you say this is non-ESTJ-like behaviour or it kind of is? I'm almost certain the first example involved an ESTJ, not quite as sure of the second but I think he probably was one.

    To me it's insecure behaviour in any case, regardless of type...when you expect others to find your pranks and silly jokes amusing, but get annoyed and defensive when the tables are turned.
    [...]


    EDIT: Here's another way to look at it. If you feel my examples are uncharacteristic of ESTJ behaviour, what kind of humour do you think does characterize ESTJs? They are supposed to have a good sense of humour, from the descriptions I've read...

    Oooh, this is interesting.

    I have no idea whether the people you mentioned are ESTJs, but I know I wouldn't do either of those things, and that I wouldn't find them funny if I watched them. Kind of lame, actually.

    When I read your post I thought back to when we discussed humor on here last year. I think that I'm waaay more likely to make plays on words than anything.
    Murphy Brown: What is it with us? Why can't we take the easy road once in awhile?
    Avery Brown: Because it's boring and dishonest and uncomfortable, like wearing a pair of shoes all day that pinch your feet.

    approx 55% ES, 90% TJ

  9. #1499
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    6w5 sp/sx
    Posts
    3,939

    Default

    Had a look at the previous comments on humour, thanks. The above examples could have more to do with immaturity than type. The first guy I knew better, and I'm pretty sure he's ESTJ - he's also into satiric sort of humour, but can also be quite immature... The other guy was just someone I spent a few hours with, and I'm not that good at typing a lot of people, but he seemed ESTJ-ish. (And kind of immature!!)

    I think sense of humour is quite individual and not as type-related as some other things. I've got a pretty wide variety myself in terms of what I like, but blatant making fun of others is probably my least favourite. To me, that's definitely immature humour.
    Female
    INFJ
    Enneagram 6w5 sp/sx


    I DOORSLAMMING

  10. #1500
    lords of summer EJCC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    173 so/sx
    Posts
    18,209

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Idec Sdawkminn View Post
    Okay, so I can sort of agree with you guys about the prank as well. I wouldn't like it, either. But I didn't do it where several people would witness it. He has his own office, so I just intended for him to hear it, try to figure it out, and see what transpired. It was more of a "I wonder if he'll be able to figure it out and how long it will take" type of thing. Turns out he's really private about his computer (his company-owned computer). When he asked my co-worker to give him a file, he simply copied it remotely to his desktop. My co-worker and I do that all the time to each other. "Hey, it should be on your desktop." "Thanks." Well, Doug comes in immediately and demands to know how he did it.
    Regarding this, I agree with PeaceBaby.
    No, someone doesn't have to report it. I hear people complain about Doug all the time, but I never report it. That would be tattling and trying to look good to the boss for something that doesn't pertain to me. Him doing a bad job doesn't affect my job. It doesn't cause me to have more or less work. It's completely irrelevant to my responsibilities. I do feel good when I hear people complain about others, though, because I look good in comparison without having to do anything.
    This seems very cynical and self-involved to me. Him reporting everything, in comparison, is selfless and other-focused -- even if it is annoying to everyone else. He sees someone else having trouble, and he wants to help. Is wanting to help really so wrong? What makes you think that he's only doing it to look good for someone else?

    Don't think I'm being too idealistic, because absolutely nothing you've said about this ESTJ has given me any cause to think that he's a suck-up or a fake. And if he's not a suck-up, then he's honestly trying to do the right thing. And frankly, I'd rather work in a place where everyone wants to help each other, than a place where everyone looks out for themselves and refuses to help the others out for fear of looking like they're "tattling".

    I find it interesting that you're an ISFP and you think this way, because Te is all about seeing problems and wanting to step in and fix them. Maybe your Te just manifests itself differently.

    I wanted to give a direct answer. I wanted to give the short answer. However, possible short answers could be "yes", "no", "for now", or "I think so".

    If "yes", he would go and call them, find out it isn't fixed, and come back and get all mad because I lied to him.
    If "no", he would get all mad because I'm lazy and haven't done it yet. Then tell me to call them right now while he stands there.
    If "for now", he would get frustrated because I'm giving him a vague answer that doesn't really answer his question and he'd argue with me about what "for now" means.
    If "I think so", he'd get all mad because I left them without knowing if it was fixed or not, and that's lazy and irresponsible.
    I think almost all of this is due to trust issues. And that will probably be resolved with time.
    I always feel negative about myself after he does that because I wish I could just be strong and assertive and stand my ground and not let him push me around and treat me that way and I hate how I can't. I honestly feel he creates a hostile working environment for me. And then I start intentionally giving him vague answers because it's none of his business and I start saying things just to piss him off and make him go away and he tells me that I have the worst attitude he's ever seen and it's going to get me in trouble one of these days.
    Firstly, if you give intentionally vague answers just to piss him off, that's just going to make him trust you even less, which will make him even more annoying to you and will therefore be counterproductive. And if that is what you do, then he's justified in telling you that you have a bad attitude.

    Secondly, it's important to remember that he isn't bullying you, and he isn't "pushing you around". That would imply bad intentions, and his intentions are pure. Where he's coming from is: "I have a co-worker who obviously doesn't like me, and who has played dirty, mean and scary pranks on me, and who talks badly about me behind my back. I hate that this is our work dynamic, but I still want things to get done correctly, so I might as well try to be as helpful as possible." The Te worldview, like I said before, is all about problem-solving. That's just how they operate. You will never meet an ESTJ who thinks the way you do about the workplace, i.e. that no one should get involved in anyone else's business unless they are explicitly told to do so in their job description.
    Yes, he was under stress. He had his motorcycle being worked on yesterday and asked me to give him a ride to the mechanic so he could pick it up. I was almost certain he was going to say "I'll drive" even though it's the company car that I drive, and I was thinking and thinking of how I should respond. I knew that he'd say he didn't like how I drove, but what if I don't like how he drives? But he didn't, so I was relieved. On the way we talked and pretty much agreed on everything regarding hating drivers that don't use turn signals, hating how people tail-gate, etc. I then brought up the kiosk thing and started to say "sorry" about how that went down, and he stopped me and said not to worry about it, he was just under a lot of stress with one manager yelling on his right and another guy yelling on his left and blaming him for the computer not being up while he was talking to me on the phone.
    Well there you go! Looks like you've seen him in a good mood, then. Once you start earning his trust back, hopefully he'll be like that with you more often. That's how ESTJs are supposed to act.

    Also, oddly enough, he does get defensive when I ask him if he got something done. He says he'll get to it when he gets to it, but he has a lot of other things to do first. It seems like he doesn't like me checking up on him because I'm less responsible and half his age and he always gets things done and I'm insulting him by even questioning that he'll get it done. He is always in "proving himself" mode. I think he's worried about his job because he almost got let go in our last layoff. He's always trying to show how useful he is. My co-worker, Terry, says he's like Thomas the Train, always trying to be a useful engine. He often complains that I just sit there all day doing nothing while he busts his butt.
    I think you've been projecting a little. Although some of it may be because he's worried about his job, most of it is just that ESTJs hate being humbled by people who they consider to be less talented or less capable than them. Obviously, in his case, age is another factor, though that isn't the case for all ESTJs. Also, that comment about you being less responsible is proof of what I was saying earlier, i.e. that he doesn't trust you to get things done.
    I guess knowing that it's just how he operates and he isn't out to make my life miserable helps.
    Exactly. Your co-worker Terry has it right -- the ESTJ is just trying to help, and helping often means getting involved, and checking up on people to see how they're doing.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    A lot of you ESTJ's say that you respect people who stand up for themselves and who are not doormats. When I stand up to the xxTJ's (Te, Fi) that I know IRL, one of two things seems to happen:

    1. It turns into an argument/pissing match.
    2. Sometimes I walk away feeling like I may have been "too" straightforward and triggered some Fi sadness.

    If you're very blunt and even critical with someone (Te), what do you expect their response to be to you? It's logical that they would most likely "punch back", right? So, if you come at someone with cold, hard Te, how could that person ideally respond to you? If we cower and walk away, then we're a doormat. If we stand firm and "punch back", then we're argumentative. What's the happy medium?
    We still want you to be argumentative. Because we want everyone to be on the same page. If we convince you, that's great, and we'll agree, and if you convince us, we'll be extremely embarrassed and cranky for maybe ten minutes... but then all will be forgiven, and we'll agree.

    Also, I shouldn't even be using the word "arguing"; you said it best when you called it "cold, hard Te". They're facts without emotion. Since you're INTP, you're in a position to reply perfectly, with accurate Ti. For example:

    ESTJ: Well obviously this is the case because X=Y.
    INTP: Actually, no. I read an article this morning that said that X=Z and Z=/=Y. Clear as day.
    ESTJ: No way. Where did you read that?
    INTP: ZXY Magazine.
    ESTJ (sulking): ... Huh. Okay.
    INTP: Seriously, I'll pull it up on my smartphone. Here it is.
    ESTJ (pissed off): ... Sure enough. There it is. (sulks away)

    (10 minutes later, separate conversation)
    ESTJ: So I thought that X=Y before, but it turns out there was this article in ZXY magazine before that totally refuted that...
    Other people: Hmm, interesting!

    So, in other words... As embarrassing as it is for the ESTJ initially, they'd rather gain the right opinion, than beat you in an argument with the wrong opinion. We want people to stick up for their arguments because we want wrong opinions to be eliminated.
    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    This makes sense, but I wonder if ESTJs may apply a bit of a double standard here? From the relatively small amount of observation I've done, it seems to me that some ESTJs find what I might (rather condescendingly) call "stupid humour" (sorry, but that's how I feel!!) funny...at least if they're making the joke and someone else is on the receiving end.
    ...
    To me it's insecure behaviour in any case, regardless of type...when you expect others to find your pranks and silly jokes amusing, but get annoyed and defensive when the tables are turned. I certainly hate pranks as I find them embarrassing and a waste of time - I'd only be amused if it was very lightly done and very briefly done. Years ago friends of mine (a definite ESFJ and a probably ESTP) spent the WHOLE DAY winding up a mutual friend (probably ISFP) about how our flight for the holiday we were all going on had been cancelled...they thought it was hilarious, he was seriously unamused when he found out, especially as he'd been trying to figure out alternative travel arrangements...! I was pretty unamused too...
    I agree with you about maturity. I was reading a really amazing article about this particular theory of humor, called the Benign Violation theory, that really blows my mind because I can't think of an exception. The idea is: something is funny if something/one (anything/one!) is violated -- as long as you don't see it as harmful in any way. So, maturity would come in because immature people generally aren't as empathetic, so they wouldn't see that what they were doing wasn't "benign" and that it was actually hurtful.

    Also, it's a double standard for a lot of people. Really, anyone who watches "America's Funniest Home Videos", or silly prank/crotch-kicking videos on YouTube. That video may be funny, but if YOU were the one being kicked in the balls, it wouldn't be funny at all.

    In short: not type-related. But definitely hypocritical!

    Quote Originally Posted by sui generis View Post
    I'm sorry that I only reply to certain posts in this thread. Sometimes I don't know what to say. EJCC is better at explaining herself than I am and I think she is more ESTJ than I am.
    I dunno -- I've had a lot of practice. And I maintain that you're more ESTJ than you think. We relate to most of each other's type-related cognitive processes, I think.
    I have no idea whether the people you mentioned are ESTJs, but I know I wouldn't do either of those things, and that I wouldn't find them funny if I watched them. Kind of lame, actually.
    Agreed. I read those anecdotes and both could be called, as they say in the Old Country... "Kind Of A Dick Move".
    When I read your post I thought back to when we discussed humor on here last year. I think that I'm waaay more likely to make plays on words than anything.
    Nice work! Thanks for finding that. I had totally forgotten.
    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"

    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    lawful good (D&D) / ravenclaw + wampus (HP) / boros legion (M:TG)
    conscientious > sensitive > serious (oldham)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

Similar Threads

  1. [INTJ] Ask an INTJ
    By logan235711 in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 870
    Last Post: 05-22-2015, 05:04 AM
  2. [ISFJ] How to ask an ISFJ out?
    By Grungemouse in forum The SJ Guardhouse (ESFJ, ISFJ, ESTJ, ISTJ)
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 10-08-2009, 07:04 PM
  3. [MBTItm] How do you spot an ESTJ female?
    By INTJMom in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 38
    Last Post: 12-23-2008, 01:27 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts