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Thread: Ask an ESTJ!

  1. #1461
    came back haunted Array EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post
    I knew you were all softies inside

    Yeah, yeah...
    Quote Originally Posted by Nørrsken impersonating EJCC
    It's strange. I keep banning morons, but they keep signing up? What is this?
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  2. #1462
    Senior Member Array Lex Talionis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamske View Post
    Group projects were okay, as long as I did all the work on my own.

    The ironic thing is that, now I'm a teacher, I can't teach like I would prefer being taught! I have to switch working forms often, I have to "entertain" rather than teach...
    I find it odd that an extrovert, particularly an ESTJ, who belongs to a highly social type, would find group participation undesirable. The same applies to a lesser extent to an ENTP. As an extremely introverted INTJ, I find group projects greatly offputting, but I do not understand why this would be so for extroverts of the simplistic variety. Perhaps in a specific sense such as preferring the guaranteed success of their own individual efforts over the dispersed and uncertain actions of a group within a relatively undemanding environment such as the contemporary educational system, but I do not understand this on a general basis.
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  3. #1463
    don't fence me in Array sui generis's Avatar
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    We're individuals with some preferences that contradict what our types "should" like. Personality isn't like math or whatever; people are more complicated than that.

    Like I said, I hate group projects because I always get stuck with people who are stupid and/or lazy, but I also hate it because I want to run the show and that's generally not acceptable.
    Last edited by sui generis; 07-01-2011 at 02:11 AM. Reason: trying not to sound bitchy
    Murphy Brown: What is it with us? Why can't we take the easy road once in awhile?
    Avery Brown: Because it's boring and dishonest and uncomfortable, like wearing a pair of shoes all day that pinch your feet.

    approx 55% ES, 90% TJ

  4. #1464
    Writing... Array Tamske's Avatar
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    I don't find it that weird, ESTJs hating group project. If our groups came together for projects, people were all making fun and not working at all. I wanted a good grade. They knew I wanted a good grade. I came to the meetings with a lot of ideas already.
    "So you've done everything already! Let's have fun!" was the reaction. Yes, in an ENTP sense, everything was "done" - the ideas were there. They "only" needed to be carried out. Which is, in my opinion, most and the most boring of the work. I wanted to get that stupid work out of the way (yeah, not very ENTP like, I know). I didn't want to have "fun" - especially not the "fun" my classmates liked, like listening to music that hurt my ears. I suspect they were half deaf already.
    ESTJs? It's in their nature to want the stupid work out of the way first. They would be annoyed with groups chitchatting and calling them a spoilsport if they mention that there is work to be done.
    They like group projects only if they can treat the other people as coworkers instead of friends during the project.

    Now that I think about it, maybe that's the main problem with group projects at school. People who are friends (or rivals, which is much worse) suddenly need to act like coworkers. And while friends talk about the latest fashion or sport event, the work is still to be done - and the ESTJs among them twiddle their thumbs, not daring to call out on their friends, not wanting to act like the nagging workaholic *again*... and they are *still* chatting about fashion...
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  5. #1465
    Senior Member Array Lex Talionis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamske View Post
    I don't find it that weird, ESTJs hating group project. If our groups came together for projects, people were all making fun and not working at all. I wanted a good grade. They knew I wanted a good grade. I came to the meetings with a lot of ideas already.
    "So you've done everything already! Let's have fun!" was the reaction. Yes, in an ENTP sense, everything was "done" - the ideas were there. They "only" needed to be carried out. Which is, in my opinion, most and the most boring of the work. I wanted to get that stupid work out of the way (yeah, not very ENTP like, I know). I didn't want to have "fun" - especially not the "fun" my classmates liked, like listening to music that hurt my ears. I suspect they were half deaf already.
    ESTJs? It's in their nature to want the stupid work out of the way first. They would be annoyed with groups chitchatting and calling them a spoilsport if they mention that there is work to be done.
    They like group projects only if they can treat the other people as coworkers instead of friends during the project.

    Now that I think about it, maybe that's the main problem with group projects at school. People who are friends (or rivals, which is much worse) suddenly need to act like coworkers. And while friends talk about the latest fashion or sport event, the work is still to be done - and the ESTJs among them twiddle their thumbs, not daring to call out on their friends, not wanting to act like the nagging workaholic *again*... and they are *still* chatting about fashion...
    All right, then. You are basically affirming my initial hypothesis: that the preference is one of efficiency considerations. I was of the impression that you were referring to a general disinclination toward group related activities.
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  6. #1466
    came back haunted Array EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamske View Post
    ESTJs? It's in their nature to want the stupid work out of the way first. They would be annoyed with groups chitchatting and calling them a spoilsport if they mention that there is work to be done.
    Very true.
    They like group projects only if they can treat the other people as coworkers instead of friends during the project.
    I would argue that an exception would be if you could get the work done and be friendly at the same time. It's like being in a study group, you know? Failed study groups are the ones where you're too friendly/easily distracted to get things done. But if your friends are just as motivated as you, then I'd say working with your friends in a group is much better than working alone -- not just because of efficiency, but because of morale-boosting, and because, speaking as an extrovert, sometimes I can burn myself out by working alone in silence for too long. (which is why I do most of my studying in public areas; the background noise is comforting.)
    (or rivals, which is much worse)
    Actually, it's much easier for me to work with rivals than friends, because I can show ALL of my cold-hearted Te and not give a crap whether they judge me for it. Also, because they aren't going to try to distract me with funny stories, because they want to keep their talk with me to a bare minimum. It may not be a pleasant situation, but it's almost always very efficient (from my experience), because my enemies are motivated too, and don't want to sabotage their own grades to get back at me for anything.

    I dunno. Depends on the person, I guess.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lex Talionis View Post
    All right, then. You are basically affirming my initial hypothesis: that the preference is one of efficiency considerations. I was of the impression that you were referring to a general disinclination toward group related activities.
    Right. There's no black and white regarding that; it all depends on something or another. And it especially depends on efficiency.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nørrsken impersonating EJCC
    It's strange. I keep banning morons, but they keep signing up? What is this?
    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
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    want to ask me something? go for it!

  7. #1467
    Writing... Array Tamske's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I would argue that an exception would be if you could get the work done and be friendly at the same time.
    That was more or less what I meant, only you said it better . I was thinking about my husband and his colleagues at work. I've met them a few times and they are really good friends. But they are coworkers in the first place, and friends as an added bonus. He really likes the group work there, while he told me more than once about how he hated it at high school.
    I guess that, for an ESTJ, it's easier to be friends with your coworkers than to co-work with your friends...
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  8. #1468
    came back haunted Array EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamske View Post
    I guess that, for an ESTJ, it's easier to be friends with your coworkers than to co-work with your friends...
    Definitely. Not sure if the reasoning would be the same for all ESTJs. In my case, it's easier because I act differently at work than outside of work; In group work situations, I can be a lot more curt and bossy and cold and a lot less friendly, so I would worry that if my friends saw me in that mode, it would surprise and annoy them and maybe they wouldn't think of me the same way. (I don't like bossing my friends around; it seems rude, somehow.) But if my co-workers befriended me, that would mean that they befriended me despite that, which would mean that my active Te wasn't off-putting to them (which is always a good thing! ).
    Quote Originally Posted by Nørrsken impersonating EJCC
    It's strange. I keep banning morons, but they keep signing up? What is this?
    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
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    lawful good (D&D) / ravenclaw + wampus (HP) / boros legion (M:TG)
    conscientious > sensitive > serious (oldham)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

  9. #1469
    Finis Array Redbone's Avatar
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    Dear ESTJs,

    Do you ever look back on an extremely bad situation and tell yourself, "Aw...it wasn't that bad...I just overreacted at the time."

    Also, what do you think when someone close to you says that s/he will always be there for you (in a straightforward manner...not with gush)?
    Last edited by Redbone; 07-03-2011 at 12:00 AM. Reason: Crappy ass grammar....

  10. #1470
    came back haunted Array EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redbone View Post
    Do you ever look back on an extremely bad situation and tell yourself, "Aw...it wasn't that bad...I just overreacted at the time."
    When it's that time of the month. JK!

    Seriously, though? I don't really think so. I sometimes think "If I knew then what I know now, then I wouldn't have thought it was a very big deal", but I understand that, at the time, it was a reasonable reaction. Naive, but reasonable.

    What inspired that question? I ask because it's a very interesting one.
    Also, what do you think when someone close to you says that you'll always be there for them (in a straightforward manner...not with gush)?
    Hm... I think it sort of depends. If it's said to me when I'm in a vulnerable situation, then it's incredibly comforting and nice. We care so much about being the grounded ones in the relationship, that it's nice to be reminded that we have someone to lean on, too. But if it's said out of nowhere, then it might surprise or bewilder me more than anything else.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nørrsken impersonating EJCC
    It's strange. I keep banning morons, but they keep signing up? What is this?
    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    lawful good (D&D) / ravenclaw + wampus (HP) / boros legion (M:TG)
    conscientious > sensitive > serious (oldham)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

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