User Tag List

First 4696136144145146147148156196246 Last

Results 1,451 to 1,460 of 2602

Thread: Ask an ESTJ!

  1. #1451
    lords of summer EJCC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    173 so/sx
    Posts
    18,147

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tamske View Post
    Do you want no advice, only consoling? Tell them before you begin: "I need to rant to someone. Please just listen, I don't want advice right now."
    This is an excellent idea -- not just with ESTJs. My family dynamic at home actually requires this, because both me and my dad (INTP) are always trying to advise my mom (INFJ) when all she wants to do is vent. It's really because my dad and I don't vent very much, on a relative scale; we only talk about vent-worthy things when
    1. people ask about them, or
    2. we need advice.
    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"

    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    lawful good (D&D) / ravenclaw + wampus (HP) / boros legion (M:TG)
    conscientious > sensitive > serious (oldham)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

  2. #1452
    You have a choice! 21%'s Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    2,621

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    When it comes to emotional, personal problems, ESTJs tend to want to work things out on their own and only involve other people when all else has failed. If this ESTJ is like me, then he may have thought that it was entirely his problem and not his ENFJ's, i.e. that all that he needed was an attitude adjustment and then everything would be fine. So he put it off, tried to change his mindset, and it was completely in vain. Only then did he act.

    This is a freaking amazing post. It is all exactly right. Bringing that subject up, if you're a male ESTJ, would be opening up, and putting your emotional state at risk, leaving yourself vulnerable. When an ESTJ is in that state, what's best is to talk it out. Like Tamske said here, when ESTJs don't know what to do, they really just want to find a rational solution, because uncertainty worries them and cold hard facts are soothing and reassuring. (Also, ESTJs are REALLY BAD at dealing with irrational/emotional people. Even when people are rational, ESTJs can sometimes walk all over people's feelings without realizing what they're doing, and that gets even worse when people are emotional about it.

    A possible thought process (addendum to Tamske's post):
    ESTJ (internally): I don't know how to fix this relationship. I've been trying so hard, and nothing has worked, and I just can't think of any other options. I guess I'll have to talk to ENFJ, but I'm scared about what will happen; will she yell at me? I can't predict what she's going to do. But I really need reassurance. I need to know that this can be solved. I need closure. So I guess I'll talk to her.
    ESTJ (externally): I feel like I have to make you happy all the time.
    ENFJ: But I'm happy! You don't have to worry about that!
    ESTJ (internally): But I feel obligated to make you happy! Crap, I was right all along; it is my problem. If she really doesn't need me to make her happy, then I shouldn't be think this way. I guess I'll keep soul-searching, like I've been doing.
    ESTJ: *shuts down*

    So if this is what happened, then he probably broke up with her all those other times with an "it's not you it's me" attitude. Of course, if he didn't think that deeply about it (which is possible; I get the feeling that I'm unusually introspective for an ESTJ), then this could have been what happened:

    ESTJ (internally): Damn, this is frustrating. I feel trapped by these obligations to my ENFJ. Maybe I can fix this if I talk to her about it... but I can't guarantee that she'll be rational about it. Ah well, we'll see how it goes.
    ESTJ: I feel like I have to make you happy all the time.
    ENFJ: But I'm happy! You don't have to worry about that!
    ESTJ (internally): Figures. She's not rational. If I elaborate, she'll get really upset with me and I won't know how to fix it; I'm so bad at rebuilding those bridges. I guess I should just avoid the topic.
    ESTJ: *shuts down*

    ... And then the resentment builds and builds until the ESTJ explodes and breaks up with the ENFJ right then and there.

    I dunno. There are so many possibilities! What does everyone else think? Feedback? Does this mesh well with your ESTJ experiences?
    Thanks for this! I think this is exactly how it is. It's also quite fascinating that I cannot really relate with this thought process at all, which perhaps illustrates why it's so hard for Te/Si and Fe/Ni to communicate! >_<

    So, a more specific question: During the ESTJ's down-time where he wants no contact and wants to figure things out by himself, would it help that he gets the following message:

    "I understand that you need time to figure things out, so I'm going to give you time. For me, relationships are about voicing out the issues and working through them. I didn't realize you were keeping quiet just to avoid emotional conflicts. I know I have a tendency to be emotional, but when that happens and if it makes communication difficult, I will appreciate you telling me so and we will try to 'tune in' to one another's language. At the moment I don't know if this is gong to work or not; I'm willing to work out the issues in a rational manner and discuss how we can make it better, but if you decide otherwise I will respect your wishes. Please understand, though, that I need some sort of solution. If you are willing to work things out in the future but just need some time alone I'll understand, and I'll wait. But if you decide it is over, please tell me directly and soon, so I can move on and heal."

    That's my Fe's best attempt at communicating in a 'rational' manner. How will this sort of message be received? Is this even close to being rational about the whole thing? Can't believe how clueless I am about Te communication >_<


    Thanks!
    4w5 sp/sx EII

  3. #1453
    Writing... Tamske's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    1,764

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    EDIT: Tamske pretty much summed it up already! Man, you don't even need me on this thread anymore. Tamske's got it covered!
    ... Did I just beat an ESTJ in providing on-topic information? Yay!
    Really, I'm very happy and thankful for your comments, even if you just say "that's right" - it reassures me that I can take care of my ESTJ

    About those "rant warnings"... I confess they don't work that well in practice. When I need to rant, I'm usually emotionally riled up enough to forget about the warning... Also, my emotional outbursts tend to surprise even myself.
    Got questions? Ask an ENTP!
    I'm female. I just can't draw women

  4. #1454
    lords of summer EJCC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    173 so/sx
    Posts
    18,147

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post
    Thanks for this! I think this is exactly how it is. It's also quite fascinating that I cannot really relate with this thought process at all, which perhaps illustrates why it's so hard for Te/Si and Fe/Ni to communicate! >_<
    Indeed! I was just having a conversation with my ENFJ friend (appropriately enough!), and we were talking about what we would do if we had a big, friendship-threatening fight. He told me that what would work best for him would be if I said something along the lines of "I know I've made mistakes, but I really value our friendship, and it's so important to me that we stay friends..." And I replied by telling him thanks for letting me know that, because saying something like that would be very, very difficult and unnatural for me. My natural response would be to say something like "I'm so sorry, I feel terrible about this -- what happened was -- (insert rationale here) -- and I didn't realize it would offend you. I didn't mean you any harm. Whatever I can do to fix this, I will." But my ENFJ friend told me that if I said that to him, he would take it as "Here are the reasons why I was in the right, and here are the reasons why your feelings are invalid."

    Man... I'm great at communicating with him in every other sense, but that made me really NOT look forward to fighting with him. I'm sure it will happen at some point (because it always does, with pretty much every friendship), and it's gonna be tricky.

    "I understand that you need time to figure things out, so I'm going to give you time. For me, relationships are about voicing out the issues and working through them. I didn't realize you were keeping quiet just to avoid emotional conflicts. I know I have a tendency to be emotional, but when that happens and if it makes communication difficult, I will appreciate you telling me so and we will try to 'tune in' to one another's language. At the moment I don't know if this is gong to work or not; I'm willing to work out the issues in a rational manner and discuss how we can make it better, but if you decide otherwise I will respect your wishes. Please understand, though, that I need some sort of solution. If you are willing to work things out in the future but just need some time alone I'll understand, and I'll wait. But if you decide it is over, please tell me directly and soon, so I can move on and heal."
    All of this sounds good, but the bolded might be worth leaving out. The first bolded could come across, to the ESTJ, as simplifying their complicated feelings, and the second bolded might be overkill. Besides that, you've got it!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tamske View Post
    ... Did I just beat an ESTJ in providing on-topic information? Yay!
    Really, I'm very happy and thankful for your comments, even if you just say "that's right" - it reassures me that I can take care of my ESTJ
    !

    You are doing it right!
    About those "rant warnings"... I confess they don't work that well in practice. When I need to rant, I'm usually emotionally riled up enough to forget about the warning... Also, my emotional outbursts tend to surprise even myself.
    Aw, man. See, they work pretty much flawlessly for the other side. What a shame.
    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"

    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    lawful good (D&D) / ravenclaw + wampus (HP) / boros legion (M:TG)
    conscientious > sensitive > serious (oldham)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

  5. #1455
    You have a choice! 21%'s Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    2,621

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Indeed! I was just having a conversation with my ENFJ friend (appropriately enough!), and we were talking about what we would do if we had a big, friendship-threatening fight. He told me that what would work best for him would be if I said something along the lines of "I know I've made mistakes, but I really value our friendship, and it's so important to me that we stay friends..." And I replied by telling him thanks for letting me know that, because saying something like that would be very, very difficult and unnatural for me. My natural response would be to say something like "I'm so sorry, I feel terrible about this -- what happened was -- (insert rationale here) -- and I didn't realize it would offend you. I didn't mean you any harm. Whatever I can do to fix this, I will." But my ENFJ friend told me that if I said that to him, he would take it as "Here are the reasons why I was in the right, and here are the reasons why your feelings are invalid."

    Man... I'm great at communicating with him in every other sense, but that made me really NOT look forward to fighting with him. I'm sure it will happen at some point (because it always does, with pretty much every friendship), and it's gonna be tricky.
    Exactly! Feelers tend to interpret any type of reasoning as excuses (which sounds kinda bad, actually) Conflicts are emotional, and a lot of the time feelers get way too emotional to listen to their reasons. I do appreciate it when someone tries to 'reason out' an argument, though, because sometimes it can sometimes bring me down from my emotional high. Bonus points if the reasoning is surrounded by a lot of feeling-related words (especially on how you feel). But I can totally imagine it would be totally unnatural for thinkers to do something like this. My dad is a thinker and the only way we end conflicts is by joking our way out

    When me and my INFP bf make up after a fight, it's a soppy feeling fest:

    "I'm sorry I made you feel that way. It wasn't my intention."
    "No, I'm sorry I took it the wrong way. I feel bad for making a big deal out of it"
    "No, I'm sorry."
    "I'm sorry. Let's not fight anymore."
    "I agree. No more fighting."



    All of this sounds good, but the bolded might be worth leaving out. The first bolded could come across, to the ESTJ, as simplifying their complicated feelings, and the second bolded might be overkill. Besides that, you've got it!
    Thanks so much!
    4w5 sp/sx EII

  6. #1456
    Aquaria mrcockburn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    MBTI
    ¥¤
    Enneagram
    3w4 sp/so
    Posts
    1,907

    Default

    What do you think about disowning family?

    For example, my mother was so unrepentantly toxic, that I completely disowned her when I turned 18. I did it because I'm happier without her, and I don't agree that I should tolerate or even try to reason with her BS just because I'm one of her hatched eggs.

    Do you agree with the traditional stance that no matter what, family must put up with each other and can never COMPLETELY cut each other off. Honor thy mother and father etc etc.

    Or do you think that people are entitled to do what makes them happy (eliminate the person, the source of misery, out their lives).
    3w4-9w1-?w6 (nearly headless nick)
    sp/so
    Lawful Evil

    COCKBURN:

    http://sundrytimes.files.wordpress.c...tomic-bomb.jpg


  7. #1457
    lords of summer EJCC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    173 so/sx
    Posts
    18,147

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post
    Exactly! Feelers tend to interpret any type of reasoning as excuses (which sounds kinda bad, actually) Conflicts are emotional, and a lot of the time feelers get way too emotional to listen to their reasons. I do appreciate it when someone tries to 'reason out' an argument, though, because sometimes it can sometimes bring me down from my emotional high. Bonus points if the reasoning is surrounded by a lot of feeling-related words (especially on how you feel). But I can totally imagine it would be totally unnatural for thinkers to do something like this. My dad is a thinker and the only way we end conflicts is by joking our way out
    Yeah, I'm terrible at using feeling-related words to apologize to someone. For literally my entire childhood (K-8), I avoided in-person apologies like the plague, and would write long and detailed (and sometimes poetic) apology notes instead. There's a certain vulnerability that comes with that kind of talk, and with me (and probably with other ESTJs too), it takes a lot of trust to be able to handle that.
    When me and my INFP bf make up after a fight, it's a soppy feeling fest:

    "I'm sorry I made you feel that way. It wasn't my intention."
    "No, I'm sorry I took it the wrong way. I feel bad for making a big deal out of it"
    "No, I'm sorry."
    "I'm sorry. Let's not fight anymore."
    "I agree. No more fighting."
    Wow I had no idea those conversations happened in real life! I've seen them in romantic comedies (usually with best friends making up), but that's about it.
    Quote Originally Posted by mrcockburn View Post
    What do you think about disowning family?

    For example, my mother was so unrepentantly toxic, that I completely disowned her when I turned 18. I did it because I'm happier without her, and I don't agree that I should tolerate or even try to reason with her BS just because I'm one of her hatched eggs.

    Do you agree with the traditional stance that no matter what, family must put up with each other and can never COMPLETELY cut each other off. Honor thy mother and father etc etc.

    Or do you think that people are entitled to do what makes them happy (eliminate the person, the source of misery, out their lives).
    I think that might be a generational thing. I think ESTJs (and other types) who are older than me might believe in sticking with your family no matter what, but I am not of that generation, so I feel like if there's no good reason for you to stick with your family, and if your family is really that horrible, then I would respect your decision to disown them.

    However, it would take some very extreme circumstances for me, personally, to disown a family member. It would also take the approval of the family members that I like. I would argue with them if they disagreed, of course, but if they convinced me, then I'd go with it. Also, in some of the possible extreme circumstances that I can think of, it might be better to stage an intervention, than disown them. But that would only be in some cases.

    There are members of my family that I hold an extreme dislike for (and also members of my "church family", and some family friends), but I remain courteous with them because of cost-benefit analysis.
    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"

    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    lawful good (D&D) / ravenclaw + wampus (HP) / boros legion (M:TG)
    conscientious > sensitive > serious (oldham)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

  8. #1458
    don't fence me in sui generis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    MBTI
    esTJ
    Enneagram
    875 sx/sp
    Socionics
    ESTx
    Posts
    746

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mrcockburn View Post
    Do you agree with the traditional stance that no matter what, family must put up with each other and can never COMPLETELY cut each other off. Honor thy mother and father etc etc.

    Or do you think that people are entitled to do what makes them happy (eliminate the person, the source of misery, out their lives).
    "Entitled" isn't even a word I'd use. Like EJCC said, it's a cost-benefit analysis thing. I have a relative whom I have cut out of my life because she adds nothing to my life except crazy and guilt trips, and I don't need that shit. I've got enough of my own crazy, I don't need hers! There's no benefit to having her in my life, and I benefit greatly from not having her in my life. Then again, I'm not the most ~traditional~ of the ESTJs. Also, I'm adopted, so the whole "blood is thicker than water" thing doesn't compute with me, like, at all.
    Murphy Brown: What is it with us? Why can't we take the easy road once in awhile?
    Avery Brown: Because it's boring and dishonest and uncomfortable, like wearing a pair of shoes all day that pinch your feet.

    approx 55% ES, 90% TJ

  9. #1459
    lords of summer EJCC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    173 so/sx
    Posts
    18,147

    Default

    When ESTJs become INFPs...

    Tough love. It's not love if it's tough.

    Seriously, I got a rep comment from someone right after posting this: "I like your INFP side."
    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"

    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    lawful good (D&D) / ravenclaw + wampus (HP) / boros legion (M:TG)
    conscientious > sensitive > serious (oldham)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

  10. #1460
    You have a choice! 21%'s Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    2,621

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    When ESTJs become INFPs...

    Tough love. It's not love if it's tough.

    Seriously, I got a rep comment from someone right after posting this: "I like your INFP side."
    I knew you were all softies inside

    4w5 sp/sx EII

Quick Reply Quick Reply

  • :hi:
  • :bye:
  • :)
  • :D
  • :hug:
  • :happy2:
  • :smile:
  • :wubbie:
  • :wink:
  • ;)
  • :newwink:
  • :cry:
  • :(
  • :doh:
  • :mad:
  • :dry:
  • :unsure:
  • :huh:
  • :shock:
  • :shrug:

Similar Threads

  1. [INTJ] Ask an INTJ
    By logan235711 in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 870
    Last Post: 05-22-2015, 05:04 AM
  2. [ISFJ] How to ask an ISFJ out?
    By Grungemouse in forum The SJ Guardhouse (ESFJ, ISFJ, ESTJ, ISTJ)
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 10-08-2009, 07:04 PM
  3. [MBTItm] How do you spot an ESTJ female?
    By INTJMom in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 38
    Last Post: 12-23-2008, 01:27 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO