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Thread: Ask an ESTJ!

  1. #1441
    inside the lines EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sui generis View Post
    I'm one of the few people who actually enjoys and learns from old-school, typical lecture-type courses-- but I learn best if I can ask tons of questions and interact with the questions with a teacher. I learn best when I'm asking lots of questions and when I'm taking notes. When it's a practical, hands-on kind of thing, I'd like to see someone else do it first, then do it myself with guidance and the ability to ask questions. I appreciate a teacher who challenges me and is patient with all my questions.
    Yes to all of this. You phrased it a lot better than me -- I overthought it

    Things I don't like: GROUP PROJECTS (I seem to always get stuck with people who are stupid and/or lazy) and activities that are supposed to ~make learning fun~. (I can't think of an example right now, but this stuff bugged me when I was younger.)

    I don't know how much of this is type related and how much of it is individual idiosyncrasy.
    Regarding "making learning fun": It depended on the class, for me. When I was in grade school (up to 12th grade), I did so consistently well in every class (regardless of whether I liked it) that I wouldn't be motivated enough to be annoyed by those sorts of things. My standards for myself were the same as the standard for an A in a class, so if it didn't take much to get an A, I wouldn't expect to work very hard, and I wouldn't be very motivated to work hard. (You can tell I wasn't challenged in school... lol. College is a lot harder!) So, I'd come to chem class and hear that we would be watching a (cool but irrelevant) NOVA special, and I'd think "Sweet! NOVA is an awesome show! And it's an excuse not to do classwork!"

    Regarding group projects: they can bug me too, but it really does depend on whether I'm in a group of slackers or not. And on that note:

    Quote Originally Posted by mrcockburn View Post
    Of course, it depends on the class. I hate the ones where group members evaluate each other - because then you have to be nice to the incompetents and slackers, otherwise they'll get revenge on you during evaluation (either make you out to be a tyrannical monster or totally make up lies together and pin YOU as a slacker).

    I'm either ESTP or ENTJ, but regardless, I'm 3w4. Last project, I worked with an incompetent ESTP and a slacking ESFP. My attitude was that aggression was a really bad idea. So, I dredged up every last speck of Fe in me and "encouraged" them while giving them the boring secretarial type tasks. Worked out for me, actually. I got to man the strategy and the creative part, they took care of the details stuff.

    ESTJs....how would you have dealt with group slackers? And assume you could NOT go to the professor, because she despised you as it was...
    I would pretty much do exactly what you did. I would refuse to do all the work myself, and instead pick work for them that I thought they were capable of doing, and that I knew that I could trust them to do. Basic rules of management, you know?

    And if I couldn't trust them to do anything (not even the simplest tasks), I would try to talk to the professor anyway, regardless of whether they hated me or not. Professors are supposed to be objective and not pick favorites, so if the professor were to blow me off, they wouldn't be doing their job, and I could complain to the higher-ups. Sure, the professor would hate me even more, but as long as my grade was good and everything got solved, I wouldn't care.

    (Also, I would ask a TA, if that were an option.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    You remind them at least 10 times a day, via text, mobile, or twatter with a point by point readout of what their tasks. Everytime they don't respond, send a complementary message about how they didn't respond, because if they didn't respond they are probably unaware you were trying to reach them. Make sure their message machine audio file features their name and phone number, and if it doesn't, send another message to remind them of this fact.
    I don't see any resentment in this post at ALL.

    What you're describing, while I relate to it (in a less exaggerated form), is not ESTJ specific. It isn't even SJ specific. Really, any obsessive J can do this. The person I know who is the most like this is my aunt, who is INxJ (tests as INTJ, but used to be INFJ so has very developed Fe).

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    Oh, yes, I should have clarified. What I mean is: My professors always tell me to make activities 'transparent', e.g. we are doing this because... and at the end you should be able to..., and all that. But I think to myself, "Well, wouldn't that make people feel like babies?" :-/ Some people don't like being explicitly told what to do and why they're doing it. Others do, but not so explicitly. Others just want to learn their own way, and. Argh. Well, you see what I mean?
    I do see what you mean. But I'm a pretty easygoing learner. What I said before is true of me, and what sui generis said is true of me. And also, I forgot to mention -- if professors are enthusiastic and obviously love what they do, I'll like the class a whole lot more. But considering your videos, I'm guessing that enthusiasm is already present.

    So I guess my point is: out of all the students you should worry about catering to, ESTJs probably aren't going to be one of them. If they aren't learning what they want to be, they'll find a way to make sure they do. sui generis got it right when she said that it's pretty much just asking a ton of questions and then doing the work, for ESTJs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    Oh, yes, I should have clarified. What I mean is: My professors always tell me to make activities 'transparent', e.g. we are doing this because... and at the end you should be able to..., and all that.
    Because we have to. That's what they all say in the teacher's course. Of course, I tried to teach my way, but lots of students complained about it. They want to know what you expect from them. They want to know what they have to do in order to get good marks.
    And I can get this, too. It should be clear. You don't want to learn in the wrong way. The worst is, of course, when the teacher says he values creative thinking but gives the best marks if you parrot the lesson.
    I'd prefer less "repeating" - none of that nonsense of "This is the subject of the lesson. This is the lesson. This was the lesson." But for the most students this is necessary.

    I wouldn't want to have myself as a teacher. I feel like a traitor.
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  3. #1443
    You have a choice! 21%'s Avatar
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    Default When ESTJs shut down communication

    Dear ESTJs,

    What is the best course of action when an ESTJ shuts down communication and wants to be 'left alone' because they cannot 'figure things out yet'? My ENFJ sister is having a hard time getting through to her ESTJ boyfriend. They fought; he said he felt he had no freedom and was unhappy trying to make her happy all the time. This came to her as a shock, because he never said anything about being unhappy at all. My sister was willing to work things out, but he wanted them to be apart for a while. Is there still hope? Is this a sign he has given up?

    They had broken up and gotten back together several times now -- it's been 9 years since they first met. There is virtually no communication at the moment. From my point of view (especially Fe-dom and -aux) isn't it in Relationships 101 that you should talk about problems before they get bad? (And wouldn't Te want to 'solve' this instead of shutting down communication? :confused

    I have no personal experience with male ESTJs, so any insight would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!
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    The ESTJ, especially a male ESTJ, would want to be sure that "talk about problems/feelings" wouldn't result in an emotional talk about problems/feelings.
    You can imagine this:
    ESTJ: I feel like I have to make you happy all the time.
    ENFJ: But I'm happy! You don't have to worry about that!
    ESTJ: *shuts down*
    This is what the ESTJ fears. He doesn't know what to do to solve the problem. He doesn't want to be reassured. He doesn't want to hear "there is no problem" if to him, there is one. Remember it's very difficult for him to communicate about emotional problems. It gets easier when he's allowed to analyse the emotions instead of acting on them.
    My response would be different.
    ESTJ: I feel like I have to make you happy all the time.
    Me: why do you have that impression?
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  5. #1445
    Biertrinker entropie's Avatar
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    ouh this flawless perfection makes me vomit my intestines.... how can someone be so living in his dream world and not notice it ?

  6. #1446
    You have a choice! 21%'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamske View Post
    The ESTJ, especially a male ESTJ, would want to be sure that "talk about problems/feelings" wouldn't result in an emotional talk about problems/feelings.
    You can imagine this:
    ESTJ: I feel like I have to make you happy all the time.
    ENFJ: But I'm happy! You don't have to worry about that!
    ESTJ: *shuts down*
    This is what the ESTJ fears. He doesn't know what to do to solve the problem. He doesn't want to be reassured. He doesn't want to hear "there is no problem" if to him, there is one. Remember it's very difficult for him to communicate about emotional problems. It gets easier when he's allowed to analyse the emotions instead of acting on them.
    My response would be different.
    ESTJ: I feel like I have to make you happy all the time.
    Me: why do you have that impression?
    Oh, very good point. That's very helpful, Tamske. I'll pass that on. That's perhaps also a general rule on how to communicate effectively with Ts?
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  7. #1447
    Biertrinker entropie's Avatar
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    Ask them to explain themselves ?

    That's the best way to communicate with 99% of civilisation, that's genius !

  8. #1448
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Do ESTJs, in less-than-ideal moments, have a tendency to give extensive advice WITHOUT HAVING HEARD ALL THE FACTS OF THE SITUATION YET (thus sometimes being fairly relevant, but at other times being way way off the mark)? Such has been my impression, I have to admit.

    Do you think this is type related or not? How might this be worked around?
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Do ESTJs, in less-than-ideal moments, have a tendency to give extensive advice WITHOUT HAVING HEARD ALL THE FACTS OF THE SITUATION YET (thus sometimes being fairly relevant, but at other times being way way off the mark)?
    Yes. They want to decide quickly and not lose time on details.
    Do you think this is type related or not? How might this be worked around?
    Give the most relevant facts first.
    I have to communicate very differently to my mother (ENFJ) and to my husband (ESTJ). The former prefers: "Look, I did this and that one said that and then this happened and thus I'd like your help with that." The latter prefers: "Can you do this for me? I can't do it myself because this happened."

    I recently talked with my mom on the phone, telling her she didn't need to make dessert for our next visit, because I wanted to bake a cake. She began a story about my sister. I didn't really have time and attention to hear that at that moment and guessed - "So that means I should bake a bigger cake, because sister's family will visit too?" She was miffed about that... "Hey, I've got to tell how it all came about!" Don't do that to an ESTJ.
    An also quite recent example with the ESTJ:
    Husband: "How was your evening?"
    Me: "Bring a floorcloth."

    So, what do you want?
    Do you want no advice, only consoling? Tell them before you begin: "I need to rant to someone. Please just listen, I don't want advice right now."
    Do you want advice, but there are lots of facts? Tell them: "Look, I want your advice on this subject. Please hear me out first, it's quite a complex situation."
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  10. #1450
    inside the lines EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post
    From my point of view (especially Fe-dom and -aux) isn't it in Relationships 101 that you should talk about problems before they get bad? (And wouldn't Te want to 'solve' this instead of shutting down communication? :confused
    When it comes to emotional, personal problems, ESTJs tend to want to work things out on their own and only involve other people when all else has failed. If this ESTJ is like me, then he may have thought that it was entirely his problem and not his ENFJ's, i.e. that all that he needed was an attitude adjustment and then everything would be fine. So he put it off, tried to change his mindset, and it was completely in vain. Only then did he act.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tamske View Post
    The ESTJ, especially a male ESTJ, would want to be sure that "talk about problems/feelings" wouldn't result in an emotional talk about problems/feelings.
    You can imagine this:
    ESTJ: I feel like I have to make you happy all the time.
    ENFJ: But I'm happy! You don't have to worry about that!
    ESTJ: *shuts down*
    This is what the ESTJ fears. He doesn't know what to do to solve the problem. He doesn't want to be reassured. He doesn't want to hear "there is no problem" if to him, there is one. Remember it's very difficult for him to communicate about emotional problems. It gets easier when he's allowed to analyse the emotions instead of acting on them.
    My response would be different.
    ESTJ: I feel like I have to make you happy all the time.
    Me: why do you have that impression?
    This is a freaking amazing post. It is all exactly right. Bringing that subject up, if you're a male ESTJ, would be opening up, and putting your emotional state at risk, leaving yourself vulnerable. When an ESTJ is in that state, what's best is to talk it out. Like Tamske said here, when ESTJs don't know what to do, they really just want to find a rational solution, because uncertainty worries them and cold hard facts are soothing and reassuring. (Also, ESTJs are REALLY BAD at dealing with irrational/emotional people. Even when people are rational, ESTJs can sometimes walk all over people's feelings without realizing what they're doing, and that gets even worse when people are emotional about it.

    A possible thought process (addendum to Tamske's post):
    ESTJ (internally): I don't know how to fix this relationship. I've been trying so hard, and nothing has worked, and I just can't think of any other options. I guess I'll have to talk to ENFJ, but I'm scared about what will happen; will she yell at me? I can't predict what she's going to do. But I really need reassurance. I need to know that this can be solved. I need closure. So I guess I'll talk to her.
    ESTJ (externally): I feel like I have to make you happy all the time.
    ENFJ: But I'm happy! You don't have to worry about that!
    ESTJ (internally): But I feel obligated to make you happy! Crap, I was right all along; it is my problem. If she really doesn't need me to make her happy, then I shouldn't be think this way. I guess I'll keep soul-searching, like I've been doing.
    ESTJ: *shuts down*

    So if this is what happened, then he probably broke up with her all those other times with an "it's not you it's me" attitude. Of course, if he didn't think that deeply about it (which is possible; I get the feeling that I'm unusually introspective for an ESTJ), then this could have been what happened:

    ESTJ (internally): Damn, this is frustrating. I feel trapped by these obligations to my ENFJ. Maybe I can fix this if I talk to her about it... but I can't guarantee that she'll be rational about it. Ah well, we'll see how it goes.
    ESTJ: I feel like I have to make you happy all the time.
    ENFJ: But I'm happy! You don't have to worry about that!
    ESTJ (internally): Figures. She's not rational. If I elaborate, she'll get really upset with me and I won't know how to fix it; I'm so bad at rebuilding those bridges. I guess I should just avoid the topic.
    ESTJ: *shuts down*

    ... And then the resentment builds and builds until the ESTJ explodes and breaks up with the ENFJ right then and there.

    I dunno. There are so many possibilities! What does everyone else think? Feedback? Does this mesh well with your ESTJ experiences?
    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Do ESTJs, in less-than-ideal moments, have a tendency to give extensive advice WITHOUT HAVING HEARD ALL THE FACTS OF THE SITUATION YET (thus sometimes being fairly relevant, but at other times being way way off the mark)? Such has been my impression, I have to admit.

    Do you think this is type related or not? How might this be worked around?
    I know that it's type related. We do this because of our Te/Si communication, i.e. going through huge stores of information, picking out the "important stuff", and only communicating that with other people. Therefore, we assume that everyone else communicates the way that we do; i.e. giving all the relevant information up front.

    It's funny that you bring this up, because this is one of the main reasons that I can have communication problems with the Ti/Fe people in my life (mostly INFJs but also xNTPs). I ALWAYS find myself in situations like these:

    Ti person: *information about problem*
    Me: Oh, well then you should do this.
    Ti person: But I already did that.
    Me: Okay, what about this?
    Ti person: That would work except for this other important thing.
    Me: Why didn't you say that before???

    Can you really blame us for doing our best with the information we have? Honestly, as long as you don't let the ESTJ interrupt you mid-story, and as long as you give them all the information, then the communication problem is easy to avoid.

    EDIT: Tamske pretty much summed it up already! Man, you don't even need me on this thread anymore. Tamske's got it covered!
    Quote Originally Posted by Nørrsken impersonating EJCC
    It's strange. I keep banning morons, but they keep signing up? What is this?
    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
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    want to ask me something? go for it!

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