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Thread: Ask an ESTJ!

  1. #1371

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    Quote Originally Posted by strychnine View Post
    This assumes that the friendship has equal reciprocation. That both parties are equally trusting of one another, and equally invested in the friendship. That isn't the case here.
    Yeah. I've been burned a few times because I assumed some level of reciprocation. Naive. Freakin' naive of me and while I'm all for giving people a chance or whatever, I hate it about myself. Most of the time I don't realize I'm doing it until it's too late.

    The problem is that she thinks she is entitled to my time, as I mentioned in the last post. It's not so much what I'm doing, but that she thinks her desire to meet with me trumps my ability to do the thing. It's not as serious as a doctor appointment or what not. That would be enough to get her to shut up about meeting up, surely. On the other hand, what I'm doing is not one of what she calls my 'duties', and it's not 'productive' which to her means it's 'free time' which means she is entitled to it.

    We may disagree here, but I don't think anyone is entitled to my time, much less a friend who makes me uncomfortable.

    I guess I'll have to brave the jerk-face behaviour. If she throws a shitstorm, even to the extent of ending the friendship, I can't say there will be much to lose. It might even be a favour, because I am getting to the point of fantasizing about ending the friendship myself.
    No one is entitled to anyone else's time. We agree on that. It sounds like she's a bit too self-centered and needs more friends than just you.

    Jerk-face behavior has mainly come about because I asked the wrong questions or asked for a favor that I thought would be no big deal until it interfered with plans I was unaware of (withholding information). Under any other circumstances it would have been fine, but this little secret trumped me. I get that I'm not number 1 to everybody, but just be honest with me about it.

    Sounds like you've decided, in any case...

    Quote Originally Posted by strychnine View Post
    I would rather end the friendship by refusing to answer, than lie. Not because I'm against lying but because I don't want to continue the friendship.

    Well, that was a helpful realization. Like when you throw the coin in the air and you secretly know which side you want it to land on? Yeah, that. Thanks guys.
    Yes, you have decided. I'm not sure why you hang around this chick if she's such a burden. End the friendship and I bet you'll both be better off.


    PS Sorry if this sounds like an attack on you/your actions. D:
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  2. #1372
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcmartinez84 View Post
    Yeah. I've been burned a few times because I assumed some level of reciprocation. Naive. Freakin' naive of me and while I'm all for giving people a chance or whatever, I hate it about myself. Most of the time I don't realize I'm doing it until it's too late.
    That sucks, I'm sorry you've been burned. :/ This is true, I've had this experience with other people. I like them far more than they will ever like me.
    Just from this standpoint alone I would do well to inform her that I don't feel close to her, or like we have any connection at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by mcmartinez84 View Post
    No one is entitled to anyone else's time. We agree on that. It sounds like she's a bit too self-centered and needs more friends than just you.
    She has other friends but she's the same way with them as far as I can tell. She believes in 'duties' and 'free time', where the latter is supposed to be spent serving her needs, while the former is all you are allowed to do or think about.

    Quote Originally Posted by mcmartinez84 View Post
    Jerk-face behavior has mainly come about because I asked the wrong questions or asked for a favor that I thought would be no big deal until it interfered with plans I was unaware of (withholding information). Under any other circumstances it would have been fine, but this little secret trumped me. I get that I'm not number 1 to everybody, but just be honest with me about it.
    I get that. But this is what I figured -- the information withholding affected you somehow. I don't see how the information I'm not telling her could possibly affect her... no I really can't think of a way... which IMO makes it a totally different situation. I still see the general problem with info withholding, though.

    Yes, you have decided. I'm not sure why you hang around this chick if she's such a burden. End the friendship and I bet you'll both be better off.

    PS Sorry if this sounds like an attack on you/your actions. D:
    It's fine, no worries . I think you're right. She is a burden. I can't imagine she likes me much either, she probably has some 'issue' where she demands people's attention.
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  3. #1373
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by strychnine View Post
    Well, do the ESTJs in question still enjoy it if they lose? I would imagine frustration in that case, not happiness?
    Do baseball players suddenly stop enjoying baseball when they lose?

    Quote Originally Posted by strychnine View Post
    Ok, I guess we have different meanings for debate. I don't care if it's competitive or not. I would suggest competitiveness = argument, actually.
    In order to debate one must engage in argumentation. You can have non-competitive debate (in the formal sense) in which there is no "official" winner or loser in the end, but the act of advocating for one side over another is fundamentally competitive. Whenever there is contention in discourse, there is competition.

    Quote Originally Posted by strychnine View Post
    Sometimes topics blend together -- I don't think going to a closely related topic to flesh out your argument invalidates debate.
    I guess if it's relevant to the arguments you're making, sure, but then it's not really a topic change; you're just using another subject matter to make an analogical argument that's ultimately in support of your original point, in the original topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by strychnine View Post
    I think I can easily take no side as well -- I can argue my points and the other person's points. What is that? A discussion? No, not IMO. It's a debate. There are two sides butting heads. It's not my fault if the other person doesn't make good points, so I have to argue for them to make it worthwhile.
    Taking either side at any given point in a debate (devil's advocate) is not the same as taking no sides. Taking no sides would mean that you are not engaged in the debate at all. As for the bolded, it can't be much of a debate if you're making points for your interlocutor .

    Quote Originally Posted by strychnine View Post
    This conversation is slightly pointless, but yeah, I think I have to disagree with you.
    Well, I'll go ahead and agree that this conversation is indeed pointless. I know you were originally referring only to your specific SJ friends, but I was broadening the topic because I feel like that's a common perception of most SJs on this forum. And since this is the ESTJ thread...

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  4. #1374
    don't fence me in sui generis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Since ESTJs are not exactly the most ethical type, I don't see why, if they enjoyed debate in the first place (which they may or may not, though it seems that they're the type of people who would), they wouldn't also like to play devil's advocate.
    No, speak for yourself. Since when are ESTJs unethical? Being ethical is VERY important to me. Also, devil's advocate shit pisses me off.
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  5. #1375

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    Quote Originally Posted by sui generis View Post
    No, speak for yourself. Since when are ESTJs unethical? Being ethical is VERY important to me. Also, devil's advocate shit pisses me off.
    From my experience with one, I completely agree with this statement.
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  6. #1376

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    Quote Originally Posted by sui generis View Post
    No, speak for yourself. Since when are ESTJs unethical? Being ethical is VERY important to me. Also, devil's advocate shit pisses me off.
    Ethical would be individual bases, rather than type based. My father is an ESTJ of the extremely unhealthy variety. He has a lot of ethics that he doesn't hold himself up to but demands through enforcement of any kind, that everyone else live up to those ethics.

    The friend who's an ESTJ, is ethical and lives up to her ethics. But she too extroverts her ethics through a water drop on forehead technique.

  7. #1377
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sui generis View Post
    No, speak for yourself. Since when are ESTJs unethical? Being ethical is VERY important to me. Also, devil's advocate shit pisses me off.
    "Unethical" was a bad word choice. I didn't mean to say that they're not ethical in general (since, as Jenaphor pointed out, how ethical you are is not really type-based), I just meant in the context of debate. It's often said that those who argue both sides of a debate are sophists (which is a kind of unethical practice), and I meant to say that I don't think ESTJs would have qualms with setting aside their own feelings on the matter in order to argue a side for practical gain (like a lawyer.)
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  8. #1378
    inside the lines EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by strychnine View Post
    It strikes me as odd that there is any other reason to debate!
    To be fair, I like fact-collecting etc as much as anyone, but I like it when all involved parties go into it admitting to themselves and everyone else that they don't have all information on the topic, and they're essentially going on a fact-finding mission... instead of going into it as if you have a strong opinion and then switching opinions without warning. Honestly, I think the whole communication issue would be solved if the other party would just say "I don't necessarily agree with this, BUT..." or if they would make sure not to sound or appear confrontational. In my mind, when you get emotionally involved in a debate, it's something you agree with. And if you get really passionate about both sides, that confuses the shit out of me!
    like 'moral issues'.
    Definitely. The statement before this I completely disagree with (because I don't want to walk on eggshells with my friends), but this statement is totally true. Nothing good ever comes out of debating morals - unless both parties are debating morals that they are emotionally detached from.
    Question...
    How can I keep information private from an STJ? I am going to be doing an activity for 2 hours that I don't want the STJ to know about.
    ...What do I say here? Is she asking because she actually wants to know? I don't want to lie to her, but I don't want to tell her. It doesn't concern her. It's personal. I really don't think it's relevant.
    Is she a jealous person - to the point that if you were vague, she'd keep asking questions? If she is, I have no good advice for you. But if not, you could just say "I have a meeting" or "I'm going to a lunch" or "I'm meeting some people" or something along those lines.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    Don't know about other ENTJs but no, I don't nag and hate being nagged. It's okay for someone to want to live a different life and be different. Perhaps that's the cognitive function difference of Ni vs. Si. Ni can shift perspectives but Si is attached to concrete values.
    Makes sense. And it explains how my INTJ friends can see something done wrong, complain about it, do nothing to fix it, and not feel bad that they didn't do anything - which has always baffled me.
    When she nags me, I push her back and she shuts up for awhile. Then it starts all over again and I keep pushing her back. While in the past, I've put up with her boundary pushing, lately, I've been losing patience. Tempted to just cut her off.
    Probably better to tell her exactly why you're doing what you're doing instead of what she wants you to do. That will reassure her - all she really wants is a reason to not be concerned. And if you show (in a non-snippy way ) that you're on top of things, it ought to work. I know that's temporary, but it does sounds like she's an incurable nag-er so there's almost so much I can do. I'm sorry it's causing you trouble though
    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Really? ESTJs? The one's I've known have been the "debate for fun" type, and they're in it to win it.
    I'm not like that, and I know many other ESTJs who aren't - same experience that strychnine had.
    Although that competitiveness is probably slightly type-related, I'd say that it's just as much
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Do baseball players suddenly stop enjoying baseball when they lose?
    One of the reasons why I hate playing sports is because I'm terrible at them. I play, I do poorly, I see other people doing incredibly well and I beat myself up for not living up to those standards.

    But if I were any good - i.e. if I had the natural talent of other people who play sports for fun - I would get to the point where losing didn't bother me as much. My faith in my talent would overcome any possible insecurity over losing.
    In order to debate one must engage in argumentation. You can have non-competitive debate (in the formal sense) in which there is no "official" winner or loser in the end, but the act of advocating for one side over another is fundamentally competitive. Whenever there is contention in discourse, there is competition.
    I'm okay with debate, as long as I'm emotionally detached and am only talking about facts. When debates get into Feeling territory, I start to get emotionally involved, and start to take the debate (and its outcome) personally... and generally don't feel good about the outcome, even if I win, because I hate being upset and emotionally involved for long spans of time, and I have a hard time transitioning out of that bad mood very quickly.
    Taking either side at any given point in a debate (devil's advocate) is not the same as taking no sides. Taking no sides would mean that you are not engaged in the debate at all. As for the bolded, it can't be much of a debate if you're making points for your interlocutor
    I guess not being engaged in debate is my favorite position to be in, then. When I'm not engaged, and I'm "playing devil's advocate" and not taking sides, it's because I'm collecting information in order to find the right position to take on the issue. I want to hear both pros and cons, because I care more about being right than about winning. That's another reason why I don't like debate that much; I get no satisfaction from winning a debate with the wrong argument. There's no point. It's rhetoric. I hate rhetoric.

    Oh, btw - when did you become ESTJ? Thought you were an NP... or an SP... and for the record you don't seem like an ESTJ to me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    a water drop on forehead technique.
    :confused:
    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    "Unethical" was a bad word choice. I didn't mean to say that they're not ethical in general (since, as Jenaphor pointed out, how ethical you are is not really type-based), I just meant in the context of debate. It's often said that those who argue both sides of a debate are sophists (which is a kind of unethical practice), and I meant to say that I don't think ESTJs would have qualms with setting aside their own feelings on the matter in order to argue a side for practical gain (like a lawyer.)
    Depends on their Fi. I, personally, would hate to be a lawyer - or at least, I would hate to be a criminal attorney - because I don't think that I, in good conscience, could defend a guilty person. I would argue that NTs would be much better at detaching their feelings from that sort of situation; some of the best debaters I know are NTs, and the only SJs I know who are good at debate are SFJs, i.e. SJs without the Fi problem.
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  9. #1379
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post

    The thing about the idea of "tradition" or "counter-culture" is that it's so incredibly subjective. ESTJs aren't traditional for the sake of tradition; the only way that they follow that stereotype is that they don't like to go against things that they are used to, with the very important qualification being that they believe that those traditions are right/just/fair/etc - and that they like them. ESTJs can be as rebellious as anyone, as long as they believe that the "norm" isn't worth joining. As counter-stereotypical as this may seem, ESTJs can be fiercely independent people, and if something "normal" ends up riling up their Fi, then they WILL rebel against it.

    So, I can imagine a hypothetical situation behind why your ESTJ became an anarchist biker: He sees people who are bikers/anarchists. He is curious and learns more about it. He compares that lifestyle to his current one and deems it "better" in a number of ways that he could probably list for you - and if anyone argues with him, he leaves each argument feeling progressively more secure in his future decision to live that way. Finally, if his friends/family oppose the decision, he tells them that he'll do it anyway, and lists for them all the reasons that he chose. (That is, if he respects his family. Otherwise, it'll be "Fuck you and your arbitrary rules! I'm leaving.") Not that this is what happened with him, but it would make sense to me.
    Thanks. This really makes sense to me, actually. Especially the bit about preferring to follow traditions and the status quo, but only if they like and agree with them. I think that makes a lot of sense for this ESTJ, also in terms of why he eventually became a Christian and totally changed his lifestyle - he was looking for something and decided that this was what he was looking for. Oddly enough I think the anarchist stuff probably had some of the attributes that he ultimately found in Christianity (being an "anarchist" doesn't necessarily mean blowing things up... ) He did say something to me about how all the drugs had a lot to do with a search for the meaning of life, rather than just "having fun".

    Your comments actually make me think of my (probable) ISTJ brother as well. Same functions, different order, right? Except with him it was a bit the reverse from the ESTJ... My parents and I are Christians and my bro was raised one as well but decided he no longer wanted to be involved with the church about ten years ago. We were unhappy about that, and he knew/knows that and I know he is not happy about having contributed to us feeling like that, but it hasn't changed his mind. But this doesn't change the fact that he follows his life with a great deal of integrity and is attached to tradition and "the way things are/should be"...but only where he agrees with and likes them, as you say. He often brings his liking for tradition and his resistance to change up in a joking kind of way: when we all get together as a family now (doesn't happen very often as I live on the other side of the world) there are certain "traditions" he always wants to follow, ie. watching certain movies, bringing up certain family jokes, that sort of thing... He hates, I mean HATES, change for the sake of change, whereas I have mixed feelings about it, but can see the point in some contexts anyway. He'd rather hear one of his fav bands get a bit formulaic and release similar music album after album, because he thinks they do it well, rather than them branching out and experimenting with something that might not work so well (even if it resulted in artistic growth ultimately.)
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  10. #1380
    Anew Leaf
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    Dear ESTJ,

    A. Glitter or hugs
    B. Pudding or cake
    C. Time machine or washing machine.
    D. Football or reading.
    E. Star trek tng or star trek original
    F. Blue or red
    G. House or houseboat.

    . My research thanks you

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